The God Delusion and Religion

[408Mike]

There will never be a way to determine if God is real or imagined. Those who "know" one way or the other have to step out in faith. There could be a Creator, or the universe could be completely accidental. Whatever you choose to believe is fine with me, and I'll never demand that you abandon your way of seeing things. But I will say this: the idea that there was a "first first" is both logical and plausible. Consider the extreme complexity of human reproduction... of the makeup of the even smallest parts of the human body. Study something like the brain or the human eye. Consider if you will the strategic balance of life, and each part that contributes to a given ecosystem. Every tiny detail is necessary for function - is it all by chance? If you were to throw together the building blocks for life into a box, I guarantee that you could shake it six million times and pour out its contents, and it would never have the perfect conglomeration needed to make it LIVE and WORK. This suggests some sort of intelligent design.

You complete me. It was actually near the end of my Physiology class that I really began to soul search and seek out God in earnest as I just could NOT believe the immense complexity that is the human body could just happen by chance. It is impossible, you could not calculate the improbability.

I also directly challenged my physiology teacher to explain how he could believe random events created us, body system by body system, and he quickly stumbled and said (after a couple weeks) "You know Michael, no one has ever asked me that before and to be honest, I don't know." Now keep in mind this is not direct proof of God's existence, but it certainly does prove that the complexity we see in nature is far too intricate and advanced to be easily explained away as just random luck and chance. Little evolution here and there, you get the idea.

[Bootsy Collins]

Sounds like now is the right time to start trolling the Mormons.

[Sloppy Joe]

There will never be a way to determine if God is real or imagined. Those who "know" one way or the other have to step out in faith. There could be a Creator, or the universe could be completely accidental. Whatever you choose to believe is fine with me, and I'll never demand that you abandon your way of seeing things. But I will say this: the idea that there was a "first first" is both logical and plausible. Consider the extreme complexity of human reproduction... of the makeup of the even smallest parts of the human body. Study something like the brain or the human eye. Consider if you will the strategic balance of life, and each part that contributes to a given ecosystem. Every tiny detail is necessary for function - is it all by chance? If you were to throw together the building blocks for life into a box, I guarantee that you could shake it six million times and pour out its contents, and it would never have the perfect conglomeration needed to make it LIVE and WORK. This suggests some sort of intelligent design.

Now you may be of the opinion that intelligent design existed, but is uninvolved at this juncture. That would certainly explain all the tragedy and happenstance of life today. I think this argument is more logically valid than one that denies any design or greater intention was involved. But it still can be argued that a greater entity exists, and no one can prove otherwise. Until such a time as it is proveable, I will continue to question and imagine. I'm fairly sure that is the beauty of the human mind. That we can question and rely on critical thinking.

Darwinism actually suggests otherwise, there is no 'chance' involved. It sounds like too simple of a response, but further educate yourself on the intricacies of the subject. The Moral Animal by Robert Wright does a great job elucidating how we have evolved physically and psychologically.

The world is beautiful, complex and full of wonder but it came to be that way due to natural selection over time.

[Suicide King]

There will never be a way to determine if God is real or imagined. Those who "know" one way or the other have to step out in faith. There could be a Creator, or the universe could be completely accidental. Whatever you choose to believe is fine with me, and I'll never demand that you abandon your way of seeing things. But I will say this: the idea that there was a "first first" is both logical and plausible. Consider the extreme complexity of human reproduction... of the makeup of the even smallest parts of the human body. Study something like the brain or the human eye. Consider if you will the strategic balance of life, and each part that contributes to a given ecosystem. Every tiny detail is necessary for function - is it all by chance? If you were to throw together the building blocks for life into a box, I guarantee that you could shake it six million times and pour out its contents, and it would never have the perfect conglomeration needed to make it LIVE and WORK. This suggests some sort of intelligent design.

You complete me. It was actually near the end of my Physiology class that I really began to soul search and seek out God in earnest as I just could NOT believe the immense complexity that is the human body could just happen by chance. It is impossible, you could not calculate the improbability.

