NFL ruling on kneeling for national anthem

[Dan Druff]

I don't think Patriotism has much to do with either side of this debate.

On one side is some black athletes saying "Fuck you white asshole and your racist country" in their own way.

And on the other side is White America saying, "Look at those uppity n*****s. We need to put a stop to this right now."

I think that pretending patriotism is a motive at all for anyone is disingenuous. I also find it completely intellectually dishonest saying the protesters are showing their true patriotism by protesting. No they aren't, they are expressing exactly what I said above, so lets not pretend otherwise.

I'm on neither of these sides.

I am saying, "The NFL is a private business and has the right to tell players to stop engaging in divisive and controversial political protest while on the field."

[Dan Druff]

In response to anonamoose:

There is no collective bargaining agreement with the union indicating that the players have the right to engage in on-field political protest. While the union may express dismay at this new rule (since it introduces a new avenue to fine/discipline players), I do not believe they could mount a successful legal challenge to this. I also don't believe the union as a whole feels strongly enough about this to strike over this matter.

wrong, they can. 5 seconds of Google would save you from looking dumb.

I didn't say they couldn't mount a legal challenge. I said they couldn't mount a SUCCESSFUL legal challenge. Here's a good and fairly neutral analysis: https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/05/23/nf...anthem-protest

It's not a slam dunk for the league, but I think most of these challenges would fail. The NFL could fall back on the "conduct detrimental to the club" clause, which allows players to be suspended or fined for any conduct which harms the club. It wouldn't be difficult for the NFL to make the argument that kneeling during the anthem upsets a large portion of the fan base, and therefore is detrimental.

Furthermore, as these actions are being done by individuals and not by a group of players as a whole, it can't be framed as an attack on the union itself.

Additionally, the national anthem has played at NFL games since before any current player was born. Every single NFL player was aware that the national anthem was part of the game. They chose to work for the NFL teams anyway. By accepting the money and signing those huge contracts, they have accepted all terms of employment, which includes agreeing to follow directions of the employer (aside from anything excluded by prior agreement via the union).

zzzz. Not how unions work

zzzzz Yes that is how unions work.

Through collective bargaining, the union and employer come to specific agreements how employees can and cannot be disciplined, among other things. Unless the right to politically protest during games was specifically in the CBA (which it wasn't), the kneeling can be construed as "conduct detrimental to the team", and the players can be fined/suspended according to that term of the CBA.

[Dan Druff]

It is clear that most of the dedicated NFL fan base does NOT like the anthem kneeling, and wants to see it stop.

Clear from what? Watching the Sean Hannity show?

No, clear from polls:

https://www.aol.com/article/news/201...licy/23443820/

Yahoo Sports took a poll and it went 52-33 in favor of the NFL's decision.

So Silicon Valley based Yahoo is Fox News now?

[MrTickle]

Druff, you have time to write multiple huge responses but you can't give us radio? Get off PFA and get broadcasting

[Dan Druff]

Because this takes a relatively short time and radio takes 5-7 hours. Don't have anywhere near that kind of time until June 1.

[Lord of the Fraud]

Last time I was at a soccer game where they played the national anthem (only happens in finals) we sung a different song over the top of the national anthem. Pretty sure we booed it the time before that. There's no place for the patriotic political shit in sport.

Your distraught keeper certainly walked alone on Saturday night - and still is....... Don't make an error and YNWA.

 

[Dan Druff]

The problem with this entire topic is that it's getting muddied by the "patriotism" argument, which the left actually loves because it makes their unreasonable position look more reasonable.

So when the narrative goes like this:

Right: It's unpatriotic to kneel during the anthem, and this shouldn't be allowed! Good for the NFL!

Left: Actually, political protest is very patriotic, and has taken place since the beginning of this country.

... then the left appears to be winning the debate, and the right looks like a bunch of flag-waving rubes.


But frame it the way it should really be framed:

Right: These players are very highly paid employees of NFL teams, and their on-field political protests are upsetting the majority of fans and harming the NFL's brand. The NFL has every right to demand they stop this behavior while at work. Furthermore, the NFL is allowing any player who doesn't want to participate to opt out and stay in the locker room.

Left: No!! Black people are oppressed! They need a voice! They need TV time! Protest should be allowed anywhere, any time, for any reason, and no one should ever be able to stop it!

... then the left looks like a bunch of loons.

