Rivera & Wetteland
Rivera & Wetteland
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Originally Posted by Hockey Guy
The "closers" hate setting up because saves are so tied to money. The save is a dumb stat and should be abolished.
Last edited by ToasterOven; 12-08-2015 at 07:55 PM.
There are other numbers besides saves. I am not sure there are going to be a lot of saves to be had in LA anyway unless the front office gets active.
But in the absence of any good story lines for Dodgers, I would market the shit out of the bullpen. Assuming Chapman was there. Make them cult heroes. Made for TV. Assuming you can get them on TV.
I dunno. That is stuff good coaches and front offices do. You well know the Nationals were a clusterfuck in that department. Surprised Storen & Papelbon or anything else went south?
The Cubs have so many great story lines. But let's assume they were in LA, I guarandamntee you Madden & Epstein would crush that potential problem.
I still can't get over Dave Roberts. Please explain.
Anyway, how the fuck did the nerd trust miss the Chapman issue? With all the Dodger issues it was interesting to see this closer as their first priority.
Even number year anyway.
Cubs just traded Starlin Castro to the Yankees for Adam Warren
Diamondbacks really swinging for the fences acquiring Shelby Miller at a steeeeep cost. Their top two prospects (including #1 pick from last year, the SS Swanson who looks like a stud) and Inciarte, a decent enough big league CF.
With the best hitter in baseball, and Greinke-Miller-Corbin at the top of the rotation, I'd think as of right now they should be slightly favored to win the west. Lot of action still to come though.
Bad example, as Rivera was a rookie who failed as a starter the first year of Wetteland, and then became the setup man the next year. Yankees then let Wetteland walk in free agency when they figured out Rivera was better anyway.
The closest example I can think of off the top of my head is the Giants the last 4 years, rotating between Romo and Casilla as the closer, depending on who has the hot hand. That entire situation is just so unique though, SF has maintained practically the exact same bullpen for 5 years or so, they pay them well and the guys seem to not have giant egos.
Don't waste a lot of time with this silly rationalization that two bonafide closers can't coexist. There just aren't a lot of lights out closers - let alone on one team.Bad example, as Rivera was a rookie who failed as a starter the first year of Wetteland, and then became the setup man the next year. Yankees then let Wetteland walk in free agency when they figured out Rivera was better anyway.
The closest example I can think of off the top of my head is the Giants the last 4 years, rotating between Romo and Casilla as the closer, depending on who has the hot hand. That entire situation is just so unique though, SF has maintained practically the exact same bullpen for 5 years or so, they pay them well and the guys seem to not have giant egos.
Was hoping Red Sox would get Miller for Jackie Bradley. Worried Dodgers would deal Joc Pederson for him.
Greg Holland and Wade Davis coexisted pretty damn well the last two years. Kelvin Herrera and Ryan Madsen would be closers on a lot of teams as wellWhen was the last time you saw two elite closers together, where it worked out and they pitched the 8th and 9th in harmony?
Anyone?
Anyone?
Bueller?
.
It's hilarious that we as a society think everyone can be a dr, a lawyer, an engineer. Some people are just fucking stupid. Why can't we just accept that?
Cubs just signed another STL Cardinal....Jason Heyward
My Cubs tickets are looking pretty valuable now.
Pretty pumped.
Heyward is bit strange for the Cubs. I read they plan to use him in center and project him to be league average there. A significant part of Heyward's value is tied to RF defense, where he is the best in the league.
OH YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
Anyone else do a double-take at the astros-phillies trade? The astros have been lauded now for their patient rebuild and stocking of young talent that finally broke through last season. The phillies had been the complete opposite, keeping aging stars way past their prime and letting the entire organization dissolve into a barren wasteland. This trade seems like they swapped identities. Giles has looked sharp in 2 years in the bigs, and obviously is controlled for awhile, but at then end of the day, a closer is a closer. An extremely volatile position that even with a steady hand there all year, still doesn't net much WAR. Especially when their bullpen wasn't exactly a tirefire last year anyway; as GreDrexel and Neshek were generally solid in the back end. Not Giles numbers but not horrible.
For the closer the astros give up Velasquez, a young MLB tested back of the rotation guy who misses bats and has the potential to be a 3 or better. Appel, their number 1 pick from a few years ago who has struggled a bit in the minors, but put up decent numbers last hear in the hitter friendly PCL at AAA and probably could hop in the rotation this year for Philly as well. Oh and Oberholtzer, a generally average/below average starter, but he's MLB level and a lefty, so he'll have a LOOGY role at minimum.
Absolute steal for the phillies.
Last edited by gut; 12-13-2015 at 05:27 PM.
Even a unique club like the Astros will play follow the leader. The Royals won so now everyone wants 3 shutdown relievers to pitch the 7,8,9.
There was no rotation with the Giants. Romo was the closer, then he got crappy, and Casilla moved into the closer role, where he remains. Romo has not returned to close since Casilla got the job. And yes, Romo is the setup man now, but that's different because he was never an elite closer like Chapman or Jansen. He was one of those guys who kinda got good out of nowhere, closed for a few years, but you knew that he could fall apart at any time, and did.Bad example, as Rivera was a rookie who failed as a starter the first year of Wetteland, and then became the setup man the next year. Yankees then let Wetteland walk in free agency when they figured out Rivera was better anyway.
