IS SEALS WITH CLUBS DONKDOWN??? (Update: Micon charged with a felony in Nevada)

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

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Originally Posted by Daredevil

Maybe Micon heard the show last night and realized continuing to run the site was a:

:baddecision

"All activity on the sealswithclubs.eu domain will cease on May 5th, 2015. After this date it will not be possible to retrieve your balances, connect an email address to an account, or reset your password, Please request your cashouts immediately and pass along this notice to others if you know any former players."

The note explains also that once the cash-out system will be brought down, "there will no longer be any support for, or activity on, the sealswithclubs.eu domain."

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Wrong site.

They are just shutting down the old Seals for good for cashouts.

SWCPOKER is still running.

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Ah yes, you're right. Though why wait until now?

Most of the posts on that reddit thread should be made illegal on the grounds of offensive stupidity.

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Originally Posted by TheXFactor

Here's the Criminal Complaint that was filed by the State of Nevada against Bryan Micon.

http://ag.nv.gov/uploadedFiles/agnvg...aint_Micon.pdf

Micon is only being charged with 1 count of Operating an Unlicensed Interactive Gaming System.

The acts alleged occurred between March 1st 2014 to February 9th 2015.

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This is very short and doesn't say much.

Presumably there will be more later.

How much will you guys pay me to troll the reddit thread into an anti-vax frenzy?

Much like Joe Sebok and dozens and dozens of well-believing morons in the poker world over the years, Micon fully believed in a thing almost entirely based upon it being in his very best financial interests for that thing to be true. He discarded rational thoughts on the subject, and conducted himself in such a way that only someone who really believed what he claims to believe would have acted.

Micon's success depended on a few certain things being true, so he did and does still believe those things to be true. Much like many deeply religious people, opposition to his stance somehow only managed/manages to reinforce his own beliefs.

It was interesting to read the Chenoff article and note how his battles are not entirely won in the courtroom on merit.

Chenoff & his firm are old school Vegas and have relationships with the powers that be. His value may largely be his ability to work behind the scenes.

Loved Drexel's story regarding "Steve The Body Guard" and his $50k fix it.

The whole surrender & quick plea is not how Chenoff will play this. Far too weak and probably would be a professional humiliation for him.

Trying to compare sentences given for different notorious convictions is giving me a headache. Pretty sure not too many people here are applying this silly logic but I keep reading it.

That is not how things work. Especially with juries. If juries always meted out consistent and logical decisions & sentences no one would play the game. That's what keeps our justice system fun & players coming back.

A simple jury fix too old school?

"micon attempted to buy lock poker and make all players whole"

http://pokerfuse.com/news/industry/2...e-all-players/

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Hi Jennifer, I’m interested in buying the Lock Poker brand and all its software assets. You can give me a quick google and see that I started SealsWithClubs.eu in 2011 and amassed a considerable wealth with the increase in Bitcoin price. I plan to relaunch the brand and make all players whole. I consider Lock Poker like Chrysler of the early 90’s. It’s a strong brand that needs a turn-around.

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i bet his skype logs are a gold mine of luls

druff, you HAVE to get a copy. i guess pokerfuse did

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sanlmar

It was interesting to read the Chenoff article and note how his battles are not entirely won in the courtroom on merit.

Chenoff & his firm are old school Vegas and have relationships with the powers that be. His value may largely be his ability to work behind the scenes.

Loved Drexel's story regarding "Steve The Body Guard" and his $50k fix it.

The whole surrender & quick plea is not how Chenoff will play this. Far too weak and probably would be a professional humiliation for him.

Trying to compare sentences given for different notorious convictions is giving me a headache. Pretty sure not too many people here are applying this silly logic but I keep reading it.

That is not how things work. Especially with juries. If juries always meted out consistent and logical decisions & sentences no one would play the game. That's what keeps our justice system fun & players coming back.

A simple jury fix too old school?

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I'd say there's about a 5% chance that this case goes to a jury.

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Originally Posted by FPS_Russia

I think Micon's best bet MAY be to stay on the run if he's making ok money at SWC2 and he can find a reasonably safe place. At least he has a chance of being free and achieving his dreams.
He should maybe try to negotiate a plea before returning, is that even possible?

If you guys were Micon right now what would you do?



If he come's to the USA, between lawyers and fines he's gonna owe forever. The prosecutors seem to be setting a precedent with Micon's case, not good. Could be a semi bluff tho.