Still boggles my mind that people believe an employer shouldn't have the right to force employees to cease controversial conduct at work which angers their customer base.

Like, that's the most basic of basic concepts in the employer/employee relationship.

[Dan Druff]

This discussion is a less-serious version of the "freeway blocking protest" debate from a little while back.

Conservatives assert that protests blocking freeways are dangerous and highly disruptive to society, and are not covered under the Constitutional rights of peaceful assembly and free speech.

Liberals shout in response, "But Black Lives Matter!!!!!11 This is the only way to get attention to the serious issue of police brutality!!!"


I'm the opposite of an authoritarian, but you also need certain basic rules in place or society will plunge into chaos.

Freeways should not be allowed to be blocked just because some people think their cause is important.

Employees should not be allowed to politically protest at work if it harms their employer and they're asked to stop.

These are very simple concepts, and I find it sad that these are actually being debated, including by otherwise intelligent and reasonable people on the left.

[MrTickle]

Why does it matter how much they're paid?

[El Gallo]

This discussion is a less-serious version of the "freeway blocking protest" debate from a little while back.

Conservatives assert that protests blocking freeways are dangerous and highly disruptive to society, and are not covered under the Constitutional rights of peaceful assembly and free speech.

Liberals shout in response, "But Black Lives Matter!!!!!11 This is the only way to get attention to the serious issue of police brutality!!!"


I'm the opposite of an authoritarian, but you also need certain basic rules in place or society will plunge into chaos.

Freeways should not be allowed to be blocked just because some people think their cause is important.

Employees should not be allowed to politically protest at work if it harms their employer and they're asked to stop.

These are very simple concepts, and I find it sad that these are actually being debated, including by otherwise intelligent and reasonable people on the left.

For what it is worth I agree that the NFL has every right to tell them they can’t kneel. They own the platform and they don’t want players using their platform for civil rights activism. There is no argument there from me. If someone came into our office everyday and wore a “fuck this shit” t shirt I can tell them not to wear that while representing our company or they can leave. At the same time I can’t force them to stand up and pray with me, or pledge allegiance to the company every morning.

I agree that it is the NFL’s right to decide on whether they want to allow protests during their airtime, what I disagree with is all the extra bullshit you spew about patriotism and them saying fuck you to America.... it’s really easy for you to be ok with the way things are because you’re a middle aged white man. You haven’t had to deal with anywhere near what people of color and other minorities have had to deal with.

I don’t appreciate the “know your place n-words,” undertone that many supporters of the rule have. I also hate that many middle aged white man, as yourself, don’t appreciate what many blacks and Hispanics have had to deal with in this country. I agree with their right to protest, but I agree that if the owners decide it’s not ok, then that’s fine, they’re not entitled to anything from the people who pay their salaries.

With that said please cut the patriotic bullshit out. They are just as patriotic as people on the other side, they just wish things were different. Martin Luther King didn’t help create change by doing what old white men told him to do or simply agree when they told him to know his place

[Dan Druff]

This discussion is a less-serious version of the "freeway blocking protest" debate from a little while back.

Conservatives assert that protests blocking freeways are dangerous and highly disruptive to society, and are not covered under the Constitutional rights of peaceful assembly and free speech.

Liberals shout in response, "But Black Lives Matter!!!!!11 This is the only way to get attention to the serious issue of police brutality!!!"


I'm the opposite of an authoritarian, but you also need certain basic rules in place or society will plunge into chaos.

Freeways should not be allowed to be blocked just because some people think their cause is important.

Employees should not be allowed to politically protest at work if it harms their employer and they're asked to stop.

These are very simple concepts, and I find it sad that these are actually being debated, including by otherwise intelligent and reasonable people on the left.

For what it is worth I agree that the NFL has every right to tell them they can’t kneel. They own the platform and they don’t want players using their platform for civil rights activism. There is no argument there from me. If someone came into our office everyday and wore a “fuck this shit” t shirt I can tell them not to wear that while representing our company or they can leave. At the same time I can’t force them to stand up and pray with me, or pledge allegiance to the company every morning.

I agree that it is the NFL’s right to decide on whether they want to allow protests during their airtime, what I disagree with is all the extra bullshit you spew about patriotism and them saying fuck you to America.... it’s really easy for you to be ok with the way things are because you’re a middle aged white man. You haven’t had to deal with anywhere near what people of color and other minorities have had to deal with.

