Thread: Time to get on the TRUMP train

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    I LOVE HOW ATINE IMPLIES THAT HE IS A FUNCTIONING ADULT. FUNNIEST PART OF THAT POST.
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  2. #37682
    Quote Originally Posted by sonatine View Post
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/22/u...erference.html

    blake i cant find the post where you were like 'what do you have against russia' but here.
    paywall and i'd have to use my work login which i don't have on me.

    cliffs?

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    Nice summary of Ukraine kerfuffle impeachment hearings by Ari Melber.


     
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      dwai: SHUT THE FUCK UP FAGGOT BITCH
    _____________________________________________
    “Nothing is more intolerable than to have admit to yourself your own errors.” —Ludwig van Beethoven

    “[T]he US has a much more sophisticated epidemic disease control system than China, so the risk of [SARS-CoV-2] spreading to a large percentage of the US population is likely very low.” — MumblesBadly, 1/30/20

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    Quote Originally Posted by MumblesBadly View Post
    Nice summary of Ukraine kerfuffle impeachment hearings by Ari Melber.


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    Quote Originally Posted by bottomset_69 View Post
    Johnny Manziel will be the 1st pick in the draft. I truly believe not only will Johnny Manziel be rookie of the year, quite possibly he will be MVP as his style will shock defensive coordinators. Manziel may only be 6 feet tall, but he has size 15 feet. And he has HUGE hands. I know some NFL scouts so I know what I am talking about.



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    100% Organic MumblesBadly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Mumbles, Trump ain't going to prison, nor is he going to get removed from office.

    This impeachment might or might not affect his reelection in 2020. But that's about it.
    If Trump does not get convicted by the Senate *and* loses re-election, the incoming president would be obligated by duty to the office to being charges against Trump for the crimes that the Mueller report and impeachment hearings have uncovered. That is, unless Trump resigns from office before his term is up and has Mike Pence give him a blanket pardon before the president-elect is sworn in.

     
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      dwai: SHUT THE FUCK UP FAGGOT BITCH
    _____________________________________________
    “Nothing is more intolerable than to have admit to yourself your own errors.” —Ludwig van Beethoven

    “[T]he US has a much more sophisticated epidemic disease control system than China, so the risk of [SARS-CoV-2] spreading to a large percentage of the US population is likely very low.” — MumblesBadly, 1/30/20

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    Nova Scotia's REAL #1 Webcam DJ sonatine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blake View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sonatine View Post
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/22/u...erference.html

    blake i cant find the post where you were like 'what do you have against russia' but here.
    paywall and i'd have to use my work login which i don't have on me.

    cliffs?
    russia spun the entire ukraine / crowdstrike / 2016 fiction and trump bought it because ok boomer.

    Charges of Ukrainian Meddling? A Russian Operation, U.S. Intelligence Says
    Moscow has run a yearslong operation to blame Ukraine for its own 2016 election interference. Republicans have used similar talking points to defend President Trump in impeachment proceedings.


    President Vladmir V. Putin of Russia has been pushing false theories of Ukrainian interference since early 2017, according to American officials.
    President Vladmir V. Putin of Russia has been pushing false theories of Ukrainian interference since early 2017, according to American officials.Credit...Alexei Druzhinin/Sputnik, via Reuters
    By Julian E. Barnes and Matthew Rosenberg
    Nov. 22, 2019, 1:34 p.m. ET

    706
    WASHINGTON — Republicans have sought for weeks amid the impeachment inquiry to shift attention to President Trump’s demands that Ukraine investigate any 2016 election meddling, defending it as a legitimate concern while Democrats accuse Mr. Trump of pursuing fringe theories for his benefit.

    The Republican defense of Mr. Trump became central to the impeachment proceedings when Fiona Hill, a respected Russia scholar and former senior White House official, added a harsh critique during testimony on Thursday. She told some of Mr. Trump’s fiercest defenders in Congress that they were repeating “a fictional narrative.” She said that it likely came from a disinformation campaign by Russian security services, which also propagated it.

    In a briefing that closely aligned with Dr. Hill’s testimony, American intelligence officials informed senators and their aides in recent weeks that Russia had engaged in a yearslong campaign to essentially frame Ukraine as responsible for Moscow’s own hacking of the 2016 election, according to three American officials. The briefing came as Republicans stepped up their defenses of Mr. Trump in the Ukraine affair.