They're gonna make his bail an outrageous amount for sure.
His wife will likely move on if he serves time. His daughter will be humiliated. His so called friends will forget all about him.
He will step out of the pen in how ever many years, broke, abandoned, owe fines and maybe even back child support and be a convicted felon. Feds may also bring charges.


Extended stay at the county jail that serves Las Vegas Metro, fuck that!
Druff/Pooh have the deeds to your houses on stand by for bail, don't worry, you'll get it back.

You two should pool funds, see if Ray Bitar's lawyer is available.
Seems like Micon hired some kooky lawyer, maybe not tho.

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bro, congrats. you're pfa's most retarded poster and it isn't close. i hope you are younger than 16 for your own good.

bail amount would be 10 grand probably at most, especially if he turns himself in.

worst he could get is 10 years and 50k fine. the fine is key. its so low that i think there is no way he would get anywhere near 10 years. if highest fine was 500k then it would be possible.

his wife isn't leaving him. his daughter is two or three so i doubt she's very humiliated.

he turns himself in. gets a couple years in a detention center at worst. pays a fine, does probation, gets a job and goes on with his life.

so he becomes a working stiff like the rest of us tards. big fucking deal. i'm sure he could find work that he enjoys. who knows, maybe his old lady can work too.

i don't think there's any chance he doesn't turn himself if. not unless he doesn't value his wife and kid.

time to grow up big boy

Jurys dont determine the outcome of the penalty phase, do they? They only assess guilty/not guilty, and there is literally no chance at all Micon fades a guilty plea in a trial.

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Originally Posted by FPS_Russia

Did the founders of the original SWC and Micon's later business partner actually keep his true identity hidden from Micon?

Any chance Micon is founder and sole owner from day one and that was the cover story?

If they really kept their identity hidden from Micon, but not only allowed him maybe even cheerleaded him into advertising and being the public face of SWC and then just slunked away with a majority of the profits while Micon's taking the fall seems fucked up.

It's like they were 95% sure Micon/SWC would get busted but instead of attempting to stop Micon's advertising and lose profit they decided to cheer him over the cliff and disappear,

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Good points above.

Zero chance Micon was the founder of Seals. Brandon was still very close to Micon when he got involved with that, and heard a lot as it got going.

I was surprised to find out that these guys kept their identities hidden from Micon. Not 100% sure I believe that story, but it's possible. Guess we will find out.

It is very possible that they gave him such a large piece because he was willing to be the guy who would put himself out there as the face of the site. Micon brought nothing to the table from a technical standpoint, and little from a managerial one. His value was being a known, accessible guy who was promoting the site as his, which made the place a lot more appealing than if it were run by shady unknowns who could sneak off into the shadows at any point with your BTC.

People trusted Seals because Micon had been around for so long and was a face they could put to the operation.

So Micon was gifted a large portion of Seals' revenue in return for all of that, with the one obvious downside being high exposure to criminal prosecution.

Basically, they needed someone careless enough to stick his neck out there to promote the thing, and they found him.

im surprised they didnt include interstate wire fraud & money laundering charges, the more i think about it.

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Originally Posted by sonatine

Jurys dont determine the outcome of the penalty phase, do they? They only assess guilty/not guilty, and there is literally no chance at all Micon fades a guilty plea in a trial.

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Oh, Tsarnaev will be pleased to learn this.

Admittedly, it depends. But you want to bet what Tsarnaev decision life or death penalty will be? Flip a coin & welcome to the crap game of american justice.

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Originally Posted by Pooh

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Originally Posted by FPS_Russia

I think Micon's best bet MAY be to stay on the run if he's making ok money at SWC2 and he can find a reasonably safe place. At least he has a chance of being free and achieving his dreams.
He should maybe try to negotiate a plea before returning, is that even possible?

If you guys were Micon right now what would you do?



If he come's to the USA, between lawyers and fines he's gonna owe forever. The prosecutors seem to be setting a precedent with Micon's case, not good. Could be a semi bluff tho.

They're gonna make his bail an outrageous amount for sure.
His wife will likely move on if he serves time. His daughter will be humiliated. His so called friends will forget all about him.
He will step out of the pen in how ever many years, broke, abandoned, owe fines and maybe even back child support and be a convicted felon. Feds may also bring charges.


Extended stay at the county jail that serves Las Vegas Metro, fuck that!
Druff/Pooh have the deeds to your houses on stand by for bail, don't worry, you'll get it back.

You two should pool funds, see if Ray Bitar's lawyer is available.
Seems like Micon hired some kooky lawyer, maybe not tho.

