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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    2+2 abandoning long-used vBulletin software on March 30, and switching to "Vanilla" forum software which everyone hates

    Here's the thread where it's being announced: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/5...anges-1765461/

    Chuck Weinstock, their system administrator, is claiming that this is necessary because their version vBulletin is no longer supported (true), and they will not be issuing security updates (also true).

    However, this makes no sense. vBulletin version 4 (what they use, and also what PFA uses) is stable and doesn't have any known major security flaws. Why switch now? And if they really must switch, why not go to vBulletin 5, which IS supported?

    Here's the awful software they'll be using: https://twoplustwo.vanillacommunities.com/

    Everyone hates it. This is very bizarre.

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    Diamond mulva's Avatar
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    that stuff is brutal and is a clear downgrade in user experience
    Quote Originally Posted by bottomset_69 View Post
    Johnny Manziel will be the 1st pick in the draft. I truly believe not only will Johnny Manziel be rookie of the year, quite possibly he will be MVP as his style will shock defensive coordinators. Manziel may only be 6 feet tall, but he has size 15 feet. And he has HUGE hands. I know some NFL scouts so I know what I am talking about.



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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Also, laughably the migration will take 4 days, so anything posted between now and March 30 on the current site will be lost.


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    Plutonium lol wow's Avatar
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    hold on i got this JUST LIKE TINES BELT LINE A ZING POW KABLAM BABY

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    Plutonium lol wow's Avatar
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    GET IT CUZ ANYTHING POSTED BETWEEN NOW AND THE 30TH WILL BE LOST MUCH LIKE THE HUMANITY SLASH FOOD THAT GOES IN HIS BELLY

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    Great show Druff! A few comments re: the discussion of 2+2 moving over to Vanilla Forums:

    - The "upgrade trap" is why I recommend not customizing software by hacking at it, but rather by using approved extension mechanisms like plugins, etc. Being trapped on an obsolete platform generally means that company run website using insecure, inefficient stacks exactly because the cost of upgrading is so painful

    - Vanilla Forums is a modern, flexible forum system. Other modern platforms are Discourse, Flarum, vBulletin 5, Invision, etc.

    - Vanilla Forums can look however you want them to, the theming is incredibly flexible. You could make it look exactly like vBulletin if you wanted. Here's an example of a poker-related Vanilla Forums site: http://www.crushlivepoker.com/forums...egy-discussion

    - Vanilla Forums is not just a cloud hosted platform. You can self-host it, and do whatever you want with it, just like you can with vBulletin or Invision. vBulletin also offers similar cloud hosting options https://docs.vanillaforums.com/devel.../self-hosting/

    - The OSS version of Vanilla Forums is 100% free. https://vanillaforums.com/en/software/ & https://open.vanillaforums.com/

    - Tradereski is correct that you can't just downgrade the version of PHP that you run on a new host, because the underlying OS distribution doesn't support it

    - PHP 5.6 end of life happened back in December, 2018; PHP 7.3 is the supported platform, and it's significantly improved (and much faster)

    - End of Life = "A release that is no longer supported. Users of this release should upgrade as soon as possible, as they may be exposed to unpatched security vulnerabilities." https://www.php.net/supported-versions.php

    - Rackspace (the hosting used by 2+2) is infamous for overcharging corporate clients "because no one ever got fired for choosing rackspace". There are so many better alternatives out there
    Last edited by khalwat; 04-02-2020 at 10:59 AM.

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    Plutonium Sanlmar's Avatar
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    Hey Khalwat!

    Your last show was excellent.

    I’ve made some comments in the past - now I’m obliged to compliment you too.

    Hopefully you’re back soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanlmar View Post
    Hey Khalwat!

    Your last show was excellent.

    I’ve made some comments in the past - now I’m obliged to compliment you too.

    Hopefully you’re back soon.
    Thanks man! Glad you enjoyed it!