I also directly challenged my physiology teacher to explain how he could believe random events created us, body system by body system, and he quickly stumbled and said (after a couple weeks) "You know Michael, no one has ever asked me that before and to be honest, I don't know." Now keep in mind this is not direct proof of God's existence, but it certainly does prove that the complexity we see in nature is far too intricate and advanced to be easily explained away as just random luck and chance. Little evolution here and there, you get the idea.

THis might help from one of the smartest people around

[lewfather]

God is not real, heaven nor hell. Man made rules with man made logics. Think GOVT before GOVT existed, you have religion. 10 commandments become 10 laws. People need to let go of it but they never will. For that I would predict we will eventually meet our demise. I see lots of fucks talking about going green to preserve this planet, I don't see anyone talking about going black on religious nuts though. Maybe someday this will change, until then we will forever be living in a day where you will be sent off to fight in the crusades which btw never ended, your children will follow these footsteps. Which are all in the name of god/gods that simpleton's thousands of years ago wrote about.

[408Mike]

There will never be a way to determine if God is real or imagined. Those who "know" one way or the other have to step out in faith. There could be a Creator, or the universe could be completely accidental. Whatever you choose to believe is fine with me, and I'll never demand that you abandon your way of seeing things. But I will say this: the idea that there was a "first first" is both logical and plausible. Consider the extreme complexity of human reproduction... of the makeup of the even smallest parts of the human body. Study something like the brain or the human eye. Consider if you will the strategic balance of life, and each part that contributes to a given ecosystem. Every tiny detail is necessary for function - is it all by chance? If you were to throw together the building blocks for life into a box, I guarantee that you could shake it six million times and pour out its contents, and it would never have the perfect conglomeration needed to make it LIVE and WORK. This suggests some sort of intelligent design.

Now you may be of the opinion that intelligent design existed, but is uninvolved at this juncture. That would certainly explain all the tragedy and happenstance of life today. I think this argument is more logically valid than one that denies any design or greater intention was involved. But it still can be argued that a greater entity exists, and no one can prove otherwise. Until such a time as it is proveable, I will continue to question and imagine. I'm fairly sure that is the beauty of the human mind. That we can question and rely on critical thinking.

Darwinism actually suggests otherwise, there is no 'chance' involved. It sounds like too simple of a response, but further educate yourself on the intricacies of the subject. The Moral Animal by Robert Wright does a great job elucidating how we have evolved physically and psychologically.

The world is beautiful, complex and full of wonder but it came to be that way due to natural selection over time.

Having studied human cell and organismal biology at great length I can assure you, natural selection does not explain everything you see in the world today. Granted, it does it explain a LOT, but then again, how do natural selection or evolution offer proof that God does not exist? Wouldn't a logical person conclude these are but the tools used by a higher power to create a viable ecosystem? Think about it.

[Sloppy Joe]

There will never be a way to determine if God is real or imagined. Those who "know" one way or the other have to step out in faith. There could be a Creator, or the universe could be completely accidental. Whatever you choose to believe is fine with me, and I'll never demand that you abandon your way of seeing things. But I will say this: the idea that there was a "first first" is both logical and plausible. Consider the extreme complexity of human reproduction... of the makeup of the even smallest parts of the human body. Study something like the brain or the human eye. Consider if you will the strategic balance of life, and each part that contributes to a given ecosystem. Every tiny detail is necessary for function - is it all by chance? If you were to throw together the building blocks for life into a box, I guarantee that you could shake it six million times and pour out its contents, and it would never have the perfect conglomeration needed to make it LIVE and WORK. This suggests some sort of intelligent design.

Now you may be of the opinion that intelligent design existed, but is uninvolved at this juncture. That would certainly explain all the tragedy and happenstance of life today. I think this argument is more logically valid than one that denies any design or greater intention was involved. But it still can be argued that a greater entity exists, and no one can prove otherwise. Until such a time as it is proveable, I will continue to question and imagine. I'm fairly sure that is the beauty of the human mind. That we can question and rely on critical thinking.

Darwinism actually suggests otherwise, there is no 'chance' involved. It sounds like too simple of a response, but further educate yourself on the intricacies of the subject. The Moral Animal by Robert Wright does a great job elucidating how we have evolved physically and psychologically.

The world is beautiful, complex and full of wonder but it came to be that way due to natural selection over time.