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bro, congrats. you're pfa's most retarded poster and it isn't close. i hope you are younger than 16 for your own good.

bail amount would be 10 grand probably at most, especially if he turns himself in.

worst he could get is 10 years and 50k fine. the fine is key. its so low that i think there is no way he would get anywhere near 10 years. if highest fine was 500k then it would be possible.

his wife isn't leaving him. his daughter is two or three so i doubt she's very humiliated.

he turns himself in. gets a couple years in a detention center at worst. pays a fine, does probation, gets a job and goes on with his life.

so he becomes a working stiff like the rest of us tards. big fucking deal. i'm sure he could find work that he enjoys. who knows, maybe his old lady can work too.

i don't think there's any chance he doesn't turn himself if. not unless he doesn't value his wife and kid.

time to grow up big boy

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Poop sitting in some lame ass gated community for old folks with 24/7 security guards and ten other layers of security just dismissed 10 years in prison like it's some minor inconvenience. Bet he still uses a night light and calls security 10 times a month because he heard a noise, save it poop and stay on topic.

Of course he also had to brag about how easy he could pay a 50k fine too.

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Originally Posted by FPS_Russia

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Originally Posted by Pooh

bro, congrats. you're pfa's most retarded poster and it isn't close. i hope you are younger than 16 for your own good.

bail amount would be 10 grand probably at most, especially if he turns himself in.

worst he could get is 10 years and 50k fine. the fine is key. its so low that i think there is no way he would get anywhere near 10 years. if highest fine was 500k then it would be possible.

his wife isn't leaving him. his daughter is two or three so i doubt she's very humiliated.

he turns himself in. gets a couple years in a detention center at worst. pays a fine, does probation, gets a job and goes on with his life.

so he becomes a working stiff like the rest of us tards. big fucking deal. i'm sure he could find work that he enjoys. who knows, maybe his old lady can work too.

i don't think there's any chance he doesn't turn himself if. not unless he doesn't value his wife and kid.

time to grow up big boy

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Poop sitting in some lame ass gated community for old folks with 24/7 security guards and ten other layers of security just dismissed 10 years in prison like it's some minor inconvenience. Bet he still uses a night light and calls security 10 times a month because he heard a noise, save it poop.

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shit for brains. the point was he won't get any where near 10 years. unless they have to come get him. then he's fucked.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Blah blah the law is the law so if you blatantly break it you get in trouble blah

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Druff - Repost that mouthful on 2+2 and let me know how it goes for you. All those "normally smart" people clearly need to be enlightened.

Given that you still don't get it, I'm starting to think you never will. This has nothing to do with "the law".

Everyone knows that online poker shouldn't be illegal. So it's not that hard to understand why people that like playing online poker are upset they lost another one of their dwindling options by virtue of some big interest bullshit, especially when others committed real crimes on a scale thousands of times worse and nothing happened to them, why is that?

We can agree that Micon was at least partly responsible (even as marketing guy) for running or being involved with an unlicensed site from a highly flawed location.

Seriously though, who gives fuck? Seals didn't steal/scam/cheat anybody. You play and bet sports on other unlicensed sites all the time. Why is that?

Based on the lack of options for USA players, Micon was able to generate a few hundred nerds willing to play for funny money just so they could cash out quickly and have a decent community to play cards.

He went about it wrong obviously but the whole "he made money when I could of" or "omg unlicensed rogue operator" stuff is just retarded.

The lawmakers made a horrendously dumb law for bullshit reasons. While I don't advocate breaking laws and thumbing your nose at enforcement, jail is by no means anywhere near the proper punishment for a guy like Micon.

These "laws" you have such a boner for... are they being enforced uniformly? I have a tee time tomorrow at 2 with Lederer if you're free?

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Originally Posted by WillieMcFML

"micon attempted to buy lock poker and make all players whole"

http://pokerfuse.com/news/industry/2...e-all-players/

Quote:

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Hi Jennifer, I’m interested in buying the Lock Poker brand and all its software assets. You can give me a quick google and see that I started SealsWithClubs.eu in 2011 and amassed a considerable wealth with the increase in Bitcoin price. I plan to relaunch the brand and make all players whole. I consider Lock Poker like Chrysler of the early 90’s. It’s a strong brand that needs a turn-around.

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i bet his skype logs are a gold mine of luls

druff, you HAVE to get a copy. i guess pokerfuse did

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I would love to have what Pokerfuse has. Any idea the specific manner in which I/we can go about this? I am not a journalist so I don't know about these processes.