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khalwat View Post
    Great show Druff! A few comments re: the discussion of 2+2 moving over to Vanilla Forums:

    - The "upgrade trap" is why I recommend not customizing software by hacking at it, but rather by using approved extension mechanisms like plugins, etc. Being trapped on an obsolete platform generally means that company run website using insecure, inefficient stacks exactly because the cost of upgrading is so painful

    - Vanilla Forums is a modern, flexible forum system. Other modern platforms are Discourse, Flarum, vBulletin 5, Invision, etc.

    - Vanilla Forums can look however you want them to, the theming is incredibly flexible. You could make it look exactly like vBulletin if you wanted. Here's an example of a poker-related Vanilla Forums site: http://www.crushlivepoker.com/forums...egy-discussion

    - Vanilla Forums is not just a cloud hosted platform. You can self-host it, and do whatever you want with it, just like you can with vBulletin or Invision. vBulletin also offers similar cloud hosting options https://docs.vanillaforums.com/devel.../self-hosting/

    - The OSS version of Vanilla Forums is 100% free. https://vanillaforums.com/en/software/ & https://open.vanillaforums.com/

    - Tradereski is correct that you can't just downgrade the version of PHP that you run on a new host, because the underlying OS distribution doesn't support it

    - PHP 5.6 end of life happened back in December, 2018; PHP 7.3 is the supported platform, and it's significantly improved (and much faster)

    - End of Life = "A release that is no longer supported. Users of this release should upgrade as soon as possible, as they may be exposed to unpatched security vulnerabilities." https://www.php.net/supported-versions.php

    - Rackspace (the hosting used by 2+2) is infamous for overcharging corporate clients "because no one ever got fired for choosing rackspace". There are so many better alternatives out there
    I discussed all this via text with khalwat today (and moved the above 3 posts from the radio thread, so all of this discussion is in one place).

    I learned today from khalwat that Vanilla is actually a FREE solution if you self-host! Why didn't I know this? Because they aren't at all clear about this on their homepage, since they clearly want you on their expensive cloud solution. To vBulletin's credit, they make it very clear that you have two options -- cloud or local (though their local solution is a one-time expense, whereas Vanilla's is free).

    Strangely, Mason did NOT dispute that they're going to an expensive cloud solution, so perhaps they don't realize it either!

    I went down the "need to downgrade PHP" route in early 2019, and found that it was either impossible or very difficult, and ultimately elected to just go with a later PHP 5 and take the lesser of the two headaches. It's still not clear to me if downgrading PHP to one not supported by the OS is impossible or just very difficult and not recommended.

    khalwat is also correct that, by doing custom modifications to software like I have here (and what 2+2 did), you do end up in an "upgrade trap", where it is very difficult to upgrade versions, and sometimes you're stuck with obsolete/vulnerable software. However, I've always felt it's tradeoff and you need to assess your needs and see what solution is right for you. It's important for me to be able to modify vBulletin as I see fit, so I decided to marry myself to vBulletin 4 for many years, until that no longer becomes practical. For now, it's still practical.
    Yes, PHP 5.6 (which I use) is 2x as slow as PHP 7.3, but as you see, this site runs fast enough, and my hosting fees aren't terribly expensive, so I don't mind that.

    khalwat showed me a Vanilla site he manages, and it looks pretty good. So a Vanilla forum doesn't need to look like garbage -- it's all how you customize it. He also said 2+2 could modify the template enough to where it would look just like old 2+2. But... why? Instead of changing to Vanilla and making it look like vBulletin, why not just go with vBulletin?

    I still feel they would be better off going with vBulletin 5 or Invision, since that's the type of interface their users have been long used to, and you don't want to hit them with changes, or some might leave.

    Hope to hear khalwat back on radio soon!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    But... why? Instead of changing to Vanilla and making it look like vBulletin, why not just go with vBulletin?

    I still feel they would be better off going with vBulletin 5 or Invision, since that's the type of interface their users have been long used to, and you don't want to hit them with changes, or some might leave.

    Hope to hear khalwat back on radio soon!
    Yeah I have no good answers to why they decided to switch to Vanilla. One would think that self-hosted vBulletin 5 would be a more straightforward upgrade path, but I'm not aware of their requirements or technical discussions.

