3 Attachment(s)
Betcoin.ag - Scams, Scandals, and Shadiness Galore
Im making this post because I'm trying to get word out about the behavior of Betcoin.ag support.
For those who don't know, Betcoin.ag offers casino games, sports betting and poker that only accepts Bitcoin and Litecoin. They have bitcoin only cash small stakes tourneys in addition to being being connected to WPN. (If you're playing a mtt on ACR or Blackchip - you might have a Betcoin player at your table.)
They also have a forum and main chat for players and have built a small community.
I started playing there last March and saw a lot of shady stuff going on over the next several months. Even for a bitcoin poker site.
I intend to prove that Betcoin is guilty of the following:
- Being fully aware of players being cheated by other players- instead of making victims whole they either:
A - allow the cheater to keep the funds
B - seize and keep funds for themselves
C - Use the funds for a promotion (clearly same as B imo)
- Not putting reasonable effort into protecting their players from being cheating both in game and in the community.
- Being fully aware of past issues with their software which resulted in players either losing funds they shouldn't or not receiving funds they were entitled to and not compensating ALL players appropriately. (if all players suffer from same issue, all players should be compensated equally, regardless of whether all players were aware or complained about issue)
- Being fully aware of current issues with their software which could potentially cause players to lose money and allowing them to continue.
- Lying to players in their live player chat and moderating their forums inconsistently and unethically without explanation.
- Blatantly lying on other forums.
- Encouraging players to discredit those who criticize without consideration as to whether or not the criticism was valid.
I'm going to try and break this down into a list of facts which I can prove and keep my opinions to a minimum.
The "No Collusion Freeroll"
Last February (a few weeks before I even joined the site) Betcoin held a 10BTC freeroll. They claimed it was inspired by catching a few colluders who had been cheating in their cash games, and they wanted to show that Betcoin had 0 tolerence for collusion, they called it the "No Collusion Freeroll" and even made the password "No Collusion" I'll be taking quotes from their official announcement and responses found here: https://www.betcoin.ag/collusion-sof...-betcoin-poker
Quote:
We have been following the play of two players in our cash games for nearly 10 days, studying hundreds of hands and receiving feedback from over 20 players that have played against them. Our findings are very clear that two players are colluding, soft playing and cheating other players. We will always protect the integrity of our poker room and have the best possible environment for our players. Their accounts have been banned and even though neither player has ever made a deposit we are allowing them to keep a small portion of the funds.
The remainder and majority of the funds will be dispersed to players that were cheated and used to host a 10 btc freeroll next Sunday February 15, 2015 to make the message clear that collusion, soft play, and cheating will not be tolerated at Betcoin Poker ever and that swift and decisive action will be taken.
If you suspect collusion, soft play or any type of cheating at anytime, please message us immediately. ZERO TOLERANCE at Betcoin Poker.
Password for the 10 BTC Anti-Collusion Freeroll is: NoCollusion
They think any money they "find" in a cheaters account belongs to them and expect players to thank them for being so generous to give some of it back. Heck they even gave the original cheaters who never even deposit some money.
Oh by the way, after giving him some of the money he had stolen they also allowed at least one of the original colluders to PLAY IN THE NO COLLUSION FREEROLL
(Betcoin Andrew is Staff)
I encourage anyone interested go read the 2 or so pages of comments. Betcoin refused to make another comment on the situation and eventually everyone just forgot about it.
Here are a couple unanswered questions from thread:
Quote:
WTF? Are you guys serious? LOL! You have said in this thread you have ZERO TOLERANCE for collusion then come up with the excuse you like to give second chances? I am also 100% sure you knew their were many multi-accounts in this freeroll.
The actual name of the freeroll 10 BTC ANTI-COLLUSION FREEROLL was a stupid idea.
1. It just proves people can collude on Betcoin.
2. People will flood your email server with accusations of colluding to get more freerolls.
Quote:
just some food for thought: 1 week after being banned, player da_killa is unbanned after "countless emails back and forth" blablabla. I report him playing again the day he is (silently) unbanned, asking what is up - he is playing on like 6-7 cashgame tables + the anti collusion freeroll (lol) that day. the very next after posting this he magically dissapears and stops playing on the site alltogether after going through all the hoops of being unbanned and instantly jumping into games once he is. so what new screenname did u give him/allow him to create ? because he surely wont stop playing 1 day after he is unbanned. this is ridiculous. please post his and drajls new screennames in here so that he doesnt have an unfair advantage at the tables (again).
Also there still hasnt been any refunds whatsoever besides unbanning the colluder after a few days. solid priorities, tyvm.
Quote:
whoa just realzed this - "After several emails with this player and banning the other accounts associated," SO BETCOIN ANDREW - WHAT WERE THE OTHER ACCOUNTS ? DRAJL AND DA_KILLA WERE NOT THE ONLY ONES AS U SAID.
i want to know who else cheated me. ill wait one more week for you to at least give us a friggin update here, then ill make this public in other forums. this is simply not acceptable how you treat your customers here. this thread is goin for almost 5 (!!!) weeks now and u silently UNBANNED the cheaters after 1 week BEFORE refunding the cheated. and now simply try to ignore this thread, not having sent refuds after 5 weeks. did you by chance operate one or two of those accounts yourself ? this is ridiculous. why u wont ban them all, name ALL the names u banned , refund the players and move on ??
