I watched a lot of the Chael hearing, and the entire Overeem hearing. Combine that with how Feijao's hearing went the other day where they upheld his suspension even though the testing procedure itself was riddled with clerical and procedural errors but they upheld it anyway, and I fully believe commissions are capable of anything on any given day.Originally Posted by FR1GHT
I like how people like to discount Sliva's win here. Yes he got a lucky submission given the position he was in. Everybody forgets that Sonnen tested positive. The roids are a huge factor. Had he not been on them the fight wouldn't have even went down that way. See fight 2. People don't realize how huge of an advantage roids are. There are plenty of Silva haters who like to blindly point at that fight like it shows a weakness in Silva. God forbid anybody steps in the ring on a night where he ends up testing positive for roids. Think McGuire, Sosa and Bonds. They turn athletes into superstars going after records.
How am I discounting his win? anytime you get submitted you get caught, thats just the standard verbiage used for what happened. I also dont think it was a lucky sub for the position he was in, it was a standard triangle based off a mistake Sonnen made. Silva has solid BJJ and Sonnen got sloppy.
Yeah, but it shouldn't be about being capable on any given day. In this age they should be able to make decisions based on verifiable fact. Not how they woke up that day. At the end of the day they aren't supposed to biased. The one thing that isn't biased is data and to make decisions that don't rely on it are now favorable.I watched a lot of the Chael hearing, and the entire Overeem hearing. Combine that with how Feijao's hearing went the other day where they upheld his suspension even though the testing procedure itself was riddled with clerical and procedural errors but they upheld it anyway, and I fully believe commissions are capable of anything on any given day.
Everything isn't that cut and dry. For example, when a close un/favorable strike is landed. That goes to the judges.
But when it comes to test results there is no room for discussion. The data speaks for itself.
My bad on the assumption.
How am I discounting his win? anytime you get submitted you get caught, thats just the standard verbiage used for what happened. I also dont think it was a lucky sub for the position he was in, it was a standard triangle based off a mistake Sonnen made. Silva has solid BJJ and Sonnen got sloppy.
I just assumed "he got lucky with his submission."
Started a nice debate though.
no worries and yup, wracked up the total numbers for the thread. I don't know much about the topic related to what Sonnen was or wasn't on. I'm not a fan of cheaters in any sport so hopefully in the future he's competing legally, that's all I give a shit about. I think for the Jones fight he could take any roids he wants and he's nearly drawing dead. I don't remember all of Jones fights, can anyone remember him being taken down?My bad on the assumption.
I just assumed "he got lucky with his submission."
Started a nice debate though.
I give Jones/Silva 50/50. You can't beat that. Jones shows the most promise ever, but Silva is the most proven. As nasty as it gets. More capable youth vs an equal experienced fighter. I know Jones is bad, but anybody who discounts Silva's skills first of all vs his fight experience is sorely mistaken. This would not be definite Jones win or Silva win. I call toss up. Anything else is ridiculous.no worries and yup, wracked up the total numbers for the thread. I don't know much about the topic related to what Sonnen was or wasn't on. I'm not a fan of cheaters in any sport so hopefully in the future he's competing legally, that's all I give a shit about. I think for the Jones fight he could take any roids he wants and he's nearly drawing dead. I don't remember all of Jones fights, can anyone remember him being taken down?
I say if anybody takes Silva down it will be Jones. That doesn't means Jones will. It just means he is most capable. Jones might not do it and Silva might retire without that defeat.
On the other hand the talk about Silva vs GSP...not much to talk about. Silva will tee off on him and that will be that. GSP might be a great take down artist pound for pound, but Sonnen is a good at it too, but bigger. GSP won't take Silva down either. That fight is finished before GSP even knows it's finished.
At the end of the overeem hearing (nsac?), after we hear about how he tried to dodge his test, how he had this crazy dodgy doctor in nowhere Texas, how he had no issues injecting whatever mix the doctor threw in the unlabeled vials for him but whatever its fine cuz Tra Telligman said it was cool, etc etc more bullshit, the commissioner thanked overeem for his professional behavior through the stretch of events and remarked how they feel he'd been honest and open with them through the whole process. Opposite Day-type stuff. Nobody was more evasive or more full of shit than overeem, and they were pretty much sucking him off by the end of the hearing.
