Two thumbs up! I got into it with Phil Hellmuth at the table today

[michael]

Are some of the details wrong in the OP or am i missing something?

As it reads now the blinds were 250-500. A player threw in a 1k chip without saying anything. How is it not a raise?

In fl at least, you throw one oversized chip in without saying anything, it's just a call.

[BlunderMaker]

One chip is always a call unless you declare it otherwise. The question is whether or not "thumbs up" is a valid raise declaration.

[michael]

One chip is always a call unless you declare it otherwise. The question is whether or not "thumbs up" is a valid raise declaration.

I would think not. When Umberto used to do it back in the day wouldn't he like cut out his chips after and physically put in the raised amount? Surely it wasn't a thumbsup and then an oversized chip?

I've seen the thumbs thing live before, but again, they usually put out more chips after the gesture

[LarryLaffer]

One chip is always a call unless you declare it otherwise. The question is whether or not "thumbs up" is a valid raise declaration.

according to the rules posted it was not.

[Dan Druff]

The WSOP has its own rules. Not sure if thumbs up is a raise by WSOP rules. The floorman said it wasn't a raise.

The TDA rules seem to clearly back my point, stating that "gestures" are ambiguous and do not count as a raise.

I am assuming that the rare mute poker player (scottyno?) would have to get permission from the floor beforehand to gesture for raises, much like Hal Lubarsky (who is blind) gets permission to have a guy sitting behind him, looking at his cards and whispering them to him.

[sonatine]

I am assuming that the rare mute poker player (scottyno?) would have to get permission from the floor beforehand to gesture for raises, much like Hal Lubarsky (who is blind) gets permission to have a guy sitting behind him, looking at his cards and whispering them to him.

coge. also up my reps limit because i should be repping you with coge, not commenting.

[starsstolemyroll]

Just curious, why Druff is still consumed with UB and AP scandals? I played on there, and lost a lot of money. But nearly 10 years later I am over it. Plus the statute of limitations is long gone. I agree Hellmuth was an unmitigated d-bag in this latest encounter. But to bring up things from the last decade, I dunno, it was a long time ago. Maybe Phil got away with one, but it was so long ago nobody really cares anymore. Just a long time to re-litigate something, especially since probably a couple players at the table were like 14 years old at the time.

nice try Russ.

[Shizzmoney]

One chip is always a call unless you declare it otherwise. The question is whether or not "thumbs up" is a valid raise declaration.

I would think not. When Umberto used to do it back in the day wouldn't he like cut out his chips after and physically put in the raised amount? Surely it wasn't a thumbsup and then an oversized chip?

I've seen the thumbs thing live before, but again, they usually put out more chips after the gesture

Here's an example of Humberto using the "thumbs up" gesture to raise during the 2006 ME (starting at 1:06).



He does eventually say a number after his "thumbs up" motion, which Norman Chad said is the "universal sign for a raise". He also puts in more than one oversized chip in this example.

Either way, Humberto has an exemption to do this probably because English is (barely) his second language. Phil Hellmuth's English is crass and callous, but at least he can speak it and shouldn't get such consideration unless a TD gave the OK otherwise for various reasons (i.e. he went to the dentist the night before or some other bullshit).

[Dan Druff]

I would think not. When Umberto used to do it back in the day wouldn't he like cut out his chips after and physically put in the raised amount? Surely it wasn't a thumbsup and then an oversized chip?

I've seen the thumbs thing live before, but again, they usually put out more chips after the gesture

Here's an example of Humberto using the "thumbs up" gesture to raise during the 2006 ME (starting at 1:06).



He does eventually say a number after his "thumbs up" motion, which Norman Chad said is the "universal sign for a raise". He also puts in more than one oversized chip in this example.

Either way, Humberto has an exemption to do this probably because English is (barely) his second language. Phil Hellmuth's English is crass and callous, but at least he can speak it and shouldn't get such consideration unless a TD gave the OK otherwise for various reasons (i.e. he went to the dentist the night before or some other bullshit).