    All I can say is that Vanilla is quite a nice platform -- as are many others -- but it's up to you how good it does or doesn't look & function.

    I think any change, people will complain about, even change for the better. But yeah change for the worse would result in excoriation. Let's hope they don't screw the pooch too badly on the transition.

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    Diamond Hockey Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by khalwat View Post
    Great show Druff! A few comments re: the discussion of 2+2 moving over to Vanilla Forums:

    - The "upgrade trap" is why I recommend not customizing software by hacking at it, but rather by using approved extension mechanisms like plugins, etc. Being trapped on an obsolete platform generally means that company run website using insecure, inefficient stacks exactly because the cost of upgrading is so painful

    - Vanilla Forums is a modern, flexible forum system. Other modern platforms are Discourse, Flarum, vBulletin 5, Invision, etc.

    - Vanilla Forums can look however you want them to, the theming is incredibly flexible. You could make it look exactly like vBulletin if you wanted. Here's an example of a poker-related Vanilla Forums site: http://www.crushlivepoker.com/forums...egy-discussion

    - Vanilla Forums is not just a cloud hosted platform. You can self-host it, and do whatever you want with it, just like you can with vBulletin or Invision. vBulletin also offers similar cloud hosting options https://docs.vanillaforums.com/devel.../self-hosting/

    - The OSS version of Vanilla Forums is 100% free. https://vanillaforums.com/en/software/ & https://open.vanillaforums.com/

    - Tradereski is correct that you can't just downgrade the version of PHP that you run on a new host, because the underlying OS distribution doesn't support it

    - PHP 5.6 end of life happened back in December, 2018; PHP 7.3 is the supported platform, and it's significantly improved (and much faster)

    - End of Life = "A release that is no longer supported. Users of this release should upgrade as soon as possible, as they may be exposed to unpatched security vulnerabilities." https://www.php.net/supported-versions.php

    - Rackspace (the hosting used by 2+2) is infamous for overcharging corporate clients "because no one ever got fired for choosing rackspace". There are so many better alternatives out there
    I discussed all this via text with khalwat today (and moved the above 3 posts from the radio thread, so all of this discussion is in one place).

    I learned today from khalwat that Vanilla is actually a FREE solution if you self-host! Why didn't I know this? Because they aren't at all clear about this on their homepage, since they clearly want you on their expensive cloud solution. To vBulletin's credit, they make it very clear that you have two options -- cloud or local (though their local solution is a one-time expense, whereas Vanilla's is free).

    Strangely, Mason did NOT dispute that they're going to an expensive cloud solution, so perhaps they don't realize it either!

    I went down the "need to downgrade PHP" route in early 2019, and found that it was either impossible or very difficult, and ultimately elected to just go with a later PHP 5 and take the lesser of the two headaches. It's still not clear to me if downgrading PHP to one not supported by the OS is impossible or just very difficult and not recommended.

    khalwat is also correct that, by doing custom modifications to software like I have here (and what 2+2 did), you do end up in an "upgrade trap", where it is very difficult to upgrade versions, and sometimes you're stuck with obsolete/vulnerable software. However, I've always felt it's tradeoff and you need to assess your needs and see what solution is right for you. It's important for me to be able to modify vBulletin as I see fit, so I decided to marry myself to vBulletin 4 for many years, until that no longer becomes practical. For now, it's still practical.
    Yes, PHP 5.6 (which I use) is 2x as slow as PHP 7.3, but as you see, this site runs fast enough, and my hosting fees aren't terribly expensive, so I don't mind that.

    khalwat showed me a Vanilla site he manages, and it looks pretty good. So a Vanilla forum doesn't need to look like garbage -- it's all how you customize it. He also said 2+2 could modify the template enough to where it would look just like old 2+2. But... why? Instead of changing to Vanilla and making it look like vBulletin, why not just go with vBulletin?

    I still feel they would be better off going with vBulletin 5 or Invision, since that's the type of interface their users have been long used to, and you don't want to hit them with changes, or some might leave.

    Hope to hear khalwat back on radio soon!
    Everybody should bookmark this post.