    The revelations demonstrate Russia’s persistence in trying to sow discord among its adversaries — and show that the Kremlin apparently succeeded, as unfounded claims about Ukrainian interference seeped into Republican talking points. American intelligence agencies believe Moscow is likely to redouble its efforts as the 2020 presidential campaign intensifies. The classified briefing for senators also focused on Russia’s evolving influence tactics, including its growing ability to better disguise operations.

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    Russia has engaged in a “long pattern of deflection” to pin blame for its malevolent acts on other countries, Dr. Hill said, not least Ukraine, a former Soviet republic. Since Ukraine won independence in 1991, Russia has tried to reassert influence there, meddling in its politics, maligning pro-Western leaders and accusing Ukrainian critics of Moscow of fascist leanings.

    “The Russians have a particular vested interest in putting Ukraine, Ukrainian leaders in a very bad light,” she told lawmakers.

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    But the campaign by Russian intelligence in recent years has been even more complex as Moscow tries not only to undermine the government in Kyiv but also to use a disinformation campaign there to influence the American political debate.

    RUSSIA’S PLAYBOOK FOR DISRUPTING DEMOCRACYThe Kremlin had a blueprint for upending American politics with tactics honed in other former Soviet satellite states. Watch “The Weekly,” our TV show, available to Times subscribers in the U.S.
    The accusations of a Ukrainian influence campaign center on actions by a handful of Ukrainians who openly criticized or sought to damage Mr. Trump’s candidacy in 2016. They were scattershot efforts that were far from a replica of Moscow’s interference, when President Vladimir V. Putin ordered military and intelligence operatives to mount a broad campaign to sabotage the American election. The Russians in 2016 conducted covert operations to hack Democratic computers and to use social media to exploit divisions among Americans.

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    This time, Russian intelligence operatives deployed a network of agents to blame Ukraine for its 2016 interference. Starting at least in 2017, the operatives peddled a mixture of now-debunked conspiracy theories along with established facts to leave an impression that the government in Kyiv, not Moscow, was responsible for the hackings of Democrats and its other interference efforts in 2016, senior intelligence officials said.

    The Russian intelligence officers conveyed the information to prominent Russians and Ukrainians who then used a range of intermediaries, like oligarchs, businessmen and their associates, to pass the material to American political figures and even some journalists, who were likely unaware of its origin, the officials said.

    Impeachment Inquiry
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    Who was the latest to testify?
    Fiona Hill, the White House’s former top Europe and Russia expert, who had testified previously about her efforts to oppose the pressure campaign on Ukraine; and David Holmes, an official in the United States Embassy in Ukraine, who was a witness to a key phone call between President Trump and Gordon Sondland, his ambassador to the European Union.
    What were the highlights?
    Dr. Hill criticized Republicans for promoting what she called a “fictional narrative” embraced by Mr. Trump: that Ukraine, not Russia, meddled in the 2016 elections.
    Dr. Hill called Mr. Trump’s demands for Ukraine to announce investigations into Joe Biden and the 2016 elections a “domestic political errand” that diverged from American foreign policy goals.
    Dr. Hill was asked about a now-famous line from her deposition, in which she quoted John Bolton, the national security adviser at the time, as saying, “I am not part of whatever drug deal Sondland and Mulvaney are cooking up.” She said she took “drug deal” to mean the scheme of exchanging a White House meeting for the investigations Mr. Trump sought.
    Both Dr. Hill and Mr. Holmes said that the use of the name “Burisma” — a Ukrainian energy company — was code for investigating the Bidens. Asked whether “anyone involved in Ukraine matters in the spring and summer would understand that as well,” Mr. Holmes had a one-word answer: “Yes.”
    Mr. Holmes said he had a “clear impression” that the hold on nearly $400 million in military aid for Ukraine was “likely intended by the president either as an expression of dissatisfaction with the Ukrainians who had not yet agreed to the Burisma/Biden investigation, or as an effort to increase the pressure on them to do so.”
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    That muddy brew worked its way into American information ecosystems, sloshing around until parts of it reached Mr. Trump, who has also spoken with Mr. Putin about allegations of Ukrainian interference. Mr. Trump also brought up the assertions of Ukrainian meddling in his July 25 call with President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine, which is at the heart of the impeachment inquiry into whether he abused his power by asking for a public commitment to investigations he stood to gain from personally.

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    Image“This is a fictional narrative that has been perpetrated and propagated by the Russian security services themselves,” said Fiona Hill, the former top Russia expert on the National Security Council.
    “This is a fictional narrative that has been perpetrated and propagated by the Russian security services themselves,” said Fiona Hill, the former top Russia expert on the National Security Council.Credit...Doug Mills/The New York Times
    Mr. Trump referred elliptically to allegations that Ukraine meddled in the 2016 election and brought up a related conspiracy theory. Asking Mr. Zelensky to “do us a favor,” Mr. Trump added, “I would like you to find out what happened with this whole situation with Ukraine.”