Having studied human cell and organismal biology at great length I can assure you, natural selection does not explain everything you see in the world today. Granted, it does it explain a LOT, but then again, how do natural selection or evolution offer proof that God does not exist? Wouldn't a logical person conclude these are but the tools used by a higher power to create a viable ecosystem? Think about it.

Natural selection and evolution are sufficient to explain everything about the world around us. A logical person would not conclude that they are the tools used by an inexplicable higher power to create a viable ecosystem; that would be illogical. Rather, it offers rational reasoning as to how ecosystems are sustainable and how some species prevailed over others. The hypothetical presence of a knob-twiddling deity is laughable when thrown in the face of natural selection. I concede that I find the anthropic principle unsatisfying in concern to the 'first first' thing or whatever, but I accept that science does not have an answer for everything. I hope someday it will.

[Cat Out Of The Bag]

Impoverished, highly-religious small towns in the US have extremely low crime rates.

Compare those crime rates to less religious towns with a similar income level (and also relatively remote, taking the big city factor out), and you'll find an amazing difference.

Religious people get a bad rap for being intolerant and simple-minded, but religion can also serve as a basis for ethics and charitable behavior.

Or it can serve as basis for gay bashing, or as vehicle for hate against people from different continents or cultures.

[hutmaster]

408 is a Jesus freak LOL!!!!!!!! Religion is for the weak! Hey I have a good idea, let's elect a bunch of Jesus freaks to hold national office and one even to be President and see how well they do fucking up the nation.......oh wait we already did that. Thanks GWB. To actually believe in organized religion takes an amazing amount of naivete. Yes Jonah really lived inside a whale and there was a talking snake in Eden......LOLZ Of all the organized religions at least Judaism makes logical sense for the most part. Judaism doesn't say you need to be a Jew to go to heaven just a good person. Christianity on the other hand says that Jesus (not God) has an ego so big that you must bend over and kiss his ass in order to get into heaven. If you were the Jewish Mother Theresa you are still going to hell according to the "born-agains." You could, however, be a serial rapist and tell Jesus you love him on your death bed and get to spend eternity in heaven. Judaism is not really concerned with the after life though. It teaches that the reason we should be good people is to create heaven on earth. Judaism also welcomes the moral atheist without trying to convert them, for one who leads a moral life honors God and deserves all of Gods rewards.

I was born and raised Jewish, but I don't practice it. I consider myself an agnostic. I suppose I really am an atheist but my view is whether or not God exists makes no difference. Live your life well and you will have few worries.....if God exists his ego is not so fragile that he requires you to pucker up and kiss his ass.

[Vwls]

There will never be a way to determine if God is real or imagined. Those who "know" one way or the other have to step out in faith. There could be a Creator, or the universe could be completely accidental. Whatever you choose to believe is fine with me, and I'll never demand that you abandon your way of seeing things. But I will say this: the idea that there was a "first first" is both logical and plausible. Consider the extreme complexity of human reproduction... of the makeup of the even smallest parts of the human body. Study something like the brain or the human eye. Consider if you will the strategic balance of life, and each part that contributes to a given ecosystem. Every tiny detail is necessary for function - is it all by chance? If you were to throw together the building blocks for life into a box, I guarantee that you could shake it six million times and pour out its contents, and it would never have the perfect conglomeration needed to make it LIVE and WORK. This suggests some sort of intelligent design.

Now you may be of the opinion that intelligent design existed, but is uninvolved at this juncture. That would certainly explain all the tragedy and happenstance of life today. I think this argument is more logically valid than one that denies any design or greater intention was involved. But it still can be argued that a greater entity exists, and no one can prove otherwise. Until such a time as it is proveable, I will continue to question and imagine. I'm fairly sure that is the beauty of the human mind. That we can question and rely on critical thinking.

Darwinism actually suggests otherwise, there is no 'chance' involved. It sounds like too simple of a response, but further educate yourself on the intricacies of the subject. The Moral Animal by Robert Wright does a great job elucidating how we have evolved physically and psychologically.

The world is beautiful, complex and full of wonder but it came to be that way due to natural selection over time.