Quote:
wtf betcoin. seriously. at least give us fucking update instead of ignoring this thread!
Quote:
and not responding to my ticket from almost 3 weeks ago wont make me stop bumpin this ridic thread a well. what an amazingly bad customer service u display here, mindblowing....
Quote:
bumpppppp. thank you for the great customer service betcoin, much appreciated !
(The user who posted most of those left the site 7 months ago and hasn't been back)
Betcoin allows cheaters to continue playing until they request a withdraw.
I wasn't supposed to see this, but when a staff member likes a comment of another staff member, it makes the beginning of the comment public.
I think its self explanatory (not sure if this is proof of pws not being encrypted or not)
Betcoin staff claims to conduct a thorough investigation but clearly doesn't
https://www.betcoin.ag/urgent-player...ealing-chips-0
Some players suspected a new player of some sort of strategic attack to disconnect oppopnents in middle of hand. Personally I think its entirely possible there was no cheating, but that doesn't matter now.
Betcoin Andrews response:
Everyone directly effected by this, please provide feedback if you shared your skype information with anyone. We are still researching this issue in detail and have consulted other websites as well who have
Quote:
shared they have experienced this problem.
The common response has been to advise.
NEVER accept unknown contacts on Skype. If someone has you on Skype they can get your IP address, and with your IP they can DDOS you and cause a disconnect.
Starting to become a common poker con it seems.
This is not the end of our review and we will keep you posted.
Nearly a week goes by and I notice someone makes a post asking for an update get deleted quickly. (players do not have the ability to delete their own posts - i think )
I wait a day, and then also making a post - asking if the guy was cheating or not. (I had been involved in a very large pot with player, and got disconnected costing me a lot but honestly was not convinced either way if it was )
The other player responded that support had:
Quote:
threw me 10 extra chips and a status upgrade and told him politely to stfu
When asked for a time frame on when they would make a decision on the cheating:
Quote:
oh well, gonna be a while and we'll let you know
I have a screen shot of these posts, they were deleted very quickly but if you go through the thread I posted originally you'll see they are gone
The next day support made its final statement on the matter:
Quote:
Our research has indicated that this was an issue that many poker rooms have faced in the past. We have integrated some defense mechanisms and are continuing to add more to this. We are happy to report to date it has not occurred again. Please correct us if we are wrong and keep the constructive posts coming on this matter. Individuals effected please submit or bump your original tickets for review.
We all want instant gratification, but things take time, research, preparation programming and hard work. There often isn't an update everyday but overtime there is progress and we will always get things right. We thank you for your support.
They ended up refunding me for the 1 hand I had a screen shot of and refused to answer any further questions ( like how much did you confiscate? Are you refunding players who may not of seen thread? )
Betcoins reaction to player DoS attack/Extortion Attempt
(I am victim in this example and I am NOT claiming it's anyones responsibility but my own to secure my IP. The reason I'm including this is because I think Betcoins response was irresponsible and likely encouraged him to do it again to someone else)
On Sunday July 22 I was playing was several tournaments on Betcoin when another Betcoin user (worldpeace) took out my internet for nearly an hour by having a friend dos my ip through the skype exploit. I was able to reconnect briefly a few times, during which he tried to extort $20 from me (i ignored or refused each time)
I opened a ticket and provided screen shots of the extortion attempts and also started a thread to warn other players and secure their skype connection.
I made it clear I wasn't looking for compensation from Betcoin as it wasn't their job to make sure my IP was secure. But I did expect the user to be banned.
I also checked his Sharkscope and noticed he had won a ridiculously high number of HUSNGs recently, including 8 or 9 in a row that day. (HUSNG would be easiest way to exploit another player by taking out their internet during match)
Betcoins Response:
WorldPeace was never banned. He actually won the Betcoin Daily Coin tournament that night as well as the lastlonger and was congratulated by Staff member/"Mod" plo8monster.
I can't copy the entire ticket since I'm currently banned, but I do have a screen shot of the only response I received from Betcoin which asked me if he apologized. You can read my response, I think I bumped the ticket a couple more times and eventually gave up.
https://i.gyazo.com/d8bbc629835a8fb4...682d8be5a4.png
He did apologize in the thread I made:
worldpeace: oh yeah i want to apologise3 months 4 weeks ago
oh yeah i want to apologise for my actions and im sorry
If interested you can find more specific details of the actual attack here: https://www.betcoin.ag/worldpeace-sc...-extort-me-dos
In case it ends up being deleted, screenshots of extortion attempts and copy of skype logs:
Quote
This message has been removed.