It looks like Humberto just shoves the entire amount out at once, meaning that he doesn't need to say anything, and it's still a raise. So the thumbs up is meaningless. (Also, as you noted, he said the amount, as well.)

Also, in a Live at the Bike episode, Limon said "Send it up!" when attempting to raise with QQ. Some Asian chick in the hand called the floor and claimed that "Send it up" doesn't mean raise. The floor ruled in her favor.

[hutmaster]

[ErickAA]

The WSOP has its own rules. Not sure if thumbs up is a raise by WSOP rules. The floorman said it wasn't a raise.

The TDA rules seem to clearly back my point, stating that "gestures" are ambiguous and do not count as a raise.

I am assuming that the rare mute poker player (scottyno?) would have to get permission from the floor beforehand to gesture for raises, much like Hal Lubarsky (who is blind) gets permission to have a guy sitting behind him, looking at his cards and whispering them to him.

Well, at that point the issue wasn't whether he had made a legal raise or not. The issue is that the dealer announced raise and 6 people acted on this announcement, so no semi-competent floorman should ever change it to a call in this spot.

[Dan Druff]

The WSOP has its own rules. Not sure if thumbs up is a raise by WSOP rules. The floorman said it wasn't a raise.

The TDA rules seem to clearly back my point, stating that "gestures" are ambiguous and do not count as a raise.

I am assuming that the rare mute poker player (scottyno?) would have to get permission from the floor beforehand to gesture for raises, much like Hal Lubarsky (who is blind) gets permission to have a guy sitting behind him, looking at his cards and whispering them to him.

Well, at that point the issue wasn't whether he had made a legal raise or not. The issue is that the dealer announced raise and 6 people acted on this announcement, so no semi-competent floorman should ever change it to a call in this spot.

Question:

If he just threw in a 1k chip without ANY gesture, the dealer announced raise, and 6 people folded, would you say it should be ruled a raise?

I would think it could be argued that those 6 people screwed themselves by not knowing the rules.

I think the "there's already action, hand stands" precedent only deals with dealer error, such as if the button is incorrect, and it's only noticed after a raise and re-raise preflop. But this is different.

The WSOP has a "significant action" rule, meaning that the floor man can back out a hand if there aren't at least 2 players whom have voluntarily put chips in the pot.

I think the same might apply here. Phil's action followed by 6 folds pre-flop doesn't constitute significant action.

[jsearles22]

Well, at that point the issue wasn't whether he had made a legal raise or not. The issue is that the dealer announced raise and 6 people acted on this announcement, so no semi-competent floorman should ever change it to a call in this spot.

Question:

If he just threw in a 1k chip without ANY gesture, the dealer announced raise, and 6 people folded, would you say it should be ruled a raise?

I would think it could be argued that those 6 people screwed themselves by not knowing the rules.

I think the "there's already action, hand stands" precedent only deals with dealer error, such as if the button is incorrect, and it's only noticed after a raise and re-raise preflop. But this is different.

The WSOP has a "significant action" rule, meaning that the floor man can back out a hand if there aren't at least 2 players whom have voluntarily put chips in the pot.

I think the same might apply here. Phil's action followed by 6 folds pre-flop doesn't constitute significant action.

How would you have handled this if the dealer declared raise and 3 players flatted the raise before it got to you?

[ErickAA]

Well, at that point the issue wasn't whether he had made a legal raise or not. The issue is that the dealer announced raise and 6 people acted on this announcement, so no semi-competent floorman should ever change it to a call in this spot.

Question:

If he just threw in a 1k chip without ANY gesture, the dealer announced raise, and 6 people folded, would you say it should be ruled a raise?

I would think it could be argued that those 6 people screwed themselves by not knowing the rules.

I think the "there's already action, hand stands" precedent only deals with dealer error, such as if the button is incorrect, and it's only noticed after a raise and re-raise preflop. But this is different.

The WSOP has a "significant action" rule, meaning that the floor man can back out a hand if there aren't at least 2 players whom have voluntarily put chips in the pot.

