Bitcoin poker Seals with clubs

[hongkonger]

It would be nice to see some hard examples on how Micon can possibly even be considered to be charged .
He is running a site that offers poker play via bitcoin deposit no bank account or credit card accepted or required or linked to a seals account in any way.
If he ran a home game and everyone bought in with bread and he rakes pieces of bread from the pot how is that any different?

Personally I don't care because what micon does or what happens in his life effects me 0% but I am sincerely curious because i see it said over and over that he may possibly get screwed but its hard to tell the haters from reality . So seeing legitimate points and not speculation would be interesting .

1. The Wire Act makes it a federal offense to place or accept a wager over the telephone lines (including the internet) if the type of wager made is illegal in either the bettor's or the house's jurisdiction. There was a famous case where an American moved to some Caribbean island to set up an online book that took wagers from Americans. He returned to the US and got nabbed and spent a couple of years in the joint. All his activities were based outside the US and he even lived outside the US while running the book, but taking bets from Americans is enough. Actually, technically, taking bets from any person in any place where online gambling is illegal would have been enough. If he had taken bets from a North Korean (assuming online gambling is illegal there), he could have been prosecuted in the US just for that.

2. Any person who who is an owner or employee or knowingly provides material assistance, including advertising, software, hosting, recruiting customers, etc. for a gambling operation that violates the Wire Act is a conspirator and can be prosecuted under the Wire Act.

3. The UIGEA makes it illegal for any person in the US or any person acting on behalf of Americans to perform financial transaction services on behalf of anyone engaged in online gambling.

4. As with the Wire Act, any person who recruits another person or company to provide financial transaction services on behalf of an online gambling operation is a conspirator and can be prosecuted as such. It doesn't matter if the people ultimately providing the services (in this case, SWC and the bitcoin exchanges) are located in the US or not.

[bottomset_69]

It would be nice to see some hard examples on how Micon can possibly even be considered to be charged .
He is running a site that offers poker play via bitcoin deposit no bank account or credit card accepted or required or linked to a seals account in any way.
If he ran a home game and everyone bought in with bread and he rakes pieces of bread from the pot how is that any different?

Personally I don't care because what micon does or what happens in his life effects me 0% but I am sincerely curious because i see it said over and over that he may possibly get screwed but its hard to tell the haters from reality . So seeing legitimate points and not speculation would be interesting .

Are you serious? Gambling with Bitcoins is even more egregious for the government than Neteller, given their anonymity. It's a money launderers paradise.

Are you suggesting a crime syndicate can now offer bitcoin gambling on sports-betting online and use your analogy justify it like 'pieces of bread'? You think the Feds are going to say, "yeah, that is a good point?" LOL

If you offer gambling vehicles online, and you profit of it, you have tremendous exposure.

And to use your example, yes, if you exchange the pieces of bread at the end of the night for real cash at your home game, yes it's illegal. Chances are nobody is going to fuck with your home game unless your neighbors start bitching due to traffic and noise.

The issue with SWC, is the Feds said time and again, don't do shit like this, the examples are plentiful. So to blatantly fuck with them and flaunt it, is going get you squarely on the radar. And to advertise yourself as the largest bitcoin poker site in the world is even worse.

[abrown83]

It would be nice to see some hard examples on how Micon can possibly even be considered to be charged .
He is running a site that offers poker play via bitcoin deposit no bank account or credit card accepted or required or linked to a seals account in any way.
If he ran a home game and everyone bought in with bread and he rakes pieces of bread from the pot how is that any different?

Personally I don't care because what micon does or what happens in his life effects me 0% but I am sincerely curious because i see it said over and over that he may possibly get screwed but its hard to tell the haters from reality . So seeing legitimate points and not speculation would be interesting .

1. The Wire Act makes it a federal offense to place or accept a wager over the telephone lines (including the internet) if the type of wager made is illegal in either the bettor's or the house's jurisdiction. There was a famous case where an American moved to some Caribbean island to set up an online book that took wagers from Americans. He returned to the US and got nabbed and spent a couple of years in the joint. All his activities were based outside the US and he even lived outside the US while running the book, but taking bets from Americans is enough. Actually, technically, taking bets from any person in any place where online gambling is illegal would have been enough. If he had taken bets from a North Korean (assuming online gambling is illegal there), he could have been prosecuted in the US just for that.

2. Any person who who is an owner or employee or knowingly provides material assistance, including advertising, software, hosting, recruiting customers, etc. for a gambling operation that violates the Wire Act is a conspirator and can be prosecuted under the Wire Act.

3. The UIGEA makes it illegal for any person in the US or any person acting on behalf of Americans to perform financial transaction services on behalf of anyone engaged in online gambling.