Having studied human cell and organismal biology at great length I can assure you, natural selection does not explain everything you see in the world today. Granted, it does it explain a LOT, but then again, how do natural selection or evolution offer proof that God does not exist? Wouldn't a logical person conclude these are but the tools used by a higher power to create a viable ecosystem? Think about it.

Natural selection and evolution are sufficient to explain everything about the world around us. A logical person would not conclude that they are the tools used by an inexplicable higher power to create a viable ecosystem; that would be illogical. Rather, it offers rational reasoning as to how ecosystems are sustainable and how some species prevailed over others. The hypothetical presence of a knob-twiddling deity is laughable when thrown in the face of natural selection. I concede that I find the anthropic principle unsatisfying in concern to the 'first first' thing or whatever, but I accept that science does not have an answer for everything. I hope someday it will.

I was referring in my post to the origin of living things, not the manner in which evolution changes them. I'm on board with science and evolution and understand natural selection quite well; the fact that species evolve in no way negates the possibility of a first first, or even of an actively involved, sentient God. In fact, it is illogical that some Christians (and some atheists as well) consider belief in a Creator and science to be at odds. They can both be true.

[408Mike]

Darwinism actually suggests otherwise, there is no 'chance' involved. It sounds like too simple of a response, but further educate yourself on the intricacies of the subject. The Moral Animal by Robert Wright does a great job elucidating how we have evolved physically and psychologically.

The world is beautiful, complex and full of wonder but it came to be that way due to natural selection over time.

Having studied human cell and organismal biology at great length I can assure you, natural selection does not explain everything you see in the world today. Granted, it does it explain a LOT, but then again, how do natural selection or evolution offer proof that God does not exist? Wouldn't a logical person conclude these are but the tools used by a higher power to create a viable ecosystem? Think about it.

Natural selection and evolution are sufficient to explain everything about the world around us. A logical person would not conclude that they are the tools used by an inexplicable higher power to create a viable ecosystem; that would be illogical. Rather, it offers rational reasoning as to how ecosystems are sustainable and how some species prevailed over others. The hypothetical presence of a knob-twiddling deity is laughable when thrown in the face of natural selection. I concede that I find the anthropic principle unsatisfying in concern to the 'first first' thing or whatever, but I accept that science does not have an answer for everything. I hope someday it will.

I was referring in my post to the origin of living things, not the manner in which evolution changes them. I'm on board with science and evolution and understand natural selection quite well; the fact that species evolve in no way negates the possibility of a first first, or even of an actively involved, sentient God. In fact, it is illogical that some Christians (and some atheists as well) consider belief in a Creator and science to be at odds. They can both be true.

Why is it we both say the same message yet people understand you and not me? I need to brush up on my people skills...Anyway this is what I have been trying to say the whole time. Science and Faith are NOT mutually exclusive, one does not disprove the other. It is ignorant in my opinion to wholly discredit the other side of the argument particularly when discussing something as important and galvanizing as we are.

It is also not only ignorant but childish and disrespectful to incessantly lob snide remarks such "knob-twiddling deity" and as such this thread is dead to me. Not for one single post not ONE did op give me or my side an inch of respect. Your piss poor attitude is a very solid testament to what i see from atheistic liberals every single day. I love discourse as much as the next person and truth be told this thread is exactly what I hope NOT to see on this forum. The disrespect, ignorance and downright contempt op showed me is just appalling.

Shame on me for wasting my time trying to help you back on venom. What a complete waste of time and emotion.

[408Mike]

408 is a Jesus freak LOL!!!!!!!! Religion is for the weak! Hey I have a good idea, let's elect a bunch of Jesus freaks to hold national office and one even to be President and see how well they do fucking up the nation.......oh wait we already did that. Thanks GWB. To actually believe in organized religion takes an amazing amount of naivete. Yes Jonah really lived inside a whale and there was a talking snake in Eden......LOLZ Of all the organized religions at least Judaism makes logical sense for the most part. Judaism doesn't say you need to be a Jew to go to heaven just a good person. Christianity on the other hand says that Jesus (not God) has an ego so big that you must bend over and kiss his ass in order to get into heaven. If you were the Jewish Mother Theresa you are still going to hell according to the "born-agains." You could, however, be a serial rapist and tell Jesus you love him on your death bed and get to spend eternity in heaven. Judaism is not really concerned with the after life though. It teaches that the reason we should be good people is to create heaven on earth. Judaism also welcomes the moral atheist without trying to convert them, for one who leads a moral life honors God and deserves all of Gods rewards.