I think the same might apply here. Phil's action followed by 6 folds pre-flop doesn't constitute significant action.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one I think. 6 players folding after an announced raise is significant IMO. But it isn't a big deal one way or another to me. I have no skin in the game. Just my opinion.

I don't even have any problem with you for calling Hellmuth out. People intentionally making an action in a strange way to be cute is one of my pet peeves when playing at the table. BEcause a) It isn't cute, and b) it just creates confusion from players not paying attention.

In limit holdem an obvious example of this you see all the time is when someone puts in a 3 bet, but they do it in 2 stacks, so if you aren't paying attention it looks like they are just calling, or when someone does what Hellmuth did (throws out a big chip and makes a raising motion with their hand where if you weren't paying attention to their hand motion you wouldn't know what they were even trying to do).

[Brittney Griner's Clit]

End of the day Phil is retard for not using his voice and he deserves whatever ruling comes his way. He's a pro and should act like one. But I'd still really really love to know if the entire hand was explained to the floor or if you asked the floor if thumbs up means raise as soon as he walked up and the floor just said no and walked away.

Also if you want to really overthink this Phil can fuck himself if he comes at you over ethics. One could actually make a point that Phil not going nuts at the floor until he got his ruling could be construed as him angling to for sure be able to play heads up with KK.

[Shizzmoney]

Also, in a Live at the Bike episode, Limon said "Send it up!" when attempting to raise with QQ. Some Asian chick in the hand called the floor and claimed that "Send it up" doesn't mean raise. The floor ruled in her favor.

That hand is here

[Dan Druff]

Question:

If he just threw in a 1k chip without ANY gesture, the dealer announced raise, and 6 people folded, would you say it should be ruled a raise?

I would think it could be argued that those 6 people screwed themselves by not knowing the rules.

I think the "there's already action, hand stands" precedent only deals with dealer error, such as if the button is incorrect, and it's only noticed after a raise and re-raise preflop. But this is different.

The WSOP has a "significant action" rule, meaning that the floor man can back out a hand if there aren't at least 2 players whom have voluntarily put chips in the pot.

I think the same might apply here. Phil's action followed by 6 folds pre-flop doesn't constitute significant action.

How would you have handled this if the dealer declared raise and 3 players flatted the raise before it got to you?

Then I would have accepted it as a raise. That's "significant action", and in that case would have been my fault for not speaking up before such action occurred.

I wasn't trying to angle the other players.

When it got to me, I thought about it, and said to myself, "Wait a minute, maybe that's not a raise!"

[jsearles22]

How would you have handled this if the dealer declared raise and 3 players flatted the raise before it got to you?

Then I would have accepted it as a raise. That's "significant action", and in that case would have been my fault for not speaking up before such action occurred.

I wasn't trying to angle the other players.

When it got to me, I thought about it, and said to myself, "Wait a minute, maybe that's not a raise!"

I'm with Verminard; agree to disagree. I don't see how 6 players folding to an ANNOUNCED raise is any less significant than if 3 players had called the exact same announced raise?

[Dan Druff]

Then I would have accepted it as a raise. That's "significant action", and in that case would have been my fault for not speaking up before such action occurred.

I wasn't trying to angle the other players.

When it got to me, I thought about it, and said to myself, "Wait a minute, maybe that's not a raise!"

I'm with Verminard; agree to disagree. I don't see how 6 players folding to an ANNOUNCED raise is any less significant than if 3 players had called the exact same announced raise?

If the floorman ruled against me, I wouldn't have argued.

However, in my experience, folds preflop are not considered significant action -- only money voluntarily put into the pot. This is because people cannot check pre-flop (aside from the BB), and more often than not will fold with no action in front of them.

For example, I have seen it where multiple folds occur and then it's pointed out that the button was wrong. The hand is almost always backed out at that point. The question the floorman always asks is, "What action was there?", and he's looking to hear whether or not there were two people who put money in the pot already.

[BeerAndPoker]

The question we need answered is if Druff is still buying the Hellmuth book for the UB chapter or did this wsop incident cause him to tighten up his jew wallet even more?