The closest example I can think of off the top of my head is the Giants the last 4 years, rotating between Romo and Casilla as the closer, depending on who has the hot hand. That entire situation is just so unique though, SF has maintained practically the exact same bullpen for 5 years or so, they pay them well and the guys seem to not have giant egos.
Whereas Jansen and Chapman are big talents. Jansen does have health issues which might derail his career, but other than that he should be excellent for years to come.
Phillies have a number of promising young players now. I wouldn't be surprised if they break through soon, though they have a way to go.
I'm not sure if I'm as big of a believer in OF defense value as some others seem to be nowadays.
I understand how having a horrible OF defender can be problematic, and somewhat negate the offense he brings to the table. But I'm not sure if there is all that much value with a great defensive OF versus an average defensive OF. And when I say "all that much value", I'm not saying it's negligible, but I'm also skeptical that an average-good hitter who plays great defensive RF is equivalent to a great-hitting, average defensive RF.
There are just aren't that many really tough plays coming to RF where a great defender will make a huge difference. It's not like 2B, SS, and 3B where there are routine opportunities to shine and take away hits.
This whole obsession with outfield defense has risen with the obsession over the WAR stat, but in reality WAR isn't as statistically correct as some may believe. When a player hits .300, it is 100% statistically correct, because that means he hit 3 times out of 10, and there's no debate about it. Wins over replacement is subjective based upon the factors being used to calculate it, but in reality that's a tough thing to accurately compute, especially when it comes to defense.
Count me as a skeptic of the big contract offered to Heyward, who has never demonstrated he can be a consistently good hitter.
Maybe a good fit for the Cubs, since they already expect to hit for a lot of power, so they don't need a booming bat as much as other teams.
I agree that putting him in CF is baffling, though.
Dexter Fowler is the best free agent CF, and I think he wants to resign with the Cubs. Methinks the Cubs are working on a Soler or Schwarber trade for pitching, to then move Heyward to RF and resign Fowler.I'm not sure if I'm as big of a believer in OF defense value as some others seem to be nowadays.
I understand how having a horrible OF defender can be problematic, and somewhat negate the offense he brings to the table. But I'm not sure if there is all that much value with a great defensive OF versus an average defensive OF. And when I say "all that much value", I'm not saying it's negligible, but I'm also skeptical that an average-good hitter who plays great defensive RF is equivalent to a great-hitting, average defensive RF.
There are just aren't that many really tough plays coming to RF where a great defender will make a huge difference. It's not like 2B, SS, and 3B where there are routine opportunities to shine and take away hits.
This whole obsession with outfield defense has risen with the obsession over the WAR stat, but in reality WAR isn't as statistically correct as some may believe. When a player hits .300, it is 100% statistically correct, because that means he hit 3 times out of 10, and there's no debate about it. Wins over replacement is subjective based upon the factors being used to calculate it, but in reality that's a tough thing to accurately compute, especially when it comes to defense.
Count me as a skeptic of the big contract offered to Heyward, who has never demonstrated he can be a consistently good hitter.
Maybe a good fit for the Cubs, since they already expect to hit for a lot of power, so they don't need a booming bat as much as other teams.
I agree that putting him in CF is baffling, though.
Regarding the OF defense ,you might be able to test out that theory next year watching the Cubs. Schwarber is an abortion in LF so far, compare and contrast to Heyward in RF.
also, OF shifts are becoming more and more popular. That could be a HUGE benefit to the Cubs. Lets assume my previous post is correct, and they roll with Schwarber in left, Fowler (or someone else not on the team now) at center, Heyward in right. Against any righty hitter who likes to pull the ball, you know for sure that Maddon will shift the CF towards left and basically let Heyward patrol right-center. A guy with the range to be able to do that is big. It can literally improve other players defensive ratings.
I think outfield defense has historically been underrated, but agree that it seems to be slightly overrated right now. Defensive WAR seems to be a bit over blown in relation to offense.I'm not sure if I'm as big of a believer in OF defense value as some others seem to be nowadays.
I understand how having a horrible OF defender can be problematic, and somewhat negate the offense he brings to the table. But I'm not sure if there is all that much value with a great defensive OF versus an average defensive OF. And when I say "all that much value", I'm not saying it's negligible, but I'm also skeptical that an average-good hitter who plays great defensive RF is equivalent to a great-hitting, average defensive RF.
There are just aren't that many really tough plays coming to RF where a great defender will make a huge difference. It's not like 2B, SS, and 3B where there are routine opportunities to shine and take away hits.
This whole obsession with outfield defense has risen with the obsession over the WAR stat, but in reality WAR isn't as statistically correct as some may believe. When a player hits .300, it is 100% statistically correct, because that means he hit 3 times out of 10, and there's no debate about it. Wins over replacement is subjective based upon the factors being used to calculate it, but in reality that's a tough thing to accurately compute, especially when it comes to defense.
Count me as a skeptic of the big contract offered to Heyward, who has never demonstrated he can be a consistently good hitter.
Maybe a good fit for the Cubs, since they already expect to hit for a lot of power, so they don't need a booming bat as much as other teams.
I agree that putting him in CF is baffling, though.
Kevin Keirmaier is a good example. BR has him at 5 WAR on defense. That's 5 wins above average. With 2.1 WAR on offense, it makes him the 3rd best position player in the AL last year. I don't really think so. The formula is telling me that he is a full 2 wins better than Miguel Cabrera.
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