Quote Originally Posted by Kalam View Post
Quote Originally Posted by Sanlmar View Post

Egyptians, Mossad, etc etc. wasn’t complete surprise but lets make this work for us, shall we?

Hamas was an excuse to cancel any further two state discussion.

Sacrifice bishop.
San, I really respect your insights and ability to think clearly on these types of topics, but I think this type of thinking is a real mistake. Pulling back and going the isolationist route would be a very large mistake right now IMO. I admit I dont see the path forward clearly, but if we pulled out and "left Israel on their own" it would create a huge power vacuum in the ME for Iran/China/Russia to exploit, and the chance of things escalating into something much more serious, that would draw us back in anyways, would increase dramatically.

At the end of the day, our relationship with Saudi and the petro dollar is the primary driver of our economic empire, and our support for Israel is tied into this, and it would be tremendously bad for us as a country, and for the stability of the whole world, to pull out now.

I think it would be a mistake to think there was some intricate plan on Israel's part here, when incompetence is a much more likely explanation. The Netanyahu administration was incompetent, was distracted with setters in the West Bank, and Hamas caught them unawares. And once 10/7 happened, I am not sure Israel really had another path. Anything less would make them appear too weak, and would enable Iran and its proxies too much. For good or bad, Israel showing that it is willing to go scorched Earth, and us moving the military hardware we have into the region, I think has really caused Iran/Hezbollah to think twice about joining the fray, and limited how bad this could escalate.

And any 1 or 2 state solution has always been a complete non starter to the point there was never any reason to sabotage it. At no point in recent history have the Palestinians shown any interest. Their position has always been they want all the land back and aren't going to compromise for anything less. This is the reality completely independent of what party is running Israel or what concessions/aggressions they are making.

Maybe there was some point in the past when the Palestinians really would have agreed to a peace, but I doubt it. But it certainly has been a complete non starter the last 20 years since Hamas gained formal power.
I don’t have the energy to review the history of our involvement the Middle East.

Thinking we have the ability to manage that part of the world has been proven to be folly. When will you learn?

Suffice it to say that present day Iran is our creation. Regime change and all that gone wrong. Iran is very wary of the US and our potential for shenanigans within their borders. US interference in their government is all they know

Our involvement always ends badly and does little more than make matters worse.

The death of the petrodollar is inescapable regardless of Israel. I’m more interested in that topic tbh.

Not one damn nickel. We don’t have it to give. Handing out fewer bullets will tend to reduce the inclination to fight. See Ukraine