With that said, I doubt pokerfuse has his Skype logs. I think they are going off specific testimony about relevant parts of them, such as his pitch to buy Lock Poker (which is pretty funny).

Presumably this is relevant to Micon's case because he claims in the chat that he "started SealsWithClubs.eu in 2011", and this can be used to counter any defense that he was just an employee of the site.

I bet they have like 100+ examples like this that they can lay out in court if Micon's defense team tries to go that way.

The funny thing is that Micon likely overstated his ownership, not understated it as he probably should have. He was so proud of being "Chairman" of Seals and the unending adulation that went with it from bitcoin/online poker fanboys, that he probably bragged about things that weren't completely true. And now those things he bragged about are being used to prosecute him.

Whoooooooooooops.

Actually, I think I just wrote a great defense position for him to use. His claims of owning Seals were just his own hubris, and not actual fact.

Finklestein will send you the bill for this, Micon.

can someone photoshop the Better Call Saul Cinnebon footage with Micon's head?

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

"druff won't ever need viagra after this"

:lol2

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you're welcome

:to

i bet there was enough porn on his computer to even make OSA blush.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Shizzmoney, I actually agree with most of your post.

I do think you are characterizing me in a way as a corporate/government/law-and-order apologist, and I am anything but that.

I was the first person to call out the "we got a complaint from Belgium" story as BS. Not tha the Belgian complaint was necessarily a lie, but LOL @ them starting an investigation (and taking 18 months to serve a search warrant) because some anonymous Belgian e-mailed them about Seals.

I said that clearly some powerful interest -- most likely Caesars or Stations (Ultimate Poker) -- complained about Seals, and demanded action, especially given Micon being the lowest of low hanging fruits to bust right there in Vegas.

So of course they cover up who was really behind the complaint which made them took action, probably to protect future campaign donations, and instead blame the whole thing on a Belgian guy.

L O FUCKING L.

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Agreed, and Daredevil I think hit it right on the head when he mentioned that he thought Ultimate Poker was the "snitch".

The Fertittas have had a history of complaining to government when their shit fails; like for example they hosted a hearing about internet piracy cutting into their business (and therefore, they claim, the fighters' "potential earn", which is LOL b/c UFC fighters get screwed on pay for the most part). They also have complained about taxes and union wages affecting their ability to run a business; the same business that is around 2 billion in debt last I checked (it was at 3, but they have de-levered like most casinos since 2007).

The ironic thing is that I think internet piracy has CONTRIBUTED to the success of the UFC (and in a sense, Fight Pass is an emulation of what torrent sites were doing with their content). A lot like internet poker (where people can have the ability, unlike in live card rooms, to play for pennies and run it up), people who couldn't afford PPVs but decent internet could actually watch the fights.

Please let the complaint from Belgium be from Daniel Negreanu. That definitely didn't happen but I'm pretending it did because the thought it might of, is fucking hysterical.

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Originally Posted by Headshot

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Blah blah the law is the law so if you blatantly break it you get in trouble blah

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Druff - Repost that mouthful on 2+2 and let me know how it goes for you. All those "normally smart" people clearly need to be enlightened.

Given that you still don't get it, I'm starting to think you never will. This has nothing to do with "the law".

Everyone knows that online poker shouldn't be illegal. So it's not that hard to understand why people that like playing online poker are upset they lost another one of their dwindling options by virtue of some big interest bullshit, especially when others committed real crimes on a scale thousands of times worse and nothing happened to them, why is that?

We can agree that Micon was at least partly responsible (even as marketing guy) for running or being involved with an unlicensed site from a highly flawed location.

Seriously though, who gives fuck? Seals didn't steal/scam/cheat anybody. You play and bet sports on other unlicensed sites all the time. Why is that?

Based on the lack of options for USA players, Micon was able to generate a few hundred nerds willing to play for funny money just so they could cash out quickly and have a decent community to play cards.

He went about it wrong obviously but the whole "he made money when I could of" or "omg unlicensed rogue operator" stuff is just retarded.

The lawmakers made a horrendously dumb law for bullshit reasons. While I don't advocate breaking laws and thumbing your nose at enforcement, jail is by no means anywhere near the proper punishment for a guy like Micon.

These "laws" you have such a boner for... are they being enforced uniformly? I have a tee time tomorrow at 2 with Lederer if you're free?

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Why is "he made money when everyone else otherwise could if they were also willing to break the law" a retarded argument?

It's absolutely true.