4. As with the Wire Act, any person who recruits another person or company to provide financial transaction services on behalf of an online gambling operation is a conspirator and can be prosecuted as such. It doesn't matter if the people ultimately providing the services (in this case, SWC and the bitcoin exchanges) are located in the US or not.

The Wire Act doesn't pertain to Poker. That was ruled on in Dec 2011 by the Department of Justice.

[hongkonger]

1. The Wire Act makes it a federal offense to place or accept a wager over the telephone lines (including the internet) if the type of wager made is illegal in either the bettor's or the house's jurisdiction. There was a famous case where an American moved to some Caribbean island to set up an online book that took wagers from Americans. He returned to the US and got nabbed and spent a couple of years in the joint. All his activities were based outside the US and he even lived outside the US while running the book, but taking bets from Americans is enough. Actually, technically, taking bets from any person in any place where online gambling is illegal would have been enough. If he had taken bets from a North Korean (assuming online gambling is illegal there), he could have been prosecuted in the US just for that.

2. Any person who who is an owner or employee or knowingly provides material assistance, including advertising, software, hosting, recruiting customers, etc. for a gambling operation that violates the Wire Act is a conspirator and can be prosecuted under the Wire Act.

3. The UIGEA makes it illegal for any person in the US or any person acting on behalf of Americans to perform financial transaction services on behalf of anyone engaged in online gambling.

4. As with the Wire Act, any person who recruits another person or company to provide financial transaction services on behalf of an online gambling operation is a conspirator and can be prosecuted as such. It doesn't matter if the people ultimately providing the services (in this case, SWC and the bitcoin exchanges) are located in the US or not.

The Wire Act doesn't pertain to Poker. That was ruled on in Dec 2011 by the Department of Justice.

It has never been "ruled" on. An opinion was issued by the DOJ. When there's a new administration, the DOJ's opinion may change, as it commonly does. It has never been tested in court.

[BHS]

I don't understand why it's so difficult for anyone on PFA to give Micon some credit.

Black Friday was never about "playing online" poker, it was a thinly veiled money grab and ultra conservative serving political maneuver by some massive faggots with their own bullshit agenda.

You guys really think anyone at the Fed gives a shit about SWC or "the chairman" and the ~ 400 people that play (mostly LOW stakes) for bitcoins on it??? Ummm, noooo.. they don't.

In addition to what Abrown said about the wire act.. there is a 0.0 chance that anything happens to Micon here (even with current legislation), nor should it.

SWC is about as far from a "money laundering haven" as Druff is chugging sodas, not exercising and declaring himself "healthy"..

[Dan Druff]

The feds can easily come down on bitcoin gambling sites if they want, especially if these sites make it clear that they are intended to be a replacement for real-money gambling, and not just people gambling meaningless internet coins.

Headshot is correct that a small operation is much less likely to see prosecution than a large operation (same reason Merge hasn't been busted yet, while Pokerstars was), but he is incorrect to say that there's a "0.0 chance" a small operation will get busted.

If you disagree with this and think bitcoin gambling is 100% legal according to US law, then you would be a fool not to set up your own bitcoin casino/poker room. Software can be had for as little as $100 (seriously). If this were legal, I would be the first one setting something up like this myself.

You do have less to lose if you are already broke and can't be smacked with big fines if caught (well, you can get fined, but the government can't collect nonexistent money). I have too many assets to be taking a risk with something like this, but honestly I still wouldn't be risking it even if I were broke.

[BCR]

I don't understand why it's so difficult for anyone on PFA to give Micon some credit.

Black Friday was never about "playing online" poker, it was a thinly veiled money grab and ultra conservative serving political maneuver by some massive faggots with their own bullshit agenda.

You guys really think anyone at the Fed gives a shit about SWC or "the chairman" and the ~ 400 people that play (mostly LOW stakes) for bitcoins on it??? Ummm, noooo.. they don't.

In addition to what Abrown said about the wire act.. there is a 0.0 chance that anything happens to Micon here (even with current legislation), nor should it.

SWC is about as far from a "money laundering haven" as Druff is chugging sodas, not exercising and declaring himself "healthy"..

I give Micon credit for being in on the ground floor of two booms. Being in BTC when he originally got in was an incredible windfall. As far as being the face of SWC, I'd have to know how profitable it was for him personally to judge how smart/stupid it was. If he's made a million dollars or more from it, which wouldn't be unthinkable given when he came in, it's probably smart. It's pure risk/reward.

I think it unlikely he goes to jail, but he's the type they love to make an example of. Openly defiant, engaged heavily in the community, easily found, etc. Arresting him would make a splash in that world, and they don't have to convict to eat up every cent he's made. Simply making him defend himself for a good stretch against the feds would bankrupt him even if it results in nothing.

Given it appeared he was really struggling financially before he got involved, it's probably been a worthwhile risk, but I think there is a small risk. It just all depends how many coins he hung onto from the beginning when they were playing for full coins, and he was tossing out 5 and 10btc like candy. If he hung onto a few thousand coins then, hell yeah, it's been a great risk.