    Russia’s operation to blame Ukraine has become more relevant as Republicans have tried to focus public debate during the impeachment inquiry on any Ukrainian role in the 2016 campaign, American officials said.

    Republicans have denounced any suggestion that their concerns about Ukrainian meddling are without merit or that they are ignoring Russia’s broader interference. “Not a single Republican member of this committee said Russia did not meddle in the 2016 elections,” Representative Elise Stefanik, Republican of New York, said Thursday.

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    Indeed, Ms. Stefanik and her Republican colleagues on the Democratic-led House Intelligence Committee, which is conducting the impeachment hearing, have also steered clear of the fringe notion that Mr. Trump mentioned to Mr. Zelensky, which is pushed by Russian intelligence: the so-called CrowdStrike server conspiracy theory, which falsely suggests Ukraine, not Russia, was behind the breach of Democratic operatives’ servers.

    Mr. Trump repeated the baseless claim on Friday in an interview with “Fox & Friends,” laying out the narrative and doubling down after a host gently pressed him on whether he was sure of one aspect of the debunked theory, that the F.B.I. gave a Democratic server to what Mr. Trump had inaccurately described as a Ukrainian-owned company.

    “That is what the word is,” Mr. Trump replied.

    Some Republicans have also focused on Hunter Biden, raising questions about whether his hiring by the Ukrainian energy company Burisma was corrupt. Burisma hired Mr. Biden while his father, former Vice President Joseph Biden Jr., a potential rival of Mr. Trump’s in the 2020 election, was leading the Obama administration’s Ukraine policy. On the July 25 call, Mr. Trump also demanded Mr. Zelensky investigate Burisma and Hunter Biden.

    Moscow has long used its intelligence agencies and propaganda machine to muddy the waters of public debate, casting doubts over established facts. In her testimony, Dr. Hill noted Russia’s pattern of trying to blame other countries for its own actions, like the attempted poisoning last year of a former Russian intelligence officer or the downing of a passenger jet over Ukraine in 2014. Moscow’s goal is to cast doubt on established facts, said current and former officials.

    “The strategy is simply to create the impression that it is not really possible to know who was really behind it,” said Laura Rosenberger, the director of the Alliance for Securing Democracy, which tracks Russian disinformation efforts.

    Although American intelligence agencies have made no formal classified assessment about the Russian disinformation campaign against Ukraine, officials at several of the agencies have broadly agreed for some time that Russian intelligence services have embraced tactics to shift responsibility for the 2016 interference campaign away from themselves, officials said.

    Russia has relentlessly tried to deflect attention since the allegations of its interference campaign in the 2016 election first surfaced, one official said.

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    Mr. Putin began publicly pushing false theories of Ukrainian interference in the early months of 2017 to deflect responsibility from Russia, said Senator Angus King, independent of Maine and a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, who declined to answer questions about the briefing.

    “These people are pros at this,” said Mr. King, who caucuses with the Democrats. “The Soviet Union used disinformation for 70 years. This is nothing new. Vladimir Putin is a former K.G.B. agent. He is trained in deception. This is his stock and trade and he is doing it well.”

    During a news conference in February 2017, Mr. Putin accused the Ukrainian government of supporting Hillary Clinton during the previous American election and funding her candidacy with friendly oligarchs.

    It is not clear when American intelligence agencies learned about Moscow’s campaign or when precisely it began.


    Image
    Mr. Trump asked President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine to investigate claims of Ukrainian interference in the 2016 election.
    Mr. Trump asked President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine to investigate claims of Ukrainian interference in the 2016 election.Credit...Pete Marovich for The New York Times
    Russian intelligence officers aimed part of their operation at prompting the Ukrainian authorities to investigate the allegations that people in Ukraine tried to tamper with the 2016 American election and to shut down inquiries into corruption by pro-Russian politicians in Ukraine, according to a former official.

    One target was the leak of a secret ledger disclosed by a Ukrainian law enforcement agency that appeared to show that Paul Manafort, Mr. Trump’s onetime campaign chairman, had taken illicit payments from Ukrainian politicians who were close to Moscow. He was forced to step down from the Trump campaign after the ledger became public in August 2016, and the Russians have since been eager to cast doubt on its authenticity, the former official said.