You are punishing everyone who followed the laws/regulations if you knowingly allow those breaking the laws to profit by doing so.

That's why it's absolutely idiotic to claim that Micon should have gone untouched by authorities because "poker should be legal".

Okay, so if we say that online poker should be legal, and even if we say that anyone should be able to run unregulated online gaming sites without consequence, why the fuck does Micon deserve a head start to make money from it when everyone else is waiting for the law to be changed.

It's a basic rule of society. Except in cases of extreme, life-changing injustice, you can't just pick and choose laws which you find inconvenient, break them, and then whine about persecution when you are arrested and prosecuted for it.

If you want to take a chance and offer illegal online poker to US residents (and get personally enriched in return), fine. I have no problem with that, just as I have no problem with sites like Bovada taking that same chance. However, it's retarded to whine about being persecuted when you get caught.

The bottom line is that Micon should not be let off simply because we don't agree with current online poker laws. He used those laws to profit big, and now he has to accept the negative consequences of those same laws.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

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Originally Posted by Headshot

Druff - Repost that mouthful on 2+2 and let me know how it goes for you. All those "normally smart" people clearly need to be enlightened.

Given that you still don't get it, I'm starting to think you never will. This has nothing to do with "the law".

Everyone knows that online poker shouldn't be illegal. So it's not that hard to understand why people that like playing online poker are upset they lost another one of their dwindling options by virtue of some big interest bullshit, especially when others committed real crimes on a scale thousands of times worse and nothing happened to them, why is that?

We can agree that Micon was at least partly responsible (even as marketing guy) for running or being involved with an unlicensed site from a highly flawed location.

Seriously though, who gives fuck? Seals didn't steal/scam/cheat anybody. You play and bet sports on other unlicensed sites all the time. Why is that?

Based on the lack of options for USA players, Micon was able to generate a few hundred nerds willing to play for funny money just so they could cash out quickly and have a decent community to play cards.

He went about it wrong obviously but the whole "he made money when I could of" or "omg unlicensed rogue operator" stuff is just retarded.

The lawmakers made a horrendously dumb law for bullshit reasons. While I don't advocate breaking laws and thumbing your nose at enforcement, jail is by no means anywhere near the proper punishment for a guy like Micon.

These "laws" you have such a boner for... are they being enforced uniformly? I have a tee time tomorrow at 2 with Lederer if you're free?

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Why is "he made money when everyone else otherwise could if they were also willing to break the law" a retarded argument?

It's absolutely true.

You are punishing everyone who followed the laws/regulations if you knowingly allow those breaking the laws to profit by doing so.

That's why it's absolutely idiotic to claim that Micon should have gone untouched by authorities because "poker should be legal".

Okay, so if we say that online poker should be legal, and even if we say that anyone should be able to run unregulated online gaming sites without consequence, why the fuck does Micon deserve a head start to make money from it when everyone else is waiting for the law to be changed.

It's a basic rule of society. Except in cases of extreme, life-changing injustice, you can't just pick and choose laws which you find inconvenient, break them, and then whine about persecution when you are arrested and prosecuted for it.

If you want to take a chance and offer illegal online poker to US residents (and get personally enriched in return), fine. I have no problem with that, just as I have no problem with sites like Bovada taking that same chance. However, it's retarded to whine about being persecuted when you get caught.

The bottom line is that Micon should not be let off simply because we don't agree with current online poker laws. He used those laws to profit big, and now he has to accept the negative consequences of those same laws.

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It amazes me how people can't understand this.

The point is that others in the same industry broke the "law" a thousand times worse and nothing happened to them. They are not enforced uniformly.

The "law" in this case is actually a complete joke, as evidenced by the lack of true punishment for all the actual perilous figures in online poker history. Granted it excites you to see your former buddy in trouble but your bias is so strong that you haven't thought this one out clearly imo.

You're basically championing someone getting in trouble for knowingly breaking the law, despite the fact that the law itself is total bullshit and was created for bullshit reasons, not to protect anyone or do any actual good.

Not all laws are good laws, which of course does not support breaking them but...mindless laws should in no way be praised when they are enforced.

You know you've made it big when you google your name and the first five stories are in a different language.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...+micon&tbm=nws

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Originally Posted by Headshot

The point is that others in the same industry broke the "law" a thousand times worse and nothing happened to them. They are not enforced uniformly.

The "law" in this case is actually a complete joke, as evidenced by the lack of true punishment for all the actual perilous figures in online poker history. Granted it excites you to see your former buddy in trouble but your bias is so strong that you haven't thought this one out clearly imo.