The one thing is, he seems to be excited at further expansion of btc, and loves seeing it spread into the legit world because he's a true believer. That would be the last thing I'd want in his spot. I'd prefer to stay under the radar and pile it up. Running a home game with 15 players is incredibly profitable. That room, even small, is printing money. If it goes mainstream, it would be good for his holdings, but bad if he doesn't step down from SWC.


Knowing what we know now, I would have rolled the dice in his spot. But I'm currently single, have no kids, and I'm much better equipped for doing a few in federal prison.

[Charham]

The feds can easily come down on bitcoin gambling sites if they want, especially if these sites make it clear that they are intended to be a replacement for real-money gambling, and not just people gambling meaningless internet coins.

Headshot is correct that a small operation is much less likely to see prosecution than a large operation (same reason Merge hasn't been busted yet, while Pokerstars was), but he is incorrect to say that there's a "0.0 chance" a small operation will get busted.

If you disagree with this and think bitcoin gambling is 100% legal according to US law, then you would be a fool not to set up your own bitcoin casino/poker room. Software can be had for as little as $100 (seriously). If this were legal, I would be the first one setting something up like this myself.

You do have less to lose if you are already broke and can't be smacked with big fines if caught (well, you can get fined, but the government can't collect nonexistent money). I have too many assets to be taking a risk with something like this, but honestly I still wouldn't be risking it even if I were broke.

this ^^^^, and I would add that if you are a US citizen you would probably have to move offshore forever to have any chance of "getting away" with it.

[Walter Sobchak]

I don't understand why it's so difficult for anyone on PFA to give Micon some credit.

Black Friday was never about "playing online" poker, it was a thinly veiled money grab and ultra conservative serving political maneuver by some massive faggots with their own bullshit agenda.

You guys really think anyone at the Fed gives a shit about SWC or "the chairman" and the ~ 400 people that play (mostly LOW stakes) for bitcoins on it??? Ummm, noooo.. they don't.

In addition to what Abrown said about the wire act.. there is a 0.0 chance that anything happens to Micon here (even with current legislation), nor should it.

SWC is about as far from a "money laundering haven" as Druff is chugging sodas, not exercising and declaring himself "healthy"..

I give Micon credit for being in on the ground floor of two booms. Being in BTC when he originally got in was an incredible windfall. As far as being the face of SWC, I'd have to know how profitable it was for him personally to judge how smart/stupid it was. If he's made a million dollars or more from it, which wouldn't be unthinkable given when he came in, it's probably smart. It's pure risk/reward.

I think it unlikely he goes to jail, but he's the type they love to make an example of. Openly defiant, engaged heavily in the community, easily found, etc. Arresting him would make a splash in that world, and they don't have to convict to eat up every cent he's made. Simply making him defend himself for a good stretch against the feds would bankrupt him even if it results in nothing.

Given it appeared he was really struggling financially before he got involved, it's probably been a worthwhile risk, but I think there is a small risk. It just all depends how many coins he hung onto from the beginning when they were playing for full coins, and he was tossing out 5 and 10btc like candy. If he hung onto a few thousand coins then, hell yeah, it's been a great risk.

The one thing is, he seems to be excited at further expansion of btc, and loves seeing it spread into the legit world because he's a true believer. That would be the last thing I'd want in his spot. I'd prefer to stay under the radar and pile it up. Running a home game with 15 players is incredibly profitable. That room, even small, is printing money. If it goes mainstream, it would be good for his holdings, but bad if he doesn't step down from SWC.


Knowing what we know now, I would have rolled the dice in his spot. But I'm currently single, have no kids, and I'm much better equipped for doing a few in federal prison.

Why are you better equipped to do a few years in federal prison? You have a very flexible sphincter? Already HIV+? Member of a skinhead gang that will protect you?

[Walter Sobchak]

The feds can easily come down on bitcoin gambling sites if they want, especially if these sites make it clear that they are intended to be a replacement for real-money gambling, and not just people gambling meaningless internet coins.

Headshot is correct that a small operation is much less likely to see prosecution than a large operation (same reason Merge hasn't been busted yet, while Pokerstars was), but he is incorrect to say that there's a "0.0 chance" a small operation will get busted.

If you disagree with this and think bitcoin gambling is 100% legal according to US law, then you would be a fool not to set up your own bitcoin casino/poker room. Software can be had for as little as $100 (seriously). If this were legal, I would be the first one setting something up like this myself.

You do have less to lose if you are already broke and can't be smacked with big fines if caught (well, you can get fined, but the government can't collect nonexistent money). I have too many assets to be taking a risk with something like this, but honestly I still wouldn't be risking it even if I were broke.

This. Just seems dumb

[sonatine]

Knowing what we know now, I would have rolled the dice in his spot.

