Bitcoins are officially donkdown

[Sanlmar]

I give less importance to supply and demand and more to good old speculation and Chinese currency games.


As the reward for mining is halved, the utility will probably get worse than it already is. Hard to imagine.

Transaction times are slower than ever and the whole Bitcoin thing is really becoming a pain in the ass. If I wasn't so committed to illegal gaming I wouldn't give Bitcoin more than passing interest these days.

As some sports wagering site charged me a processing fee for a fucking DEPOSIT, I was thinking buying an unregistered hand gun is easier now and I know who my first target would be.

[sonatine]

If I wasn't so committed to illegal [activites] I wouldn't give Bitcoin more than passing interest these days.

:SFO

[Crowe Diddly]

in a money laundering case in Florida, undercover cops bought $1500 worth of bitcoin off a guy and told him they were gonna buy stolen credit cards with it. They found him thru localbitcoins.com, they met a few times, purchase made, then guy gets charged with money laundering.

The court ruled that since bitcoin isn't backed by anyone and has almost none of the properties we associate with money, then bitcoin ≠ money. Therefore, money laundering does not apply to bitcoin.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/loca...e91682102.html
http://fortune.com/2016/07/25/bitcoi...g-miami-judge/

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A Miami-Dade judge ruled Monday that Bitcoin is not actually money, a decision hailed by proponents of the virtual currency that has become popular across the world.
In a case closely watched in financial and tech circles, the judge threw out the felony charges against website designer Michell Espinoza, who had been charged with illegally transmitting and laundering $1,500 worth of Bitcoins. He sold them to undercover detectives who told him they wanted to use the money to buy stolen credit-card numbers.
But Miami-Dade Circuit Judge Teresa Mary Pooler ruled that Bitcoin was not backed by any government or bank, and was not “tangible wealth” and “cannot be hidden under a mattress like cash and gold bars.”
“The court is not an expert in economics; however, it is very clear, even to someone with limited knowledge in the area, the Bitcoin has a long way to go before it the equivalent of money,” Pooler wrote in an eight-page order.
The judge also wrote that Florida law — which says someone can be charged with money laundering if they engage in a financial transaction that will “promote” illegal activity — is way too vague to apply to Bitcoin.
“This court is unwilling to punish a man for selling his property to another, when his actions fall under a statute that is so vaguely written that even legal professionals have difficulty finding a singular meaning,” she wrote.
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[Dan Druff]

This is a good ruling.

Right now it's technically a crime to sell your BTC unless through a licensed third party.

So if sonatine said, "Hey Druff, do you have $1000 in BTC you can ship me?", and I ship him the bitcoin in exchange for $1000 cash, I've technically committed a crime.

Dumb.

This ruling, while on the state level of Florida, is very positive for dismantling this whole stupid law.

This case had an extra level, though, where the guy not only sold his BTC, but sold them to an undercover agent who stated that he was going to use them to commit a crime (buy stolen credit cards). Still, that should not be a crime, because the guy selling the bitcoin shouldn't have to vet the buyers as to what is going to be done with them.

[simpdog]

This is a good ruling.

Right now it's technically a crime to sell your BTC unless through a licensed third party.

So if sonatine said, "Hey Druff, do you have $1000 in BTC you can ship me?", and I ship him the bitcoin in exchange for $1000 cash, I've technically committed a crime.

Dumb.

This ruling, while on the state level of Florida, is very positive for dismantling this whole stupid law.

This case had an extra level, though, where the guy not only sold his BTC, but sold them to an undercover agent who stated that he was going to use them to commit a crime (buy stolen credit cards). Still, that should not be a crime, because the guy selling the bitcoin shouldn't have to vet the buyers as to what is going to be done with them.

But are you okay with Joe's Gun Shop selling a gun to Muhammad Muhammad who mentioned he wanted to buy an assault rifle to shoot random white people?

[Dan Druff]

This is a good ruling.

Right now it's technically a crime to sell your BTC unless through a licensed third party.

So if sonatine said, "Hey Druff, do you have $1000 in BTC you can ship me?", and I ship him the bitcoin in exchange for $1000 cash, I've technically committed a crime.

Dumb.

This ruling, while on the state level of Florida, is very positive for dismantling this whole stupid law.