I was born and raised Jewish, but I don't practice it. I consider myself an agnostic. I suppose I really am an atheist but my view is whether or not God exists makes no difference. Live your life well and you will have few worries.....if God exists his ego is not so fragile that he requires you to pucker up and kiss his ass.

Of all the forum members here, I expected you to try and take out my knees the least. But then again, I do know who is mad at me...

"You could, however, be a serial rapist and tell Jesus you love him on your death bed and get to spend eternity in heaven."
God is a good judge, not a bad one. Don't bother assuming you know what I mean, look it up.

"Christianity on the other hand says that Jesus (not God) has an ego so big that you must bend over and kiss his ass in order to get into heaven."
I honestly cannot even engage this kind of slanderous disrespectful rubbish. Is this the best you liberals can come up with?

Hut, just for the sake that we go way back and you always treated me very good I won't get carried away. You are a good guy, a bit mislead but hey that's life. Jesus is the way to Heaven- the ONLY way- and it is up to you to either take some initiative and learn the truth yourself or keep living in the dark, waiting to die.

Leave you with this.

Isaiah 64:6a

"All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags."

[Corrigan]

4-0-Great never disappoints.

[Rollo Tomasi]

http://times247.com/articles/dems-us...n-moral-ground

[hutmaster]

408 is a Jesus freak LOL!!!!!!!! Religion is for the weak! Hey I have a good idea, let's elect a bunch of Jesus freaks to hold national office and one even to be President and see how well they do fucking up the nation.......oh wait we already did that. Thanks GWB. To actually believe in organized religion takes an amazing amount of naivete. Yes Jonah really lived inside a whale and there was a talking snake in Eden......LOLZ Of all the organized religions at least Judaism makes logical sense for the most part. Judaism doesn't say you need to be a Jew to go to heaven just a good person. Christianity on the other hand says that Jesus (not God) has an ego so big that you must bend over and kiss his ass in order to get into heaven. If you were the Jewish Mother Theresa you are still going to hell according to the "born-agains." You could, however, be a serial rapist and tell Jesus you love him on your death bed and get to spend eternity in heaven. Judaism is not really concerned with the after life though. It teaches that the reason we should be good people is to create heaven on earth. Judaism also welcomes the moral atheist without trying to convert them, for one who leads a moral life honors God and deserves all of Gods rewards.

I was born and raised Jewish, but I don't practice it. I consider myself an agnostic. I suppose I really am an atheist but my view is whether or not God exists makes no difference. Live your life well and you will have few worries.....if God exists his ego is not so fragile that he requires you to pucker up and kiss his ass.

Of all the forum members here, I expected you to try and take out my knees the least. But then again, I do know who is mad at me...

"You could, however, be a serial rapist and tell Jesus you love him on your death bed and get to spend eternity in heaven."
God is a good judge, not a bad one. Don't bother assuming you know what I mean, look it up.

"Christianity on the other hand says that Jesus (not God) has an ego so big that you must bend over and kiss his ass in order to get into heaven."
I honestly cannot even engage this kind of slanderous disrespectful rubbish. Is this the best you liberals can come up with?

Hut, just for the sake that we go way back and you always treated me very good I won't get carried away. You are a good guy, a bit mislead but hey that's life. Jesus is the way to Heaven- the ONLY way- and it is up to you to either take some initiative and learn the truth yourself or keep living in the dark, waiting to die.

Leave you with this.

Isaiah 64:6a

"All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags."

Mike,

Don't get so offended. My comments weren't meant to be a personal attack, they apply equally to all Jesus freaks. You say my comments are slanderous but then you go and repeat the same illogical bullshit about Jesus being the only way and damned be the Jew or the moral Atheist. Let's also make something very clear, Jews and Atheists spend their time celebrating life.....it is Christianity that sits around waiting to die in the hope of an afterlife. The moral atheist does right because it is simply the correct thing to do, the Jesus freak does it because of fear or hope for some reward upon death.....two very different concepts.

