Boxing Thread

[hutmaster]

Seriolusly, get me some of the weed you are smoking. Klitchkos only chance against the best heavyweights ever would simply be that size wise he is a giant compared to most. Heavys used to be 176 lbs and over, most like Marciano and Joe Lewis fought around 180-185 pounds. Today Heavyweights start at 201 pounds. Putting size difference aside and just comparing skill, I contend that Klitchko isnt even a top 10 all time heavyweight. I think Lennox Lewis sucked too, call me crazy. He was boring as fuck to watch and fought a bunch of nobodys. Ali had to contend with Liston, Frazier, Foreman, Kenny Norton, Ron Lyle, Jerry Quarry.... IMO Klitchko and Lewis were simply the best of their era but historically far down the list of the goat.

I consider myself to be somewhat of a boxing historian, and I contend that both Lennox Lewis and Klitschko (especially Klitschko) would have had a better than 50% chance of beating the greatest heavyweights of any era.

My father, who was a huge boxing fan and watched in person all the greats you just listed, including going to sparring sessions of Ali and Frazier, went to the Catskills to watch Lewis train back when he was champ. He said he never saw anyone with a jab like his, and just his overall sheer power was more impressive than anything he had ever seen. Both he and Klitschko, especially Klitschko, IMO would just be too big and skilled for every HW before them. Aside from Ali, Foreman literally destroyed everyone during that era, and he was the closest thing to these guys, but had a lot less boxing knowledge and skill in his prime. IMO both of these guys would have been too skilled for Foreman. Frazier, no shot, Ken Norton, nope, Ron Lyle and Punch Drunk Jerry Quarry...lol! The only one that would have stood a chance would have been Ali, but in the end again I think these two would have beaten him up past round 9, especially in a 15 round fight. Just too big and powerful with great defense, especially Klitschko.

We are somewhat comparing apples to oranges. My contention is that Klitchcko competes with past greats solely because he is a giant compared to them, not because his skillset is remotely equal. Can you say with a straight face that Klitchkos boxing skills are as good as Ali? Guys today really should be called Super Heavyweights.

[JMM]

Speaking of heavyweights

Anthony Joshua - British fighter who you should remember from winning Olympic Gold in London... He's won all of his 10 fights since turning pro and looks the real deal... an absolute rolls royce of a fighter, and also a real gentleman.

Granted, he's fought mainly bums thus far. But i'll be amazed if he doesn't go on to be the most exciting heavyweight since Tyson.


One day this guy will be selling out the biggest boxing venues in Vegas and New York.

If Joshua keeps his head on straight, and is brought along correctly, he's going to be really, really good.

[JMM]

I consider myself to be somewhat of a boxing historian, and I contend that both Lennox Lewis and Klitschko (especially Klitschko) would have had a better than 50% chance of beating the greatest heavyweights of any era.

My father, who was a huge boxing fan and watched in person all the greats you just listed, including going to sparring sessions of Ali and Frazier, went to the Catskills to watch Lewis train back when he was champ. He said he never saw anyone with a jab like his, and just his overall sheer power was more impressive than anything he had ever seen. Both he and Klitschko, especially Klitschko, IMO would just be too big and skilled for every HW before them. Aside from Ali, Foreman literally destroyed everyone during that era, and he was the closest thing to these guys, but had a lot less boxing knowledge and skill in his prime. IMO both of these guys would have been too skilled for Foreman. Frazier, no shot, Ken Norton, nope, Ron Lyle and Punch Drunk Jerry Quarry...lol! The only one that would have stood a chance would have been Ali, but in the end again I think these two would have beaten him up past round 9, especially in a 15 round fight. Just too big and powerful with great defense, especially Klitschko.

We are somewhat comparing apples to oranges. My contention is that Klitchcko competes with past greats solely because he is a giant compared to them, not because his skillset is remotely equal. Can you say with a straight face that Klitchkos boxing skills are as good as Ali? Guys today really should be called Super Heavyweights.

That's like asking if you can say with a straight face that Manny Pacquiao's skills are on par with Floyd Mayweather. Klitschko fights an entirely different style than Ali did. You can't say that one guys skill set was "better" when they were so very different. I can tell you that on top of being an insane amount stronger, that Klitschko is also better defensively than Ali was.

Ali was great, but he wasn't some unbeatable force (not implying that's what you're saying at all). I think he beats a guy like Mike Tyson, but loses horribly to a guy like Wladimir Klitschko. Lennox Lewis would beat Ali 10 times out of 10.

[hutmaster]

We are somewhat comparing apples to oranges. My contention is that Klitchcko competes with past greats solely because he is a giant compared to them, not because his skillset is remotely equal. Can you say with a straight face that Klitchkos boxing skills are as good as Ali? Guys today really should be called Super Heavyweights.