You're basically championing someone getting in trouble for knowingly breaking the law, despite the fact that the law itself is total bullshit and was created for bullshit reasons, not to protect anyone or do any actual good.

Not all laws are good laws, which of course does not support breaking them but...mindless laws should in no way be praised when they are enforced.

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I may have spoke too soon about fps_russia.....

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

You are punishing everyone who followed the laws/regulations if you knowingly allow those breaking the laws to profit by doing so.

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Place any bets on the Dodgers game tonight with Bovada?

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

It's a basic rule of society. Except in cases of extreme, life-changing injustice, you can't just pick and choose laws which you find inconvenient, break them,

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.
regardless of the shenanigans & devious methods (Safe Ports Bill) used by game playing legislators. Pledge Allegiance. I will defy stupid laws when I see fit.

You have elected a tone and a line of commentary with this story that is unimaginative, straight-laced and frankly dull. I can't help but feel personal feelings have limited your creative thinking & range. But that's just me.

I will relisten to Drexel's reaction to the story during the last radio show to try to pinpoint why his take resonates with me and yours does not. Just to satisfy my own curiousity. I suggest you relisten too b/c my memory is that you really weren't having a fully engaged dialogue with him. Just the facts please sort of demeanor. It didn't work. Daredevil was kind of catatonic too - and I think he has otherwise been a very good cohost.

I am out of step with what is going on here and will back off cause I am just gonna start trolling - I am that annoyed.

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Originally Posted by Sanlmar

Place any bets on the Dodgers game tonight with Bovada?

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

It's a basic rule of society. Except in cases of extreme, life-changing injustice, you can't just pick and choose laws which you find inconvenient, break them,

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.

regardless of the shenanigans & devious methods (Safe Ports Bill) used by game playing legislators. Pledge Allegiance.

You have elected a tone and a line of commentary with this story that is unimaginative, straight-laced and frankly dull. I can't help but feel personal feelings have limited your creative thinking & range. But that's just me.

I will relisten to Drexel's reaction to the story during the last radio show to try to pinpoint why his take resonates with me and yours does not. Just to satisfy my own curiousity. I suggest you relisten too b/c my memory is that you really weren't having a fully engaged dialogue with him. Just the facts please sort of demeanor. It didn't work. Daredevil was kind of catatonic too - and I think he has otherwise been a very good cohost.

I am out of step with what is going on here and will back off cause I am just gonna start trolling - I am that annoyed.

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would you let drex tea bag you right now? be honest.

Taboo subject: Say you were Micon and the prosecutor offers you a moderate fine and probation and drop the felony upon completion plea deal in exchange for your cooperation. You have to tell them everything about your business partners and their operation and you do indeed know their identity and operation.


Refuse to cooperate and you'll get a presumptive 5 to 7 years in prison, cooperate and you go home tonight.

Do you snitch?

If you say no and start quoting rap lyrics i say you're a fucking liar and can't be trusted.

There was a real DEA show on spike for a while not a fake or re enactment show and the offers they would give for cooperation were so fucking insanely +ev. those guys turned hardened thugs in to snitches with alarming ease.

Don't put yourself in a position to rat or be ratted on period.

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Originally Posted by FPS_Russia

Taboo subject: Say you were Micon and the prosecutor offers you a moderate fine and probation and drop the felony upon completion plea deal in exchange for your cooperation. You have to tell them everything about your business partners and their operation and you do indeed know their identity and operation.


Refuse to cooperate and you'll get a presumptive 5 to 7 years in prison, cooperate and you go home tonight.

Do you snitch?

If you say no and start quoting rap lyrics i say you're a fucking liar and can't be trusted.

There was a real DEA show on spike for a while not a fake or re enactment show and the offers they would give for cooperation were so fucking insanely +ev. those guys turned hardened thugs in to snitches with alarming ease.

Don't put yourself in a position to rat or be ratted on period.

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Nevada State Gaming Commission. How long has this laughable authority been allowed to exist. They are as corrupt as the U.S. Government if that's possible. Bullies with money and the ability to chuck your ass in jail or at least make their big threats until they see some money.

Fuck the U.S. Government. I'd move to Bulgaria before cooperating with those two faced bastards.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FPS_Russia

Taboo subject: Say you were Micon and the prosecutor offers you a moderate fine and probation and drop the felony upon completion plea deal in exchange for your cooperation. You have to tell them everything about your business partners and their operation and you do indeed know their identity and operation.