[hutmaster]

http://times247.com/articles/dems-us...n-moral-ground

LOL, a reprint of an article originally published by FOX News. In any case, let's recall the words of the Godfather of Conservatism, Barry Goldwater.

"I don't have any respect for the Religious Right. There is no place in this country for practicing religion in politics. That goes for Falwell, Robertson and all the rest of these political preachers. They are a detriment to the country."

[FPS_Russia]

http://www.tmz.com/2012/03/18/jason-...omments-anchor
Newest video were you can actually hear the Kony guy's words. I had no idea he's 100% in the closet gay with his head filled with religious bullshit. If you doubt he's gay watch the vid, lol. I actually think there's a chance this guy will give Kony more power and influence, interesting comment from TMZ comments section.

Quote"JB: about an hour ago
One mystery Americans or white people do not understand about Africa, is the power of the occult and voodoo. When I look at this video, I see nothing more than a man who has been thrown a curse by Kony and his supporters so that he can turn into a crazy person. This happens everyday in Africa; people throwing curse on their enemies through voodoo and other matters. You go to Africa, there are crazy people walking the street and doing the exact same thing this man is doing - and most of them are not because they are mentally unstable but because a voodoo curse has been thrown on them by someone who hates them or is jealous of their success. The motive for any of the Kony folks to do this to him is apparent to all: for exposing Kony to the world and the only way they can make him pay for what he did is to shame him. I feel bad for the guy. His organization has nothing intelligent to say about his behavior because it's incomprehensible and unexplainable to them - Maybe he will expose next one of the ills of Africa. Voodoo curse and voodoo killings kill more people in Africa than diseases. I will pray that this man regains his sanity" Quote

There's more than a god delusion. If Kony plays his cards right he can increase his power and influence. What a epic nightmare for Mr. Russel.

[408Mike]

Of all the forum members here, I expected you to try and take out my knees the least. But then again, I do know who is mad at me...

"You could, however, be a serial rapist and tell Jesus you love him on your death bed and get to spend eternity in heaven."
God is a good judge, not a bad one. Don't bother assuming you know what I mean, look it up.

"Christianity on the other hand says that Jesus (not God) has an ego so big that you must bend over and kiss his ass in order to get into heaven."
I honestly cannot even engage this kind of slanderous disrespectful rubbish. Is this the best you liberals can come up with?

Hut, just for the sake that we go way back and you always treated me very good I won't get carried away. You are a good guy, a bit mislead but hey that's life. Jesus is the way to Heaven- the ONLY way- and it is up to you to either take some initiative and learn the truth yourself or keep living in the dark, waiting to die.

Leave you with this.

Isaiah 64:6a

"All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags."

Mike,

Don't get so offended. My comments weren't meant to be a personal attack, they apply equally to all Jesus freaks. You say my comments are slanderous but then you go and repeat the same illogical bullshit about Jesus being the only way and damned be the Jew or the moral Atheist. Let's also make something very clear, Jews and Atheists spend their time celebrating life.....it is Christianity that sits around waiting to die in the hope of an afterlife. The moral atheist does right because it is simply the correct thing to do, the Jesus freak does it because of fear or hope for some reward upon death.....two very different concepts.

Hut, if I didnt take things so personal I could never write with the passion and intensity that i do. It cannot be faked, as many have tried and failed. Consider my sensitivity and my openness to share emotions as my gift to these forums for the sake of your entertainment.

It pains me to read what you just said, much more than you know. I know you are an honest and moral man, you wouldn't say how you feel if you did not have a legit reason to do so. To hear you say, in short, that atheists and Jews love life while Christians look forward to death- who was it that was such a piss poor example for you that you would believe such rubbish??? That is what it is, rubbish.

Christianity is centered around a couple key fundamentals- Our primary calling is getting to know God, plain and simple. He wants us to seek Him out and develop a close personal relationship with Him. The second is to love thy neighbor as one loveth thyself.