    This is probably as close as we'll ever get to Druff admitting he may have been slightly misinformed & may not be quite 100% correct.

    As for the bolded part, maybe he has others handle this & doesn't really fully understand & doesn't feel like spouting off on things he doesn't 100% know & would rather just trust the people he's put in charge of it.
    (•_•) ..
    ∫\ \___( •_•)
    _∫∫ _∫∫ɯ \ \

    Quote Originally Posted by Hockey Guy
    I'd say good luck in the freeroll but I'm pretty sure you'll go on a bender to self-sabotage yourself & miss it completely or use it as the excuse of why you didn't cash.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    I went down the "need to downgrade PHP" route in early 2019, and found that it was either impossible or very difficult, and ultimately elected to just go with a later PHP 5 and take the lesser of the two headaches. It's still not clear to me if downgrading PHP to one not supported by the OS is impossible or just very difficult and not recommended.
    So with software, nothing is impossible; it's a matter of time and money. So probably the right way I should have phrased it would be that it'd be "impractical" to do; but even that doesn't feel strong enough.

    You end up going down a nightmare of a rabbit hole, filled with monkey patch after monkey patch, all attempting to keep the original monkey patch alive and working.

    This results in a teetering, unwieldy structure that'd make Dr. Seuss proud.

    Much better is to update quickly, and update often. Fix problems while they are small and few in number, don't wait until they are huge and many. And keep the platform solid & secure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    khalwat is also correct that, by doing custom modifications to software like I have here (and what 2+2 did), you do end up in an "upgrade trap", where it is very difficult to upgrade versions, and sometimes you're stuck with obsolete/vulnerable software. However, I've always felt it's tradeoff and you need to assess your needs and see what solution is right for you. It's important for me to be able to modify vBulletin as I see fit, so I decided to marry myself to vBulletin 4 for many years, until that no longer becomes practical. For now, it's still practical.
    Yeah I get it. It's not worth the effort for you to redo all the things, which is perfectly fair.

    Whenever that time does come, though, and you end up redoing all the things... I'd suggest adopting a policy of modifying things only via existing documented mechanisms (plugins, hooks, services, whatever) and then doing lots of small updates on a regular basis, rather than pushing things off to one, daunting, scary, monolithic update.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Yes, PHP 5.6 (which I use) is 2x as slow as PHP 7.3, but as you see, this site runs fast enough, and my hosting fees aren't terribly expensive, so I don't mind that.
    For you this doesn't matter, but speaking generally, you also get locked in the other way: new, modern stuff won't run on the old version of PHP that you have.

  14. #14
    NoFraud Poker Room Manager Belly Buster's Avatar
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    You can install php 5.6 on, for example, the current supported version of Ubuntu; I just tried it - took about 5 mins to google how and install it.

    If your hosting provider dicatates which version(s) of php you must use, then you're probably using the wrong provider.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    BTW JACKDANIELS is the first one banned from the thread. He is accusing me of being "duped by a middle aged man who dresses like John Cena"
    #FREEJACK #NEVERFORGET

    NoFraud Online Poker Room: http://nofraud.pokerfraudalert.com:8087. For password resets and reload requests PM me.

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belly Buster View Post
    You can install php 5.6 on, for example, the current supported version of Ubuntu; I just tried it - took about 5 mins to google how and install it.

    If your hosting provider dicatates which version(s) of php you must use, then you're probably using the wrong provider.
    Most hosting providers come with PHP already installed. They don't tend to mandate that you can't downgrade it, but when I looked into how to downgrade to the version I needed (I think 5.3), it wasn't trivial.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belly Buster View Post
    You can install php 5.6 on, for example, the current supported version of Ubuntu; I just tried it - took about 5 mins to google how and install it.

    If your hosting provider dicatates which version(s) of php you must use, then you're probably using the wrong provider.
    PHP 5.6, despite being EOL'd, can be installed without too much pain -- but if you start going back further to, say, 5.3 it's still doable, but it gets less and less fun. Anything is possible with software.

    But at some point it makes sense to upgrade your application rather than downgrading your stack.

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