[7/16/2015 7:06:13 PM] *** leon would like to add you on Skype
Hi twitchyseal, I'd like to add you as a contact. ***
[7/16/2015 7:09:21 PM] *** twitchyseal has shared contact details with leon. ***
[7/16/2015 7:09:23 PM] twitchyseal: hi
[7/16/2015 7:09:35 PM] leon: I was ddosing u for 5mins
[7/16/2015 7:09:37 PM] twitchyseal: what was that
[7/16/2015 7:09:37 PM] leon: i can ddose u
[7/16/2015 7:09:48 PM] twitchyseal: why
[7/16/2015 7:09:57 PM] twitchyseal: so I lose satty
[7/16/2015 7:10:04 PM] leon: earlier i sent u 5mins dc
[7/16/2015 7:10:11 PM] leon: booting ur router
[7/16/2015 7:10:16 PM] leon: next time will be longer
[7/16/2015 7:10:25 PM] twitchyseal: why
[7/16/2015 7:10:30 PM] leon: cause im mad
[7/16/2015 7:10:33 PM] leon: u knock me out
[7/16/2015 7:10:38 PM] leon: of tourney yesterday
[7/16/2015 7:10:42 PM] leon: i demand a fucking refund
[7/16/2015 7:10:44 PM] leon: and i will stop
[7/16/2015 7:11:34 PM] *** twitchyseal blocked leon ***
http://snag.gy/mxnzp.jpg
http://snag.gy/mxnzp.jpg
http://snag.gy/9448g.jpg
Ok going to get a bit lazy now and just link some post I've already made.
Betcoin Trolling Me:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?to...74#msg12968074
Betcoin Underpaying VIP Status Points/Rakeback - pretends to care for a bit then ignores me
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?to...39#msg13053839
Even after Betcoin has disabled my account and Banned my IP - I can still log into poker client and register for tournaments
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?to...58#msg13041658
Betcoin collects over 14 BTC from a BBJP that doesn't exist, denys collecting them, claims to use them for another freeroll then claims they weren't used for the freeroll and pretends BBJP existed all along and refuses to discuss further:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?to...00#msg13028300
Betcoin Rep on BitcoinTalk blatantly lies (and I call them out) about Previous Freeroll issues:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?to...61#msg13028361
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?to...78#msg13028378
Last night Betcoin contacted me for the first time on BitcoinTalk.org I'm not sure why exactly, interested in what others think.
They told me the following:
- Betcoin would much rather have me back in the community.
- The community is a lot smoother now that I am gone which is allowing them to fix things.
- I am always welcome back (im still banned)
- Because of me, Bitcoin Talk referalls have never been higher, I should be paid for helping them grow!
- They encourage me to ask more questions, because my questions are important. (they haven't answered any)
- I’m definitely bringing in new players, they appreciate it.
- This has been a very good experience for the forum rep.
(Normally I would never share a pm without permission - I think this is an acceptable time to make an exception)
Betcoin.ag
Quote:
We would actually much rather have you back in the community. Our staff is working on much of the great feedback you and all of our players have provided. I am the forum rep and as advised by owners, staff etc. going back and forth in a forum is never productive, but staying on the first page in the thread is very beneficial for Betcoin as the referrals from BitcoinTalk have never been higher. We will continue to work hard to make everything as perfect as possible at Betcoin and you will always be welcome back.
My Response
Quote:
"We would actually much rather have you back in the community"
Much rather than what?
You disable my account ban my ip without explanation then tell me you'd rather I wasn't banned?
Why did you ban me in the first place? If you'd rather I wasn't banned why not simply un ban me?
I think it's because you know I won't stop asking questions that you don't want to answer.
Why did Betcoin ignore me for the weeks leading up to my first post about this issue here?
Betcoin.ag
Quote:
Much rather than ban you. We don't want to ban anybody.
Even you stated in an earlier message you can see why you have been banned.
You can ask as many questions as you want and we encourage it. Notice we have never asked you once to stop posting. As the forum rep, I have never been busier!
Betcoin is working on many things brought up from all of our great players and will get to everything in time.
Again, we appreciate your vigor and posts. You should be earning from the traffic you are sending over.
My Response
Quote:
You've already banned me.
If you would rather I weren't banned, you would unban me. Please stop saying things that conflict with the actions of Betcoin.
I can ask as many questions as I want only because you can't stop stop me.
If you could, you would.
You've proven that by deleting the same questions when I asked them on your forum and eventually banning me so I couldn't ask them in chat.
I still have not received answers to many questions even months after asking them.
Acting as if I am helping you by exposing your lies and unethical practices is just childish and I can't see how anyone would believe you would ban me from your site for doing something that you were glad I was doing.
Betcoin.ag
Quote:
Yes, you have been banned.
Yes, the community is a lot smoother and we can focus on fixing remaining issues and adding future additions.
We would not stop you, because this is the proper forum for it. We would encourage you as you ask important questions. We are working on a wide variety of things right now from all of our members including you but asking multiple times a day just is not necessary.
You are definitely helping bring in new users and we appreciate it.
Again, I am just the forum rep and this has also been a good experience for me as well.
I've got plenty more to share like privately paying players to defend them, paying players to make posts about how much they love them etc. kind of sick of typing and thinking about this at the moment though, will add more later. Any feedback welcome, just please read what I said before making opinion.