That's like asking if you can say with a straight face that Manny Pacquiao's skills are on par with Floyd Mayweather. Klitschko fights an entirely different style than Ali did. You can't say that one guys skill set was "better" when they were so very different. I can tell you that on top of being an insane amount stronger, that Klitschko is also better defensively than Ali was.

Ali was great, but he wasn't some unbeatable force (not implying that's what you're saying at all). I think he beats a guy like Mike Tyson, but loses horribly to a guy like Wladimir Klitschko. Lennox Lewis would beat Ali 10 times out of 10.

You and Vegas both keep ignoring my main point.....The ONLY reason Klitchko or Lewis would have a chance at beating an ALI is because they outweigh him by 100 pounds, NOT because they are better fighters. I will concede some that I have a harder time giving Klitchko any credit for the heavyweight division has been a total joke for years. Even now its like Saturday morning wrestling with this contrived fake storyline of Shannon Briggs following Klitschko around to build up some bogus rivalry. Briggs was never that good and now he is 42 and over the hill.

[JMM]

That's like asking if you can say with a straight face that Manny Pacquiao's skills are on par with Floyd Mayweather. Klitschko fights an entirely different style than Ali did. You can't say that one guys skill set was "better" when they were so very different. I can tell you that on top of being an insane amount stronger, that Klitschko is also better defensively than Ali was.

Ali was great, but he wasn't some unbeatable force (not implying that's what you're saying at all). I think he beats a guy like Mike Tyson, but loses horribly to a guy like Wladimir Klitschko. Lennox Lewis would beat Ali 10 times out of 10.

You and Vegas both keep ignoring my main point.....The ONLY reason Klitchko or Lewis would have a chance at beating an ALI is because they outweigh him by 100 pounds, NOT because they are better fighters. I will concede some that I have a harder time giving Klitchko any credit for the heavyweight division has been a total joke for years. Even now its like Saturday morning wrestling with this contrived fake storyline of Shannon Briggs following Klitschko around to build up some bogus rivalry. Briggs was never that good and now he is 42 and over the hill.

I'm not ignoring the point. I told you, Klitschko is stronger and has better defense. He uses his reach to beat guys. It's not like he uses his size to lean on them and wear them down. Taller guys with reach get beat all the time. Lewis, too. They use their strengths. Ali was fast and had great footwork. He didn't have great defense or a lot of power and would get hit too much.

They have about 30 pounds on Ali. Weighing more doesn't just automatically equal winning a fight.

[vegas1369]

You and Vegas both keep ignoring my main point.....The ONLY reason Klitchko or Lewis would have a chance at beating an ALI is because they outweigh him by 100 pounds, NOT because they are better fighters. I will concede some that I have a harder time giving Klitchko any credit for the heavyweight division has been a total joke for years. Even now its like Saturday morning wrestling with this contrived fake storyline of Shannon Briggs following Klitschko around to build up some bogus rivalry. Briggs was never that good and now he is 42 and over the hill.

I'm not ignoring the point. I told you, Klitschko is stronger and has better defense. He uses his reach to beat guys. It's not like he uses his size to lean on them and wear them down. Taller guys with reach get beat all the time. Lewis, too. They use their strengths. Ali was fast and had great footwork. He didn't have great defense or a lot of power and would get hit too much.

They have about 30 pounds on Ali. Weighing more doesn't just automatically equal winning a fight.

Tyson beat plenty of guys that had 30+ pounds on him. Size does not equal an automatic win obv.

BTW, Ali was not exactly small. He was 6'3" and usually fought in the 215lb range. He was only 4lbs lighter than Foreman when they fought.

IMO, what made Ali so great, aside from amazing footwork, was he had the best chin ever. That pretty much worked against him in the long run though. He simply got hit way too much over the span of his career, and if he had any weakness it was definitely his defense. That is why I feel Lewis and Klitschko would have beaten him. Their defense was far superior to his and would have worn him down over 15 rounds.

BTW, still kind of chuckling that you think Punch Drunk Jerry would have stood a chance vs these two.

I would throw in Earnie Shavers over the majority of your list. He could have knocked anyone out, and would have had the best shot at scoring an early round KO.

[vegas1369]

Holmes in his prime would have been very interesting too. Holmes does not get near enough credit. Probably the best jab in the history of the division.

[JMM]

Holmes in his prime would have been very interesting too. Holmes does not get near enough credit. Probably the best jab in the history of the division.

Damn straight. He doesn't get near the respect he should. Jab was fucking lethal.

[ErickAA]

So if you do a hypothetical tournament of 12 round fights of all the heavyweight greats in their prime is Lennox Lewis the favorite?

[vegas1369]

So if you do a hypothetical tournament of 12 round fights of all the heavyweight greats in their prime is Lennox Lewis the favorite?

Personally I would rank Klitschko over Lewis.

If this was a betting A vs B scenario I would rank in this order...