This case had an extra level, though, where the guy not only sold his BTC, but sold them to an undercover agent who stated that he was going to use them to commit a crime (buy stolen credit cards). Still, that should not be a crime, because the guy selling the bitcoin shouldn't have to vet the buyers as to what is going to be done with them.

But are you okay with Joe's Gun Shop selling a gun to Muhammad Muhammad who mentioned he wanted to buy an assault rifle to shoot random white people?

No, but two huge differences.

First off, one is committing murder/terrorism, while the other is committing credit card fraud.

Second, the gun is actually an instrument used to commit the crime. Bitcoins are not being used to commit crimes. They are just being used as a currency to pay for some crimes. It becomes a slippery slope if someone buys something from you, and then you have to worry if they're going to trade that item in exchange for something illegal. It should not be the bitcoin seller's concern what the bitcoin are being used for, except perhaps in the case of terrorism, murder, or some other super-violent crime.

[simpdog]

But are you okay with Joe's Gun Shop selling a gun to Muhammad Muhammad who mentioned he wanted to buy an assault rifle to shoot random white people?

No, but two huge differences.

First off, one is committing murder/terrorism, while the other is committing credit card fraud.

Second, the gun is actually an instrument used to commit the crime. Bitcoins are not being used to commit crimes. They are just being used as a currency to pay for some crimes. It becomes a slippery slope if someone buys something from you, and then you have to worry if they're going to trade that item in exchange for something illegal. It should not be the bitcoin seller's concern what the bitcoin are being used for, except perhaps in the case of terrorism, murder, or some other super-violent crime.

What if the person selling BTC was selling it so the person could use BTC to buy a gun but didn't specify?

Or what if the person buying BTC was going to buy drugs?

You are very lenient on financial crimes (ie CC fraud) as you just assume they are big corporations who have insurance/can write it off as the cost of doing business.

I feel somewhat the same way on the issue, but at the same time think BTC should also be charged as money laundering/insert any other fraud/financial type crimes for sure.

[MumblesBadly]

This is a good ruling.

Right now it's technically a crime to sell your BTC unless through a licensed third party.

So if sonatine said, "Hey Druff, do you have $1000 in BTC you can ship me?", and I ship him the bitcoin in exchange for $1000 cash, I've technically committed a crime.

Dumb.

This ruling, while on the state level of Florida, is very positive for dismantling this whole stupid law.

This case had an extra level, though, where the guy not only sold his BTC, but sold them to an undercover agent who stated that he was going to use them to commit a crime (buy stolen credit cards). Still, that should not be a crime, because the guy selling the bitcoin shouldn't have to vet the buyers as to what is going to be done with them.

Please provide a definite source to support this statement. And I don't just mean per that court ruling in Florida. Because it is possible that such a law is unconstitional, nor is there likely a federal law stilulating such a condition. So, at best, such restrictions are state-by-state and as yet untested before SCOTUS

---

Edit: Never mind. I found a Coindesk article that alluedes to the law regarding such transactions.
http://www.coindesk.com/will-florida...apply-bitcoin/

And those laws apply to when someone makes frequent transactions on a non-trivial size, not individuals who are infrequently making them.

The state also forbids frequent unlicensed transactions of more than $300 but less than $20,000 in any 12-month period.

The intent of such a law is to force people engaging in businesses with non-trivial transactions to register as businesses. The overall intent of such laws are to have businesses be registered with the state for tax collection, business activity regulation for public safety, and fraud determent (e.g. prevent those with prior convictions from operating certain businesses).

As such, individuals are free to trade bitcoin between themselves without either being a licensed business provided that the amount isn't too large to appear to be a business activity, and neither of them makes such transactions frequently enough to be considered a business.

[Mintjewlips]

Moral of the story, if you're going to hire a hit man, pay him (or her) in bitcoin. Got it.

[Starbucks Spunk Bucket]

Moral of the story, if you're going to hire a hit man, pay him (or her) in bitcoin. Got it.

Wonder if they'd be able to track Mumbles and Larry down....

[Dan Druff]

After awhile of stability in the 650-670 range, bitcoin has taken a dump again.

It's down to 612, all of this happening in the past 36 hours.

The theory is that the uncertainty regarding block size (a longtime issue dogging bitcoin and causing tons of controversy) is making people lose faith in it.