I was given the opportunity to roll these dice. I didnt because I knew what it would take to do it right, and I also knew that there was a chance that even if I did it right, Id still be blued screwed and tattooed.

The minimum commitment necessary to engage in that gambit is to renounce American citizenship and relocate to someplace that turns a blind eye to online gambling. GG family, GG friends, hello Costa Rica. And if Costa Rica caves and changes its mind about being a haven for online gambling bullshit?

Fucked.

For.

Life.


Im sorry but I just dont see the equity in being a D- level poker celebrity for a site that's offsetting its online poker risk by embracing a currency whose principle market participants are drug dealers, spammers, and identity thieves, unless of course you're totally unqualified to hold down legit employme-..... ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

[simpdog]

I could have easily started a bitcoin poker site. I bought the software for $100 and had money set aside for marketing.

But I didn't want to give up all of my mansions, yachts, luxury cars and supermodels. It just wasn't worth the risk.

[BCR]

Why are you better equipped to do a few years in federal prison? You have a very flexible sphincter? Already HIV+? Member of a skinhead gang that will protect you?

Nah, that's more state prison.

Micon seems like the type who can't sit still. I think I'd fare better at keeping my head down and dealing with the boredom. I think almost anyone would deal with it better than Micon.

[BCR]

Knowing what we know now, I would have rolled the dice in his spot.

I was given the opportunity to roll these dice. I didnt because I knew what it would take to do it right, and I also knew that there was a chance that even if I did it right, Id still be blued screwed and tattooed.

The minimum commitment necessary to engage in that gambit is to renounce American citizenship and relocate to someplace that turns a blind eye to online gambling. GG family, GG friends, hello Costa Rica. And if Costa Rica caves and changes its mind about being a haven for online gambling bullshit?

Fucked.

For.

Life.


Im sorry but I just dont see the equity in being a D- level poker celebrity for a site that's offsetting its online poker risk by embracing a currency whose principle market participants are drug dealers, spammers, and identity thieves, unless of course you're totally unqualified to hold down legit employme-..... ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Interesting. Yeah, I guess I'm looking at it as something that he has like a 95% chance of skating, 4% chance you end up doing 18 months, 1% that scenario. I guess when I say with what we know now, I'm thinking more of being in early on btc, but we'd all do that now. I think he needed the money more than he liked the attention, but he likes the latter a lot too.


I just wish the concept of btc would have been brought to the community by someone other than Micon. If someone like Druff or a host of others brought it up, said they thought there was a chance it could blow up, it would have been something that a lot of people threw a $1000 at and if it went to $0, oh well.

I listened to Micon's enthusiasm, but I don't know shit about cyber security. He also thought his wii videos while peeing would go viral. He's likeable, but real hard to take serious.

[Muck Ficon]

Why are you better equipped to do a few years in federal prison? You have a very flexible sphincter? Already HIV+? Member of a skinhead gang that will protect you?

Nah, that's more state prison.

Micon seems like the type who can't sit still. I think I'd fare better at keeping my head down and dealing with the boredom. I think almost anyone would deal with it better than Micon.

Micon is also a Jew, so he's shit out of luck trying to get in with the Aryan Brotherhood. He couldn't even lie and say he wasn't Jewish, his nose gives it away. He'd probably have to become some black guys bitch in return for protection.

[Pooh]

If Micon did go to prison for this it would more than likely be a country club atmosphere like the one Victor Conte and that guy that was on the radio show went to. It's white collar crime. He isn't going to be amongst rapist and murderers. There's no fucking way.

[jacosta24]

Micon is doing God's work over at Seals too bad he will be serving a prison sentence in the future.

Bump

[Tellafriend]

If Micon did go to prison for this it would more than likely be a country club atmosphere like the one Victor Conte and that guy that was on the radio show went to. It's white collar crime. He isn't going to be amongst rapist and murderers. There's no fucking way.

you usually need some pull to do the federal country club prison time, like a celebrity, judge or politician.

[garrett]

If Micon did go to prison for this it would more than likely be a country club atmosphere like the one Victor Conte and that guy that was on the radio show went to. It's white collar crime. He isn't going to be amongst rapist and murderers. There's no fucking way.

you usually need some pull to do the federal country club prison time, like a celebrity, judge or politician.

Exactly, he is going to State prison and somewhere in Nevada.

He will be in general population, minimum security, with the likes of deadbeat dads who don't pay child support, DUI offenders etc...

Their is always them one or two crazy motherfuckers peppered in there also though. So its never easy or just a walk when having to spend months upon months in a dormitory with the same fuckign men day in and day out. Their is some husle goin' on and usually it is also the quickest was to get your ass kicked when doing time, GAMBLING...

Micon will have plenty of commissary so he shouldn't worry. Just needs to play top top LOL!