Quote Originally Posted by BetCheckBet View Post
Oh and instead of using bullshit anecdotle evidence and faulty logic maybe we should actually look at an aggregate measure of objective evidence....

Prayer and health: review, meta-analysis, and research agenda.

Masters KS, Spielmans GI.


Source

Department of Psychology, Syracuse University, 430 Huntington Hall, Syracuse, NY 13244-2340, USA. kemaster@syr.edu


Erratum in
J Behav Med. 2007 Oct;30(5):447.


Abstract

This article reviews the empirical research on prayer and health and offers a research agenda to guide future studies. Though many people practice prayer and believe it affects their health, scientific evidence is limited. In keeping with a general increase in interest in spirituality and complementary and alternative treatments, prayer has garnered attention among a growing number of behavioral scientists. The effects of distant intercessory prayer are examined by meta-analysis and it is concluded that no discernable effects can be found. The literature regarding frequency of prayer, content of prayer, and prayer as a coping strategy is subsequently reviewed. Suggestions for future research include the conduct of experimental studies based on conceptual models that include precise operationally defined constructs, longitudinal investigations with proper measure of control variables, and increased use of ecological momentary assessment techniques.

And FINALLY one of you from the other side finally has the brains and wherewithal to say something relevant. I can work with this.

Ok it's not great, but it's something. I gotta avoid the epic posts here...

So I make a claim to a science minded person that prayer exists. How would I ever prove such a thing?

Well you might reply through the scientific method of course. And just as you would have predicted, prayer provided no measurable benefit.

Does this PROVE prayer never works? Hardy. Then again, it's nearly impossible (most of the time) to ever prove prayer did anything.

But what would Doyle say? If you had a time machine and could go back to the point before his surgery and take all the prayer away, would he be ok with that? Certainly not, because he HAS FAITH that prayer did in fact help him.

What I'm getting at is an underlying truth- that the value placed on something like faith and prayer is dependent on it's intrinsic value to the person in question. In Doyle's case, it would be hard to point at any one thing and say "see look here, yes that is prayer at work choking out this group of cancer cells" but yet he would fight to the death to keep the prayers he received. Seems foolish no?

That is the nature of faith. It's hard to comprehend or understand but then again, the value isnt for you to decide, its for the person being prayed over, as the value is really theirs.

And thus yes I would like for anyone with faith to pray for my buddy Dan, and me if so inclined, and I would appreciate it and so would he. Doesn't matter if you don't, but certainly heckling me for asking is a bit childish no?


Also of significance to the article is this premise of "if prayer is tested in a controlled setting and fails to produce, that means it's not real correct?" I want to agree with that, in fact my whole life I did, but unfortunately I have witnessed three times now one in my life twice in my friends that prayer can lead directly to miracles.

Just not when I do it.

And not when in a lab setting.

Scuter would say correctly (Luke 14:33) "So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple."
Forsake all that you have meaning giving your heart and soul to God. The material angle can be used, as in give away all your possesions, but really you cannot be a true Disciple of God (a Christian) without first turning over ALL THAT YOU HAVE.

I apparently can not do this, I can't turn away from sin. Give up porn alcohol staring at girls butts and such, the Bible says "flesh LOVES SIN" for we are born into it, and i no different than anyone.

And thus my praying, though I mean well, doesn't seem to do much, and I can feel the hesitation within me, like I KNOW I am not where I should be, and thus my praying is useless.

My buddy on the other hand, let's just call him a modern day saint. He really is. Not a perfect Christian, but 10x no 100x the Christian I am. Praying is easy for him, he enjoys it, and it produces. You know all those Biblical stories about not needing to worry about food water or shelter because God will provide? And then He does and you shake your head? My buddy literally would be one of those blessed few getting food and water rained on them, finding whatever they need etc.

Case in point- he came back from overseas (iraq) and needed a car, but had no money. He prayed for God to give him a car, and the next day he was essentially offered a car by a guy who owned a lot and had a very soft heart for Marines. (I still have this car to this day, 1991 sunbird. Although its almost never ran right, despite working flawlessly for a year before my friend gave it to me) (I mean literally a year of perfect service I get the keys imeed the head gasket blows! And since then, I've replaced over a dozen expensive parts, and RIGHT NOW that car is sitting in my driveway and won't run)

He was broke about two years ago and prayed for God to provide some toys for his kids. This story breaks down much longer than I want to write, essentially his son likes art and his daughter wanted a dartboard, the place my buddy was staying he wasn't paying rent (the lady loves marines and he's been there 2.5 years without rent- I mean...)so a dartboard is out of the question (holes in walls, not happening) so he goes to this gift exchange thing were you essentially can pull out at random from a box anonymously given gifts, he pulls out an oil painting set for kids and a MAGNET DART BOARD.

MAGNETIC DART BOARD

Jasep your'e so smart, what are the odds of this happening? How many possible gifts might people buy, thus making it so unlikely for there to be one or the other even in the box, let alone both, and for him to pull both? Astronomical.

And let's move to my laptop finally. when my buddy got back this last tour in february, my mac was shot. Only half the screen worked (dropped it) and my trackpad was shattered (tried cleaning around the sides with some kind of thin metal and it cracked, then just cracked more and more). I went to apple THREE TIMES begging for them to fix it and they quoted me $600 for the screen and about $250 for the trackpad each time.

Buddy prayed for me, told me that he had, and a few days later I went to apple to get lion put back on and the genius rep was SUPER nice. Comes back says "I have lion up for you, hey I noticed your trackpad is a little messed up, you want me to take care of that for you?" Um ok....he comes back out 30 min later and its fixed and says its only $50 because the labor was still under warranty, I just paid for the part. STUNNED. Ok, so then he says "oh and also I noticed your screen is a little broken (it was 70% gone by then) and your labor is covered by warranty, you'd pay $250" I was ecstatic!!! I come back to get my machine 2 days later, and she's good as new. And then the kicker-

a genius rep walks up to collect payment, and says "Oh, apple says you dn't owe them anything, have a nice day".

I have all receipts to back this up, I am not lying.

In the history of apple have any of you heard of shit like this? Cuz I sure haven't.

Maybe any one of these things could be chance, but not all of them. Not possible. If you the reader could see this all randomly happening, then you believe in the occurance of something SO UNLIKELY that it's almost impossible.

Not unlike the possibility of God existing though no? You'd say that is almost impossible as well.

Blaise Pascal "In faith there is enough light for those who want to believe and enough shadows to blind those who don't."