I unloaded 8 of mine yesterday at 632. I previously unloaded 10 coins at 682. I have 3.5 left.

I actually have a pending Bovada cashout in BTC, so I'm hoping it falls further so I get more BTC from Bovada, and then obv want to see it pop back up.

[badguy23]

It just dropped to 575.00

[Sanlmar]

After awhile of stability in the 650-670 range, bitcoin has taken a dump again.

It's down to 612, all of this happening in the past 36 hours.

The theory is that the uncertainty regarding block size (a longtime issue dogging bitcoin and causing tons of controversy) is making people lose faith in it.

I unloaded 8 of mine yesterday at 632. I previously unloaded 10 coins at 682. I have 3.5 left.

I actually have a pending Bovada cashout in BTC, so I'm hoping it falls further so I get more BTC from Bovada, and then obv want to see it pop back up.

I know you know but this is why you mute CNBC. Writers who need to fill the page and talking heads with dead air search for reasons. They are nearly always wrong.

Sometimes it's just profit taking and fear. Sometimes it's just the chart. Fundamentals will get you killed short term most of the time.

[Dan Druff]

Bitinfinex hacked.

Uh oh.

Prepare for a crash.

Today we discovered a security breach that requires us to halt all trading on Bitfinex, as well as halt all digital token deposits to and withdrawals from Bitfinex.
We are investigating the breach to determine what happened, but we know that some of our users have had their bitcoins stolen. We are undertaking a review to determine which users have been affected by the breach. While we conduct this initial investigation and secure our environment, bitfinex.com will be taken down and the maintenance page will be left up.

The theft is being reported to—and we are co-operating with—law enforcement.

As we account for individualized customer losses, we may need to settle open margin positions, associated financing, and/or collateral affected by the breach. Any settlements will be at the current market prices as of 18:00 UTC. We are taking this necessary accounting step to normalize account balances with the objective of resuming operations. We will look at various options to address customer losses later in the investigation. While we are halting all operations at this time, we can confirm that the breach was limited to bitcoin wallets; the other digital tokens traded on Bitfinex are unaffected.

We will post updates as and when appropriate on our status page (Bitfinex.statuspage.io) and on the maintenance page. We are deeply concerned about this issue and we are committing every resource to try to resolve it. We ask for the community’s patience as we unravel the causes and consequences of this breach.

[sonatine]

[sonatine]

in before completely retarded mumbles deflection/redirection

[MumblesBadly]

Looks like panic selling. Bitfinex's news release was at 6:10 PM UTC today. The major sell-off on this USD exchange started at about that time.



But there wasn't (yet?) a comparable mega-spike reaction in this typically busy Chinese exchange.



Sanlmar: Does this look like the precursor to a trading opportunity? Meaning, when the panic (?) selling in the USD market subsides, the likely still optimistic Chinese trading activity will push the USD price back up, even of more slowly than the price effect of the sell-off?

Also: The heavy selling in the USD market could also be due in part to USD speculators unloading BTC because their ability to hedge BTC risk using Bitfinex has been halted for the time being (assuming USD speculators are their predominant clients.) This phenomena has been observed in financial markets of ordinary securities, although typically in the other direction (underlying security prices higher with development of active trading in corresponding derivatives).

[BeerAndPoker]

$519 and dipping.

I'm happy that I only have a few bucks still left in coin atm.

Make that $505 just two minutes later lol

$492 another minute later.

[Belly Buster]

The theft is being reported to—and we are co-operating with—law enforcement.

[Sanlmar]

$519 and dipping.

I'm happy that I only have a few bucks still left in coin atm.

Make that $505 just two minutes later lol

$492 another minute later.

Wow. Sometimes stuff like Bitfinix is just a catalyst. It gets things started and the rest of the move is pain.

Look above say, $500. Think about all those people who bought at those levels. They wanna get out. Every bounce they will sell into it and kill the rise.

I try to cash out and buy in a rising market.

I wonder about Druffs cash out. I don't know about Bovada but I have this suspicion there is only one big Bitcoin processor.

My experience is that they use a price average that often lags the market. So on the way down you get fewer coin. Whatever.

I still hope Druff binks a nice bounce. He did well on his last foray. Hopefully, he lets us sweat his trade.

Anyway, that is one big ugly extended daily red candle and smells of capitulation and there usually is a bounce to trade quickly.