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    Intelligence officials believe that one of the people the Kremlin relied on to spread disinformation about Ukrainian interference was Oleg V. Deripaska, a Russian oligarch who had ties to Mr. Manafort. After his ouster from the campaign, Mr. Manafort told his former deputy later in 2016 that Ukrainians, not Russians, stole Democratic emails. Mr. Deripaska has broadly denied any role in election meddling.

    “There is a long history of Russians putting out fake information,” said Marc Polymeropoulos, a former senior C.I.A. official. “Now they are trying to put out theories that they think are damaging to the United States.”

    Correction: Nov. 22, 2019
    An earlier version of this article misstated the organization where Laura Rosenberger is the director. It is the Alliance for Securing Democracy, not the Alliance for Defending Democracy.

     
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      blake:
    "Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

    "America is not so much a nightmare as a non-dream. The American non-dream is precisely a move to wipe the dream out of existence. The dream is a spontaneous happening and therefore dangerous to a control system set up by the non-dreamers." -- William S. Burroughs



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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Current top story on CNN.com:

    "Why Republicans Fall Back on Conspiracy Theories: In the age of Trump, facts are less important than clinging to a disproven conspiracy theory that keeps the President happy"

    That's the actual headline.

    The writer of this would have flunked Journalism 101 with hyper-biased headlines like that.

    CNN really has become the fake news which Trump accused them of being 3-4 years ago. They actually morphed into a caricature of his accusation. Amazing.

     
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      MumblesBadly: Fiona Hill just testified at the impeaching hearing making the case that the CNN reflects.

  8. #37688
    Nova Scotia's REAL #1 Webcam DJ sonatine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Current top story on CNN.com:

    "Why Republicans Fall Back on Conspiracy Theories: In the age of Trump, facts are less important than clinging to a disproven conspiracy theory that keeps the President happy"

    That's the actual headline.

    The writer of this would have flunked Journalism 101 with hyper-biased headlines like that.

    CNN really has become the fake news which Trump accused them of being 3-4 years ago. They actually morphed into a caricature of his accusation. Amazing.

    you should totally bring it up again and see if it changes anything.
    "Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

    "America is not so much a nightmare as a non-dream. The American non-dream is precisely a move to wipe the dream out of existence. The dream is a spontaneous happening and therefore dangerous to a control system set up by the non-dreamers." -- William S. Burroughs



    http://www.lolstockaments.com/

  9. #37689
    100% Organic MumblesBadly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Current top story on CNN.com:

    "Why Republicans Fall Back on Conspiracy Theories: In the age of Trump, facts are less important than clinging to a disproven conspiracy theory that keeps the President happy"

    That's the actual headline.

    The writer of this would have flunked Journalism 101 with hyper-biased headlines like that.

    CNN really has become the fake news which Trump accused them of being 3-4 years ago. They actually morphed into a caricature of his accusation. Amazing.

    Putting aside the issue of whether CNN is “fake news”, answer this question: Given the evidence that came out during the recent impeachment gearings, do you believe that Trump should be removed from office for abusing his power? If not, why?

     
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      dwai: SHUT THE FUCK UP FAGGOT BITCH
    _____________________________________________
    “Nothing is more intolerable than to have admit to yourself your own errors.” —Ludwig van Beethoven

    “[T]he US has a much more sophisticated epidemic disease control system than China, so the risk of [SARS-CoV-2] spreading to a large percentage of the US population is likely very low.” — MumblesBadly, 1/30/20

  10. #37690
    Quote Originally Posted by MumblesBadly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Mumbles, Trump ain't going to prison, nor is he going to get removed from office.

    This impeachment might or might not affect his reelection in 2020. But that's about it.
    If Trump does not get convicted by the Senate *and* loses re-election, the incoming president would be obligated by duty to the office to being charges against Trump for the crimes that the Mueller report and impeachment hearings have uncovered. That is, unless Trump resigns from office before his term is up and has Mike Pence give him a blanket pardon before the president-elect is sworn in.
    except an unwritten rule is that presidents don't go after their predecessors as they wouldn't want it done to them. he's not going to jail

  11. #37691
    Quote Originally Posted by blake View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sonatine View Post
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/22/u...erference.html

    blake i cant find the post where you were like 'what do you have against russia' but here.
    paywall and i'd have to use my work login which i don't have on me.

    cliffs?
    well, i don't doubt anything fiona hill was said and it's not as if i think russia is a non-issue for us. i just think tulsi gets a bit too tarnished with the russian menace.

    while we're discussing fiona, i actually had a chance to watch the hearings yesterday, and she is an absolute rockstar. just an amazingly compelling witness.