Refuse to cooperate and you'll get a presumptive 5 to 7 years in prison, cooperate and you go home tonight.

Do you snitch?

If you say no and start quoting rap lyrics i say you're a fucking liar and can't be trusted.

There was a real DEA show on spike for a while not a fake or re enactment show and the offers they would give for cooperation were so fucking insanely +ev. those guys turned hardened thugs in to snitches with alarming ease.

Don't put yourself in a position to rat or be ratted on period.

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moderate fine, probation and no prison is a no brainer. anyone who says otherwise is full of shit.

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Originally Posted by Sanlmar

Place any bets on the Dodgers game tonight with Bovada?

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Terrible example. Placing bets on unlicensed sites is not against the law.

But even if it were, there's a HUGE difference between being a user of an illegal service and a provider of it.

It's also a terrible example because I'm not enjoying any kind of competitive advantage by being able to place sportsbets on Bovada. I am doing the exact same gambling I could do in a Vegas casino, but just with a different bookmaker.

Running an unlicensed site is completely different. Not only are you putting customers at risk by not having gone through any kind of vetting or regulatory process, but you are also making lots of money by offering an illegal service that you otherwise couldn't make if you were following the law.

Law breakers should never be favored over law followers. Period.

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Originally Posted by Sanlmar

[You have elected a tone and a line of commentary with this story that is unimaginative, straight-laced and frankly dull. I can't help but feel personal feelings have limited your creative thinking & range. But that's just me.

I will relisten to Drexel's reaction to the story during the last radio show to try to pinpoint why his take resonates with me and yours does not. Just to satisfy my own curiousity. I suggest you relisten too b/c my memory is that you really weren't having a fully engaged dialogue with him. Just the facts please sort of demeanor. It didn't work. Daredevil was kind of catatonic too - and I think he has otherwise been a very good cohost.

I am out of step with what is going on here and will back off cause I am just gonna start trolling - I am that annoyed.

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You don't have to re-listen. I can answer this for you.

Aside from the fact that any show is simply better with Brandon's presence, the real reason you loved his commentary and disliked mine (and Daredevil's) is because you have an absolute hatred of the concept of government regulation of online poker. You and I have been down this road of debate before. Daredevil and I took a position of, "There are laws and regulations regarding providing online poker, Micon knowingly broke them and benefited from doing so, and now he has to pay the price". Drexel did not take this position, but rather provided us with general thoughts about Micon's fate and colorful stories about St. Maarten and Steve the Bodyguard. Drexel didn't necessarily disagree with our takes (I don't know his position, to be honest), but he didn't touch upon the subject which you hate so much. I'm not criticizing him for this, as he only had limited time to talk and a bad connection. Anyway, that's why you enjoyed his segment and disliked ours.

I admitted at the beginning of the show that I have a bias about the situation.

But I'm also not deviating from my long-held viewpoint that providers of illegal/unlicensed online poker are not heroes or freedom fighters, but rather profiteers who are benefiting from extremely decreased competition due to the illegality of what they're doing.

Simply put, I don't hate them for doing it, and I will sometimes use their services, but I'm not going to cry for them when they get caught.

Much like you shouldn't cry for me when I sit down at a poker table and lose a large sum of money.

In both cases, it's a calculated risk, and you can't bitch about the consequences when you lose.

It's also important to understand that Micon was breaking the law for profit.

I can sometimes respect those who break the law for a cause that is important to them, provided their actions aren't too extreme and don't harm innocent people.

But when you're "rebelling" against the law simply to line your own pockets, you are not deserving of any sympathy or adulation, and definitely shouldn't be asking for donations for a legal defense fund when you're caught.

I am sure I am going to have to post this a least a dozen more times in this thread.

1. Doesn't matter if he owned Seals or not by profiting from Seals he is guilty of a class b felony.

2. Seals, Stars/Full Tilt are very different one is a state case, one was a federal case. The comparisons are retarded at best.

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Originally Posted by limitles

Nevada State Gaming Commission. How long has this laughable authority been allowed to exist. They are as corrupt as the U.S. Government if that's possible. Bullies with money and the ability to chuck your ass in jail or at least make their big threats until they see some money.

Fuck the U.S. Government. I'd move to Bulgaria before cooperating with those two faced bastards.

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The fact the NGC has guns is amazing in itself.

The Nevada Athletic Commission isn't run by the smartest bulbs in the garden, either.

somebody raised this question earlier in this thread....

does this even happen if micon was smart enough to drive an hour south to Arizona to set up shop?

id say no...