Matthew 22:37-40, "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

it's not vey complicated and it's very sad to me when I meet or talk to people with such an inaccurate and convoluted view of what being a Christian means. I don't think about death because in Him I find eternal life.

As Jesus said in John 17:3,

"And this is eternal life that they may know you, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

Is being a good person enough to get you into heaven?

The Apostle Paul wrote in Romans 10:9-10,

"That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

So no, we Christians do not look forward to death for in Christ we look forward to life eternal. I never said damned be the Jew or the good atheist, ultimately I am no one's judge. I have the Bible and Scripture to go off of but I am not God and not for one second would I ever think I speak for HIm and know what His judgement will be for any person. That would be ludicrous. On top of that I would never damn anyone or say something so spiteful and negative. If you do not exercise your God given FREE WILL in this life then you might as well be a programmed robot. God gave us free will to see what we will do with it and if you choose to come to him willingly, it pleases Him. Don't you want to make the being that created you happy?

I am truly sorry religion has let you down and led you astray. If you can find it in your heart to move past whatever has been holding you back, know that He is waiting to hear from you.

Deuteronomy 7:9
"Know therefore that the LORD your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commands."

[FPS_Russia]

Mike is fit as a fiddle, right wing, very religious and totally in the closet. Go hang with the Kony creator, you guys can cornhole the shit out of each other and then have a bible study then we won't have to hear you begging other members to ANALyze your workout routine and how you're Mr, Fitness.

[Sloppy Joe]

Having studied human cell and organismal biology at great length I can assure you, natural selection does not explain everything you see in the world today. Granted, it does it explain a LOT, but then again, how do natural selection or evolution offer proof that God does not exist? Wouldn't a logical person conclude these are but the tools used by a higher power to create a viable ecosystem? Think about it.

Natural selection and evolution are sufficient to explain everything about the world around us. A logical person would not conclude that they are the tools used by an inexplicable higher power to create a viable ecosystem; that would be illogical. Rather, it offers rational reasoning as to how ecosystems are sustainable and how some species prevailed over others. The hypothetical presence of a knob-twiddling deity is laughable when thrown in the face of natural selection. I concede that I find the anthropic principle unsatisfying in concern to the 'first first' thing or whatever, but I accept that science does not have an answer for everything. I hope someday it will.

I was referring in my post to the origin of living things, not the manner in which evolution changes them. I'm on board with science and evolution and understand natural selection quite well; the fact that species evolve in no way negates the possibility of a first first, or even of an actively involved, sentient God. In fact, it is illogical that some Christians (and some atheists as well) consider belief in a Creator and science to be at odds. They can both be true.

Why is it we both say the same message yet people understand you and not me? I need to brush up on my people skills...Anyway this is what I have been trying to say the whole time. Science and Faith are NOT mutually exclusive, one does not disprove the other. It is ignorant in my opinion to wholly discredit the other side of the argument particularly when discussing something as important and galvanizing as we are.

It is also not only ignorant but childish and disrespectful to incessantly lob snide remarks such "knob-twiddling deity" and as such this thread is dead to me. Not for one single post not ONE did op give me or my side an inch of respect. Your piss poor attitude is a very solid testament to what i see from atheistic liberals every single day. I love discourse as much as the next person and truth be told this thread is exactly what I hope NOT to see on this forum. The disrespect, ignorance and downright contempt op showed me is just appalling.

Shame on me for wasting my time trying to help you back on venom. What a complete waste of time and emotion.

Science and faith are mutually exclusive by definition, no? Science is based on empirical data, faith by definition is belief that is not based on proof. I don't really see any grey area between the two or how religious people can attempt to find some middle ground. If you believe, fine. But trying to rationalize it through a scientific paradigm is a cop out.

I'm sorry that I've offended you 408, I just think your beliefs are baseless. This thread has led to some interesting discourse and the only trolling I recall was you calling me an arrogant prick. I showed as much respect as possible as you make claims with your bible quotes and defend everything with YOU BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART, YOUR HEART TELLS YOU THE TRUTH. It seems like a common move for people with faith to demonize atheists when they feel threatened. Ad hominem attacks instantly discredit anything.

Also, LOL at lumping together all atheists as liberals. I would hope for the sake of competitive balance that not all conservatives are believers.