    even adam schiff, who i went in having negative feelings about, made one of the best closing arguments i have ever seen in any setting. if you all haven't seen his argument at the end of the hearing, he makes a fantastic case for impeachment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blake View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by blake View Post

    paywall and i'd have to use my work login which i don't have on me.

    cliffs?
    well, i don't doubt anything fiona hill was said and it's not as if i think russia is a non-issue for us. i just think tulsi gets a bit too tarnished with the russian menace.

    while we're discussing fiona, i actually had a chance to watch the hearings yesterday, and she is an absolute rockstar. just an amazingly compelling witness.

    even adam schiff, who i went in having negative feelings about, made one of the best closing arguments i have ever seen in any setting. if you all haven't seen his argument at the end of the hearing, he makes a fantastic case for impeachment.

    related note; the narrative the GOP is settling on via Rudy / Ukraine is drawing them into direct confrontation with the literal russian mafia.
    "Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

    "America is not so much a nightmare as a non-dream. The American non-dream is precisely a move to wipe the dream out of existence. The dream is a spontaneous happening and therefore dangerous to a control system set up by the non-dreamers." -- William S. Burroughs



    http://www.lolstockaments.com/

  13. #37693
    Nova Scotia's REAL #1 Webcam DJ sonatine's Avatar
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    speaking of which

    https://twitter.com/#!/x/status/1197607345414660098

    couple of things. one, she is a serious person. there are so few serious people in this administration, because serious people don't tolerate fools or criminals.

    secondly, juuuuuust fuckin lol at nunes' face as that daily beast article gets quoted into the record.

    just ... savor that shit.
    "Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

    "America is not so much a nightmare as a non-dream. The American non-dream is precisely a move to wipe the dream out of existence. The dream is a spontaneous happening and therefore dangerous to a control system set up by the non-dreamers." -- William S. Burroughs



    http://www.lolstockaments.com/

  14. #37694
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    Quote Originally Posted by MumblesBadly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Current top story on CNN.com:

    "Why Republicans Fall Back on Conspiracy Theories: In the age of Trump, facts are less important than clinging to a disproven conspiracy theory that keeps the President happy"

    That's the actual headline.

    The writer of this would have flunked Journalism 101 with hyper-biased headlines like that.

    CNN really has become the fake news which Trump accused them of being 3-4 years ago. They actually morphed into a caricature of his accusation. Amazing.

    Putting aside the issue of whether CNN is “fake news”, answer this question: Given the evidence that came out during the recent impeachment gearings, do you believe that Trump should be removed from office for abusing his power? If not, why?
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    Quote Originally Posted by bottomset_69 View Post
    Johnny Manziel will be the 1st pick in the draft. I truly believe not only will Johnny Manziel be rookie of the year, quite possibly he will be MVP as his style will shock defensive coordinators. Manziel may only be 6 feet tall, but he has size 15 feet. And he has HUGE hands. I know some NFL scouts so I know what I am talking about.



  15. #37695
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Current top story on CNN.com:

    "Why Republicans Fall Back on Conspiracy Theories: In the age of Trump, facts are less important than clinging to a disproven conspiracy theory that keeps the President happy"

    That's the actual headline.

    The writer of this would have flunked Journalism 101 with hyper-biased headlines like that.

    CNN really has become the fake news which Trump accused them of being 3-4 years ago. They actually morphed into a caricature of his accusation. Amazing.
    Did you watch the hearings?

    GOP leaders are babbling about Crowdstrike, openly lying about procedure, smearing war heroes and lifelong diplomats etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyde View Post
    I am a nice human being who enjoys being upbeat and affable with others

  16. #37696
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonatine View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by blake View Post

    paywall and i'd have to use my work login which i don't have on me.

    cliffs?
    russia spun the entire ukraine / crowdstrike / 2016 fiction and trump bought it because ok boomer.

    Charges of Ukrainian Meddling? A Russian Operation, U.S. Intelligence Says
    Moscow has run a yearslong operation to blame Ukraine for its own 2016 election interference. Republicans have used similar talking points to defend President Trump in impeachment proceedings.


    President Vladmir V. Putin of Russia has been pushing false theories of Ukrainian interference since early 2017, according to American officials.
    President Vladmir V. Putin of Russia has been pushing false theories of Ukrainian interference since early 2017, according to American officials.Credit...Alexei Druzhinin/Sputnik, via Reuters
    By Julian E. Barnes and Matthew Rosenberg
    Nov. 22, 2019, 1:34 p.m. ET

    706
    WASHINGTON — Republicans have sought for weeks amid the impeachment inquiry to shift attention to President Trump’s demands that Ukraine investigate any 2016 election meddling, defending it as a legitimate concern while Democrats accuse Mr. Trump of pursuing fringe theories for his benefit.