despite Goldberg claiming Silva having great takedown D in his last fight against Bonner I believe that is his achilles heel. He has been taken down a ton in his career and not just by olympic calibre wrestlers. Lutter took him down easily, Hendo did and Sonnen took him down over and over. I think GSP has as good a shot as anyone to take Silva down, I believe if they fight he will take him down and if he doesnt get caught probably at will. What I don't think is that GSP can finish Silva on the ground and I don't think GSP can avoid Silvas thunder standing over the course of 5 rounds. Silva is a heavy favorite in that fight but I still think GSP will show off some excellent wrestling. This is all assuming GSP has healed up 100% from his knee surgery and is the same athlete he was prior, that is a big if.I give Jones/Silva 50/50. You can't beat that. Jones shows the most promise ever, but Silva is the most proven. As nasty as it gets. More capable youth vs an equal experienced fighter. I know Jones is bad, but anybody who discounts Silva's skills first of all vs his fight experience is sorely mistaken. This would not be definite Jones win or Silva win. I call toss up. Anything else is ridiculous.
I say if anybody takes Silva down it will be Jones. That doesn't means Jones will. It just means he is most capable. Jones might not do it and Silva might retire without that defeat.
On the other hand the talk about Silva vs GSP...not much to talk about. Silva will tee off on him and that will be that. GSP might be a great take down artist pound for pound, but Sonnen is a good at it too, but bigger. GSP won't take Silva down either. That fight is finished before GSP even knows it's finished.
I think Bones beats Silva mainly due to terrific wrestling, that fight needs to fucking happen. It is the most interesting fight in MMA history IMO and by far the best super fight out there. If Silva vs Bones doesn't happen I really want to see Weidman vs Silva, I think Weidman is just a better and more dangerous version of Sonnen and that's the best test for Silva at 185. Silva is the sports greatest athlete but I think it's a shame he seems to have no interest in his two toughest tests out there.
I agree with what you're saying, but I believe in the "what have you done for me lately" stance. These fighters are always evolving. Especially a fighter like Silva. Why do you think he has that record? Silva might be known for being taken down. That's why in the first fight Sonnen came for blood on the take down (disputed as juiced or not), but he held it. After that they went round two and Sonnen tried the take down approach. Not nearly as capable. Completely destroyed.
Jones has the capability to exploit that. Maybe Jones wins in decision, but there is only one man who wins in KO and that's Silva. The man is untouchable in the chin.
As far as GSP goes, I don't have much more to say. Silva proved against a much bigger Sonnen in fight 2 he wasn't going to be taken down. A smaller GSP is more likely to get knocked out by chin to knee than he is to put him on the ground.
That fight would have happened earlier, but White is smart. He's not going to sacrifice GSP to Silva, because they are both big draws.
silva's td has improved dramatically in the last year.
what are you basing this on? He's had 2 fights, one where he was taken down instantly by Sonnen to start the first and a fight against Bonnar who has horrific wrestling. I'm sure he's been working on his wrestling and it's likely improved but nothing in the past year verifies that.
Sonnen walked right up to Silva instantly in the first round in fight two, took him down and controlled him and ended the round in the full mount. In the second round they clinched briefly and that was about it, we all know what happened after that. I think GSP has shown the very best wrestling consistenly in MMA. I think he would take Silva down, I've seen far worse mma wrestlers take Silva down. I don't even think it has a lot to do with Silva having bad takedown D, I just don't think he's worried about it. He isn't willing to sacrifice his offense standing to avoid takedowns so he just accepts it will probably happen and that on the ground nobody is going to finish him. I agree with you that his chin is too good and his BJJ is reliable. We both agree on how the GSP v Silva fight would end (GSP out cold). I also agree that Jones probably wouldn't finish Silva, I think he would come in with a typical Greg Jackson style gameplan, be very cautious on the feet and exploit his better wrestling and grind out a dull win.I agree with what you're saying, but I believe in the "what have you done for me lately" stance. These fighters are always evolving. Especially a fighter like Silva. Why do you think he has that record? Silva might be known for being taken down. That's why in the first fight Sonnen came for blood on the take down (disputed as juiced or not), but he held it. After that they went round two and Sonnen tried the take down approach. Not nearly as capable. Completely destroyed.
Jones has the capability to exploit that. Maybe Jones wins in decision, but there is only one man who wins in KO and that's Silva. The man is untouchable in the chin.
As far as GSP goes, I don't have much more to say. Silva proved against a much bigger Sonnen in fight 2 he wasn't going to be taken down. A smaller GSP is more likely to get knocked out by chin to knee than he is to put him on the ground. That fight would have happened earlier, but White is smart. He's not going to sacrifice GSP to Silva, because they are both big draws.
Last edited by peter mcneil; 10-19-2012 at 06:50 AM.