I don’t appreciate the “know your place n-word,” undertone that many supporters of the rule have. I also hate that many middle aged white man, as yourself, don’t appreciate what many blacks and Hispanics have had to deal with in this country. I agree with their right to protest, but I agree that if the owners decide it’s not ok, then that’s fine, they’re not entitled to anything from the people who pay their salaries.

With that said please cut the patriotic bullshit out. They are just as patriotic as people on the other side, they just wish things were different. Martin Luther King didn’t help create change by doing what old white men told him to do or simply agree when they told him to know his place

You are putting words in my mouth and then arguing with those words.

I don't understand it.

I'm not arguing this from the standpoint of patriotism.

My one statement about patriotism was that the form of protest was a fuck you to patriotic Americans (notice I said patriotic, not conservative). And it is.

Not because it's coming from the left, but because it's protesting the anthem of the country.

Protesting Trump isn't unpatriotic. Protesting a war isn't unpatriotic. Protesting a policy isn't unpatriotic.

Protesting the entire country itself -- which is what they're doing by kneeling during the anthem -- is indeed unpatriotic and a slap in the face to all NFL fans who love this country.


Anyway, even if you disagree with the above, that's just a side statement of mine. I don't like the message they're putting out -- basically "Fuck America".

My main point is that the NFL has a right to tell them to stop, and that it isn't a case of "forced patriotism" or suppression of the black protest when the NFL does this.

[MumblesBadly]

For what it is worth I agree that the NFL has every right to tell them they can’t kneel. They own the platform and they don’t want players using their platform for civil rights activism. There is no argument there from me. If someone came into our office everyday and wore a “fuck this shit” t shirt I can tell them not to wear that while representing our company or they can leave. At the same time I can’t force them to stand up and pray with me, or pledge allegiance to the company every morning.

I agree that it is the NFL’s right to decide on whether they want to allow protests during their airtime, what I disagree with is all the extra bullshit you spew about patriotism and them saying fuck you to America.... it’s really easy for you to be ok with the way things are because you’re a middle aged white man. You haven’t had to deal with anywhere near what people of color and other minorities have had to deal with.

I don’t appreciate the “know your place n-words,” undertone that many supporters of the rule have. I also hate that many middle aged white man, as yourself, don’t appreciate what many blacks and Hispanics have had to deal with in this country. I agree with their right to protest, but I agree that if the owners decide it’s not ok, then that’s fine, they’re not entitled to anything from the people who pay their salaries.

With that said please cut the patriotic bullshit out. They are just as patriotic as people on the other side, they just wish things were different. Martin Luther King didn’t help create change by doing what old white men told him to do or simply agree when they told him to know his place

You are putting words in my mouth and then arguing with those words.

I don't understand it.

I'm not arguing this from the standpoint of patriotism.

My one statement about patriotism was that the form of protest was a fuck you to patriotic Americans (notice I said patriotic, not conservative). And it is.

Not because it's coming from the left, but because it's protesting the anthem of the country.

Protesting Trump isn't unpatriotic. Protesting a war isn't unpatriotic. Protesting a policy isn't unpatriotic.

Protesting the entire country itself -- which is what they're doing by kneeling during the anthem -- is indeed unpatriotic and a slap in the face to all NFL fans who love this country.

Anyway, even if you disagree with the above, that's just a side statement of mine. I don't like the message they're putting out -- basically "Fuck America".

My main point is that the NFL has a right to tell them to stop, and that it isn't a case of "forced patriotism" or suppression of the black protest when the NFL does this.

This is the part of your argument that is 100% authoritarian bullshit. Because they aren’t protesting “the entire country”, only the unconstitutional abuse of power by LEOs and the people in authority who don’t hold them accountable for doing so.

[El Gallo]

For what it is worth I agree that the NFL has every right to tell them they can’t kneel. They own the platform and they don’t want players using their platform for civil rights activism. There is no argument there from me. If someone came into our office everyday and wore a “fuck this shit” t shirt I can tell them not to wear that while representing our company or they can leave. At the same time I can’t force them to stand up and pray with me, or pledge allegiance to the company every morning.

I agree that it is the NFL’s right to decide on whether they want to allow protests during their airtime, what I disagree with is all the extra bullshit you spew about patriotism and them saying fuck you to America.... it’s really easy for you to be ok with the way things are because you’re a middle aged white man. You haven’t had to deal with anywhere near what people of color and other minorities have had to deal with.