    The Republican defense of Mr. Trump became central to the impeachment proceedings when Fiona Hill, a respected Russia scholar and former senior White House official, added a harsh critique during testimony on Thursday. She told some of Mr. Trump’s fiercest defenders in Congress that they were repeating “a fictional narrative.” She said that it likely came from a disinformation campaign by Russian security services, which also propagated it.

    In a briefing that closely aligned with Dr. Hill’s testimony, American intelligence officials informed senators and their aides in recent weeks that Russia had engaged in a yearslong campaign to essentially frame Ukraine as responsible for Moscow’s own hacking of the 2016 election, according to three American officials. The briefing came as Republicans stepped up their defenses of Mr. Trump in the Ukraine affair.

    The revelations demonstrate Russia’s persistence in trying to sow discord among its adversaries — and show that the Kremlin apparently succeeded, as unfounded claims about Ukrainian interference seeped into Republican talking points. American intelligence agencies believe Moscow is likely to redouble its efforts as the 2020 presidential campaign intensifies. The classified briefing for senators also focused on Russia’s evolving influence tactics, including its growing ability to better disguise operations.

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    Russia has engaged in a “long pattern of deflection” to pin blame for its malevolent acts on other countries, Dr. Hill said, not least Ukraine, a former Soviet republic. Since Ukraine won independence in 1991, Russia has tried to reassert influence there, meddling in its politics, maligning pro-Western leaders and accusing Ukrainian critics of Moscow of fascist leanings.

    “The Russians have a particular vested interest in putting Ukraine, Ukrainian leaders in a very bad light,” she told lawmakers.

    You have 5 free articles remaining.
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    But the campaign by Russian intelligence in recent years has been even more complex as Moscow tries not only to undermine the government in Kyiv but also to use a disinformation campaign there to influence the American political debate.

    RUSSIA’S PLAYBOOK FOR DISRUPTING DEMOCRACYThe Kremlin had a blueprint for upending American politics with tactics honed in other former Soviet satellite states. Watch “The Weekly,” our TV show, available to Times subscribers in the U.S.
    The accusations of a Ukrainian influence campaign center on actions by a handful of Ukrainians who openly criticized or sought to damage Mr. Trump’s candidacy in 2016. They were scattershot efforts that were far from a replica of Moscow’s interference, when President Vladimir V. Putin ordered military and intelligence operatives to mount a broad campaign to sabotage the American election. The Russians in 2016 conducted covert operations to hack Democratic computers and to use social media to exploit divisions among Americans.

    ADVERTISEMENT

    Continue reading the main story

    This time, Russian intelligence operatives deployed a network of agents to blame Ukraine for its 2016 interference. Starting at least in 2017, the operatives peddled a mixture of now-debunked conspiracy theories along with established facts to leave an impression that the government in Kyiv, not Moscow, was responsible for the hackings of Democrats and its other interference efforts in 2016, senior intelligence officials said.

    The Russian intelligence officers conveyed the information to prominent Russians and Ukrainians who then used a range of intermediaries, like oligarchs, businessmen and their associates, to pass the material to American political figures and even some journalists, who were likely unaware of its origin, the officials said.

    Impeachment Inquiry
    Latest Updates
    Updated
    Nov. 22, 2019

    Who was the latest to testify?
    Fiona Hill, the White House’s former top Europe and Russia expert, who had testified previously about her efforts to oppose the pressure campaign on Ukraine; and David Holmes, an official in the United States Embassy in Ukraine, who was a witness to a key phone call between President Trump and Gordon Sondland, his ambassador to the European Union.
    What were the highlights?
    Dr. Hill criticized Republicans for promoting what she called a “fictional narrative” embraced by Mr. Trump: that Ukraine, not Russia, meddled in the 2016 elections.
    Dr. Hill called Mr. Trump’s demands for Ukraine to announce investigations into Joe Biden and the 2016 elections a “domestic political errand” that diverged from American foreign policy goals.
    Dr. Hill was asked about a now-famous line from her deposition, in which she quoted John Bolton, the national security adviser at the time, as saying, “I am not part of whatever drug deal Sondland and Mulvaney are cooking up.” She said she took “drug deal” to mean the scheme of exchanging a White House meeting for the investigations Mr. Trump sought.
    Both Dr. Hill and Mr. Holmes said that the use of the name “Burisma” — a Ukrainian energy company — was code for investigating the Bidens. Asked whether “anyone involved in Ukraine matters in the spring and summer would understand that as well,” Mr. Holmes had a one-word answer: “Yes.”
    Mr. Holmes said he had a “clear impression” that the hold on nearly $400 million in military aid for Ukraine was “likely intended by the president either as an expression of dissatisfaction with the Ukrainians who had not yet agreed to the Burisma/Biden investigation, or as an effort to increase the pressure on them to do so.”
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    That muddy brew worked its way into American information ecosystems, sloshing around until parts of it reached Mr. Trump, who has also spoken with Mr. Putin about allegations of Ukrainian interference. Mr. Trump also brought up the assertions of Ukrainian meddling in his July 25 call with President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine, which is at the heart of the impeachment inquiry into whether he abused his power by asking for a public commitment to investigations he stood to gain from personally.