I hate to be the typical Sonnen fan that defends him, but he didn't lose because he was trying to take Anderson down and lay on him. In the first round he took him down and landed 14 strikes where Anderson landed 0 the entire round. Chael fucked up when he tried to do something outside of his normal skill set by throwing the spinning backfist.
http://hosteddb.fightmetric.com/fights/index/3941
In the first fight you can make the argument that Chael did not do damage but you cannot claim that he laid on Anderson. He landed 320 total strikes of which 89 were rated as significant. He also passed Silva's guard a total of 6 times which does not happen if you are laying on someone doing nothing.
http://hosteddb.fightmetric.com/fights/index/2892
I've never actually heard anyone accuse Sonnen of laying on Silva in fight 1 or round 1 of fight 2. He was super active in both fights, constant GnP and battling for control. No visible damage was done in fight 1 but Sonnen did land a lot of big shots, Silva just has a ridiculously good chin. We've all seen Silva drop his hands and get tagged standing and he never bats an eye. The only time I've seen him get hurt was when Sonnen dropped him briefly in round 1 of fight 1.
Last edited by peter mcneil; 10-19-2012 at 07:06 AM.
I agree completely. This is a flush shot that he took from Bonnar and kept going like it was nothing.
I saw fight 2 and it looked like fight 1. He came out and did exactly in fight 1 that he did in fight 2. He just got caught earlier in the 2nd fight. To me once he missed the sbf he quit. Anderson did end it with an illegal knee by using the fence for leverage, but that besides the point. I dont understand how you can be so dominate and the 1st time you get hit you roll up in a ball.I like how people like to discount Sliva's win here. Yes he got a lucky submission given the position he was in. Everybody forgets that Sonnen tested positive. The roids are a huge factor. Had he not been on them the fight wouldn't have even went down that way. See fight 2. People don't realize how huge of an advantage roids are. There are plenty of Silva haters who like to blindly point at that fight like it shows a weakness in Silva. God forbid anybody steps in the ring on a night where he ends up testing positive for roids. Think McGuire, Sosa and Bonds. They turn athletes into superstars going after records.
he gassed, plain and simple. Apparently he had a brutal cut (why he's moving to 205) and you could see him walk to his corner after the first ended and he was fucked, totally out of gas. I think he had nothing left in the second and looked for a way out...I also think he got caught with some big fucking shots, Silva hurts everyone he touches but Sonnen was toast.
How could he be gassed by beating someone up for 5 minutes from the top? Last Time he beat the same guy up for 20+ minutes. He uses the so called best nutrition guy in Mike Dolce whos book is a total joke. He knew he wasnt going to stop Silva he was going to have to fight 25 minutes to win so why would he come in out of shape? Makes no sense to me. It pisses me off that some one (Silva) can be considered the best pfp fighter in the world, but get his ass whipped by a guy with a shitty record just because he comes back to win the fight. He was still totally dominated by Sonnen for 5.5 rounds out of a little over 6 rounds.he gassed, plain and simple. Apparently he had a brutal cut (why he's moving to 205) and you could see him walk to his corner after the first ended and he was fucked, totally out of gas. I think he had nothing left in the second and looked for a way out...I also think he got caught with some big fucking shots, Silva hurts everyone he touches but Sonnen was toast.
first of all when you gnp and try to control someone from the top you are working fucking hard, Im guessing you never roll or train? Theres a reason why getting on top of a heavy bag and giving it gnp on the ground is a conditioning drill. Sonnen said he had put on 12lbs of mass for the second fight and the cut was hell, you could see it at the weigh in. A bad cut will gas even the fittest competitor. He's moving up to 205 because of his weight, his media bs is that he is only after a title but he simply struggles with the cut to 185. Watch the fight again, he looks like fucking hell at the weigh in, looks like hell after the first round coming back to his corner and he looks like shit coming out for the second. I also think his gas tank was questionable looking against Bisping but Bisping isnt skilled enough to take advantage of it the way Silva is. I'm not sure what you're pissed off about, both those fights finished in a position that Silva could end Sonnens life if a ref wasnt there to stop it. Silva was the better man, finished him 2/2 times. I like Sonnen more but that's just the way it is. BTW - Sonnens record isn't shitty recently, it's terrific.How could he be gassed by beating someone up for 5 minutes from the top? Last Time he beat the same guy up for 20+ minutes. He uses the so called best nutrition guy in Mike Dolce whos book is a total joke. He knew he wasnt going to stop Silva he was going to have to fight 25 minutes to win so why would he come in out of shape? Makes no sense to me. It pisses me off that some one (Silva) can be considered the best pfp fighter in the world, but get his ass whipped by a guy with a shitty record just because he comes back to win the fight. He was still totally dominated by Sonnen for 5.5 rounds out of a little over 6 rounds.
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