I don’t appreciate the “know your place n-words,” undertone that many supporters of the rule have. I also hate that many middle aged white man, as yourself, don’t appreciate what many blacks and Hispanics have had to deal with in this country. I agree with their right to protest, but I agree that if the owners decide it’s not ok, then that’s fine, they’re not entitled to anything from the people who pay their salaries.

With that said please cut the patriotic bullshit out. They are just as patriotic as people on the other side, they just wish things were different. Martin Luther King didn’t help create change by doing what old white men told him to do or simply agree when they told him to know his place

You are putting words in my mouth and then arguing with those words.

I don't understand it.

I'm not arguing this from the standpoint of patriotism.

My one statement about patriotism was that the form of protest was a fuck you to patriotic Americans (notice I said patriotic, not conservative). And it is.

Not because it's coming from the left, but because it's protesting the anthem of the country.

Protesting Trump isn't unpatriotic. Protesting a war isn't unpatriotic. Protesting a policy isn't unpatriotic.

Protesting the entire country itself -- which is what they're doing by kneeling during the anthem -- is indeed unpatriotic and a slap in the face to all NFL fans who love this country.


Anyway, even if you disagree with the above, that's just a side statement of mine. I don't like the message they're putting out -- basically "Fuck America".

My main point is that the NFL has a right to tell them to stop, and that it isn't a case of "forced patriotism" or suppression of the black protest when the NFL does this.

It’s not a fuck you to America or the entire country. It’s a slap to the face to the injustice that they as a people are suffering through. They are protesting for the numerous unarmed black men who are being shot by police and the unfair treatment of people of color in this judicial system. They love this country just as much as anyone else. If Jewish people were being treated unfairly or inproportinatly killed by police or given longer jail sentences, you’d want to protest also.

[jsearles22]

Why does it matter how much they're paid?

Maybe they are just resting during the song. Is sitting ok? Kneeling? Raising a fist while standing? Is that "protesting"?

What if on the back of NFL tickets it requires fans to stand or be ejected from the stadium? Is that cool now?


I know a guy who works in America for a German owned company. If they decided that each morning he must stand and salute the German flag while the German anthem plays, does everyone still think that's kosher? Or else he is fined $10,000. That's their right as an employer? GTFO

[gimmick]

My view on this is basically same as El Gallo's. It's also same as it was with the Damore/Google case.

Employers have certain rights for fairly pragmatic reasons and there's a time and a place for everything.

NFL have their shareholders, sponsors and customers to answer to first. And after that comes the players personal needs. Using the spotlight NFL and the team gives you for a personal protest that has nothing to do with the sport just isn't the place for it. Doesn't matter at all how valid that protest is.

[Zap_the_Fractions_Giraffe]

It’s not a fuck you to America or the entire country. It’s a slap to the face to the injustice that they as a people are suffering through. They are protesting for the numerous unarmed black men who are being shot by police and the unfair treatment of people of color in this judicial system. They love this country just as much as anyone else. If Jewish people were being treated unfairly or inproportinatly killed by police or given longer jail sentences, you’d want to protest also.

[Zap_the_Fractions_Giraffe]

el gallo: you do know that blacks commit a disproportionate amount of violent crimes in this country, right? the reason more black people end up on the wrong side of a gun is they are out there doing hoodrat shit. the most dangerous neighborhoods in this country are black neighborhoods. we all know this. nobody here wants to live in one. nobody here is going to walk through one at night. but these cops are tasked with trying to keep the poor people that do live in them safe, and it's a dangerous fucking job and I take their side over whichever gangbanger n-word they shot this week

[devidee]

In the ethno-state none of this will be an issue.

[duped_samaritan]

Druff is right on this one. We should be more like the well behaved athletes in this stadium, dipping our nation’s flag to the great leader of Germany. It would be “disrespectful” to do otherwise.

Btw, did you guys hear how Vegas Golden Knights CHANGED THE LYRICS to our sacred anthem? ( skip to 1:05 , no, wait, remove hat, stand and listen to whole thing : https://www.nhl.com/goldenknights/vi...380/c-59803703 )

[splitthis]

This shit will stop when white dudes with crowns on their heads stand in front of the kneeling fucks.