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    Image“This is a fictional narrative that has been perpetrated and propagated by the Russian security services themselves,” said Fiona Hill, the former top Russia expert on the National Security Council.
    “This is a fictional narrative that has been perpetrated and propagated by the Russian security services themselves,” said Fiona Hill, the former top Russia expert on the National Security Council.Credit...Doug Mills/The New York Times
    Mr. Trump referred elliptically to allegations that Ukraine meddled in the 2016 election and brought up a related conspiracy theory. Asking Mr. Zelensky to “do us a favor,” Mr. Trump added, “I would like you to find out what happened with this whole situation with Ukraine.”

    Russia’s operation to blame Ukraine has become more relevant as Republicans have tried to focus public debate during the impeachment inquiry on any Ukrainian role in the 2016 campaign, American officials said.

    Republicans have denounced any suggestion that their concerns about Ukrainian meddling are without merit or that they are ignoring Russia’s broader interference. “Not a single Republican member of this committee said Russia did not meddle in the 2016 elections,” Representative Elise Stefanik, Republican of New York, said Thursday.

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    Indeed, Ms. Stefanik and her Republican colleagues on the Democratic-led House Intelligence Committee, which is conducting the impeachment hearing, have also steered clear of the fringe notion that Mr. Trump mentioned to Mr. Zelensky, which is pushed by Russian intelligence: the so-called CrowdStrike server conspiracy theory, which falsely suggests Ukraine, not Russia, was behind the breach of Democratic operatives’ servers.

    Mr. Trump repeated the baseless claim on Friday in an interview with “Fox & Friends,” laying out the narrative and doubling down after a host gently pressed him on whether he was sure of one aspect of the debunked theory, that the F.B.I. gave a Democratic server to what Mr. Trump had inaccurately described as a Ukrainian-owned company.

    “That is what the word is,” Mr. Trump replied.

    Some Republicans have also focused on Hunter Biden, raising questions about whether his hiring by the Ukrainian energy company Burisma was corrupt. Burisma hired Mr. Biden while his father, former Vice President Joseph Biden Jr., a potential rival of Mr. Trump’s in the 2020 election, was leading the Obama administration’s Ukraine policy. On the July 25 call, Mr. Trump also demanded Mr. Zelensky investigate Burisma and Hunter Biden.

    Moscow has long used its intelligence agencies and propaganda machine to muddy the waters of public debate, casting doubts over established facts. In her testimony, Dr. Hill noted Russia’s pattern of trying to blame other countries for its own actions, like the attempted poisoning last year of a former Russian intelligence officer or the downing of a passenger jet over Ukraine in 2014. Moscow’s goal is to cast doubt on established facts, said current and former officials.

    “The strategy is simply to create the impression that it is not really possible to know who was really behind it,” said Laura Rosenberger, the director of the Alliance for Securing Democracy, which tracks Russian disinformation efforts.

    Although American intelligence agencies have made no formal classified assessment about the Russian disinformation campaign against Ukraine, officials at several of the agencies have broadly agreed for some time that Russian intelligence services have embraced tactics to shift responsibility for the 2016 interference campaign away from themselves, officials said.

    Russia has relentlessly tried to deflect attention since the allegations of its interference campaign in the 2016 election first surfaced, one official said.

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    Mr. Putin began publicly pushing false theories of Ukrainian interference in the early months of 2017 to deflect responsibility from Russia, said Senator Angus King, independent of Maine and a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, who declined to answer questions about the briefing.