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

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Originally Posted by Headshot

Druff - Repost that mouthful on 2+2 and let me know how it goes for you. All those "normally smart" people clearly need to be enlightened.

Given that you still don't get it, I'm starting to think you never will. This has nothing to do with "the law".

Everyone knows that online poker shouldn't be illegal. So it's not that hard to understand why people that like playing online poker are upset they lost another one of their dwindling options by virtue of some big interest bullshit, especially when others committed real crimes on a scale thousands of times worse and nothing happened to them, why is that?

We can agree that Micon was at least partly responsible (even as marketing guy) for running or being involved with an unlicensed site from a highly flawed location.

Seriously though, who gives fuck? Seals didn't steal/scam/cheat anybody. You play and bet sports on other unlicensed sites all the time. Why is that?

Based on the lack of options for USA players, Micon was able to generate a few hundred nerds willing to play for funny money just so they could cash out quickly and have a decent community to play cards.

He went about it wrong obviously but the whole "he made money when I could of" or "omg unlicensed rogue operator" stuff is just retarded.

The lawmakers made a horrendously dumb law for bullshit reasons. While I don't advocate breaking laws and thumbing your nose at enforcement, jail is by no means anywhere near the proper punishment for a guy like Micon.

These "laws" you have such a boner for... are they being enforced uniformly? I have a tee time tomorrow at 2 with Lederer if you're free?

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Why is "he made money when everyone else otherwise could if they were also willing to break the law" a retarded argument?

It's absolutely true.

You are punishing everyone who followed the laws/regulations if you knowingly allow those breaking the laws to profit by doing so.

That's why it's absolutely idiotic to claim that Micon should have gone untouched by authorities because "poker should be legal".

Okay, so if we say that online poker should be legal, and even if we say that anyone should be able to run unregulated online gaming sites without consequence, why the fuck does Micon deserve a head start to make money from it when everyone else is waiting for the law to be changed.

It's a basic rule of society. Except in cases of extreme, life-changing injustice, you can't just pick and choose laws which you find inconvenient, break them, and then whine about persecution when you are arrested and prosecuted for it.

If you want to take a chance and offer illegal online poker to US residents (and get personally enriched in return), fine. I have no problem with that, just as I have no problem with sites like Bovada taking that same chance. However, it's retarded to whine about being persecuted when you get caught.

The bottom line is that Micon should not be let off simply because we don't agree with current online poker laws. He used those laws to profit big, and now he has to accept the negative consequences of those same laws.

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Bro really?? Are You celebrating with a Big Gulp of Pepsi?? Woo-Hoo Micon is in trouble!! You 2 were close friends for many years and for you to spew this bs u r spewing shows a lot more about you then him. He was your friend before bro. Wishing you to have a heart attack LOL Guy's facing the biggest battle of his life.. Only thing similar was Druff vs Micon accsess to pm's on donkdown!! Get a fucking grip..

Better yet go to jail for a few day's champ!! I'm sure a few Subway sandwich makers can make this happen.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Terrible example. Placing bets on unlicensed sites is not against the law.

But even if it were, there's a HUGE difference between being a user of an illegal service and a provider of it.

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Ok good to know that the providers of sites like Bovada that you voluntarily play on should be punished for providing you the ability to play lol

If it really bothered you that providers were breaking the law, wouldn't you be ethically inclined to try to at least cover the subject in a blog or on pfa radio?

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

I admitted at the beginning of the show that I have a bias about the situation.

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As expected.

The focal point here should no be that "omg Micon is such an idiot, fuck him, etc" as many of you have maintained that stance since pretty much forever and for sure after the DD/Drexel/Druff fallout. We all understand he broke the law and thumbed his nose at the authority and those decisions proved to be very problematic.

The problem for me is that online poker is broken and this case is a manifestation of the everything that's bullshit. Seals didn't rip anyone off, it was an honest site with fast, reliable cash-outs and no fees. To have that option was quite refreshing actually.

Druff Im sure u r still mad at the people in grade school who called you Todd is Odd, Or the times u were picked last for Kick Ball. You still mad at the coach who called u a jew, kike and said its right field or noting Dan cuz he forgot your name?? Then u said I want to play first base like Fred Mcgriff.

Coach says: Dan Druff get to right field we don't give a fuck about the crime dog we want to win u idiot..

Stop lying how u got your nickname bro. That shit happened in right field

Dan D Ruff

Vanuys California 8-9 yr old Mighty Mites Baseball Team

TODD IS GOD/ thread