Klitschko

Lewis

Ali

Holmes

Foreman

Tyson

Frazier

the rest...

[hutmaster]

I'm not ignoring the point. I told you, Klitschko is stronger and has better defense. He uses his reach to beat guys. It's not like he uses his size to lean on them and wear them down. Taller guys with reach get beat all the time. Lewis, too. They use their strengths. Ali was fast and had great footwork. He didn't have great defense or a lot of power and would get hit too much.

They have about 30 pounds on Ali. Weighing more doesn't just automatically equal winning a fight.

Tyson beat plenty of guys that had 30+ pounds on him. Size does not equal an automatic win obv.

BTW, Ali was not exactly small. He was 6'3" and usually fought in the 215lb range. He was only 4lbs lighter than Foreman when they fought.

IMO, what made Ali so great, aside from amazing footwork, was he had the best chin ever. That pretty much worked against him in the long run though. He simply got hit way too much over the span of his career, and if he had any weakness it was definitely his defense. That is why I feel Lewis and Klitschko would have beaten him. Their defense was far superior to his and would have worn him down over 15 rounds.

BTW, still kind of chuckling that you think Punch Drunk Jerry would have stood a chance vs these two.

I would throw in Earnie Shavers over the majority of your list. He could have knocked anyone out, and would have had the best shot at scoring an early round KO.

Ok I will concede Quarry...he certainly wasn't an all time great but he was tough as hell. Shavers obviously better than Quarry.

[hutmaster]

So if you do a hypothetical tournament of 12 round fights of all the heavyweight greats in their prime is Lennox Lewis the favorite?

Personally I would rank Klitschko over Lewis.

If this was a betting A vs B scenario I would rank in this order...

Klitschko

Lewis

Ali

Holmes

Foreman

Tyson

Frazier

the rest...

Retire from bartending and become a comedian. Klitscko has great D? Yeah because he fights guys 3x the bum he is.

[Lord of the Fraud]

So if you do a hypothetical tournament of 12 round fights of all the heavyweight greats in their prime is Lennox Lewis the favorite?

Personally I would rank Klitschko over Lewis.

If this was a betting A vs B scenario I would rank in this order...

Frank Bruno

Klitschko

Henry Cooper

Lewis

Ali

Holmes

Foreman

Tyson

Frazier

the rest...

Fixed

[vegas1369]

Personally I would rank Klitschko over Lewis.

If this was a betting A vs B scenario I would rank in this order...

Klitschko

Lewis

Ali

Holmes

Foreman

Tyson

Frazier

the rest...

Retire from bartending and become a comedian. Klitscko has great D? Yeah because he fights guys 3x the bum he is.

I have already taken your advice and retired from bartending TYVM

Weiss is currently coaching me on how to do standup.

[hutmaster]

Retire from bartending and become a comedian. Klitscko has great D? Yeah because he fights guys 3x the bum he is.

I have already taken your advice and retired from bartending TYVM

Weiss is currently coaching me on how to do standup.

LOL......have you really quit bartending? What are you doing now if you don't mind sharing.

[JMM]

So if you do a hypothetical tournament of 12 round fights of all the heavyweight greats in their prime is Lennox Lewis the favorite?

Honestly, I think that he is. I don't think I'd make anyone the favorite over him.

[vegas1369]

So if you do a hypothetical tournament of 12 round fights of all the heavyweight greats in their prime is Lennox Lewis the favorite?

Honestly, I think that he is. I don't think I'd make anyone the favorite over him.

Vitali was beating him before they stopped that fight IMO. Shame that cut caused that stoppage, we would have most likely seen a Klitschko victory. I think Vlad is even better than Vitali, so I would rank him #1.

[vegas1369]

I have already taken your advice and retired from bartending TYVM

Weiss is currently coaching me on how to do standup.

LOL......have you really quit bartending? What are you doing now if you don't mind sharing.

No more shines Billy...

Maybe you didn't hear about it, you've been away a long time. They didn't go up there and tell you. I don't shine shoes anymore.


In all seriousness, I felt it was time for a change. Bartending was fun, great money, socially awesome, but time to move on. Right now I'm just taking it easy and planning my next move.

[HEX]

What Hut is saying is fucking stupid. However, I would say that Wlad is more effective than skilled. It's just that he's so incredibly effective. Being huge is one thing, but learning to use it like that is another. Has made for a bunch of ugly wins, though.

Anthony Joshua is definitely the possible future of the division.

Klitschko was cleaning Lewis' clock and would have won for certain were it not for that hideous cut. Lewis was also in decline, so Vitali v. Lennox in their primes is a very tough call. I would lean towards Vitali, who imo is the better of the Klitshkos, though Wlad has to be ranked higher historically because of the numbers.

[ToasterOven]

Wilder is such a dick, though. After seeing him beat up that little guy in the gym, I'm looking forward to the bout where he gets put to sleep.