    “These people are pros at this,” said Mr. King, who caucuses with the Democrats. “The Soviet Union used disinformation for 70 years. This is nothing new. Vladimir Putin is a former K.G.B. agent. He is trained in deception. This is his stock and trade and he is doing it well.”

    During a news conference in February 2017, Mr. Putin accused the Ukrainian government of supporting Hillary Clinton during the previous American election and funding her candidacy with friendly oligarchs.

    It is not clear when American intelligence agencies learned about Moscow’s campaign or when precisely it began.


    Image
    Mr. Trump asked President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine to investigate claims of Ukrainian interference in the 2016 election.
    Mr. Trump asked President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine to investigate claims of Ukrainian interference in the 2016 election.Credit...Pete Marovich for The New York Times
    Russian intelligence officers aimed part of their operation at prompting the Ukrainian authorities to investigate the allegations that people in Ukraine tried to tamper with the 2016 American election and to shut down inquiries into corruption by pro-Russian politicians in Ukraine, according to a former official.

    One target was the leak of a secret ledger disclosed by a Ukrainian law enforcement agency that appeared to show that Paul Manafort, Mr. Trump’s onetime campaign chairman, had taken illicit payments from Ukrainian politicians who were close to Moscow. He was forced to step down from the Trump campaign after the ledger became public in August 2016, and the Russians have since been eager to cast doubt on its authenticity, the former official said.

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    Intelligence officials believe that one of the people the Kremlin relied on to spread disinformation about Ukrainian interference was Oleg V. Deripaska, a Russian oligarch who had ties to Mr. Manafort. After his ouster from the campaign, Mr. Manafort told his former deputy later in 2016 that Ukrainians, not Russians, stole Democratic emails. Mr. Deripaska has broadly denied any role in election meddling.

    “There is a long history of Russians putting out fake information,” said Marc Polymeropoulos, a former senior C.I.A. official. “Now they are trying to put out theories that they think are damaging to the United States.”

    Correction: Nov. 22, 2019
    An earlier version of this article misstated the organization where Laura Rosenberger is the director. It is the Alliance for Securing Democracy, not the Alliance for Defending Democracy.
    did not read

     
    Comments
      
      Salty_Aus: Obviously
      
      Tellafriend: me neither
    Quote Originally Posted by bottomset_69 View Post
    Johnny Manziel will be the 1st pick in the draft. I truly believe not only will Johnny Manziel be rookie of the year, quite possibly he will be MVP as his style will shock defensive coordinators. Manziel may only be 6 feet tall, but he has size 15 feet. And he has HUGE hands. I know some NFL scouts so I know what I am talking about.



  17. #37697
    Quote Originally Posted by Sloppy Joe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Current top story on CNN.com:

    "Why Republicans Fall Back on Conspiracy Theories: In the age of Trump, facts are less important than clinging to a disproven conspiracy theory that keeps the President happy"

    That's the actual headline.

    The writer of this would have flunked Journalism 101 with hyper-biased headlines like that.

    CNN really has become the fake news which Trump accused them of being 3-4 years ago. They actually morphed into a caricature of his accusation. Amazing.
    Did you watch the hearings?

    GOP leaders are babbling about Crowdstrike, openly lying about procedure, smearing war heroes and lifelong diplomats etc.

    Crowdstrike was hired by the DNC who were caught in the emails being giant scamming pos but yet its a conspiracy theory they would keep lying for their own gain?

  18. #37698
    I was also told that borat gave a tour de force where he said thinking ppl like druff being a cheap jew would be a conspiracy theory

  19. #37699
    Nova Scotia's REAL #1 Webcam DJ sonatine's Avatar
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    "Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

    "America is not so much a nightmare as a non-dream. The American non-dream is precisely a move to wipe the dream out of existence. The dream is a spontaneous happening and therefore dangerous to a control system set up by the non-dreamers." -- William S. Burroughs



    http://www.lolstockaments.com/

  20. #37700
    Quote Originally Posted by sonatine View Post
    speaking of which

    https://twitter.com/#!/x/status/1197607345414660098

    couple of things. one, she is a serious person. there are so few serious people in this administration, because serious people don't tolerate fools or criminals.

    secondly, juuuuuust fuckin lol at nunes' face as that daily beast article gets quoted into the record.

    just ... savor that shit.

    CNN: Lev Parnas Willing to Tell Congress Nunes Spoke With Fmr Ukrainian Official to Get Dirt on Biden

    https://www.mediaite.com/news/cnn-le...dirt-on-biden/

    uhoh

     
    Comments
      
      MumblesBadly: Wondering if Druff is going to call this “fake news”.

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