Originally Posted by
Sloppy Joe
Originally Posted by
408Mike
Originally Posted by
Sloppy Joe
First off, props to Druff for making a user-friendly forum that seems to be on the right track. I have been a reader/small time poster since NWP and am glad that the right person is back making the decisions.
I have been agnostic for as long as I can remember and have always found organized religion to be cultish and brainwashing but never was comfortable labeling myself an atheist until reading The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. Probably a moonlanding, but this book does a great job fleshing out the issues that had always hung me up from full blown atheism. After reading this book and some subsequent stuff on cosmology etc., I really don't see how any intelligent human being could partake in organized religion. I have lived in Nepal for the last year immersed in a culture of Hinduism/Buddhism and find the whole thing laughable. Are people just reluctant to admit that life has an expiration date? What the fuck is wrong with humanity waging wars over some shit some dudes threw together in books? How has the advancement of Darwinism and the EVIDENCE around the world not been sufficient to dissuade people from wasting their lives believing in fairy tale? How much more efficient and logical would the world be if the majority of humanity rejected religion?
/endrant
This is because organized religion is man made and patently false. There is a saying "The greatest threat to Christianity is the church itself". So many out there wonder about God and ask themselves what is and is not real only to be completely let down by weak corrupt and ineffective teachers. Going to church is important because of the power of fellowship and really for no other reason. The true place of worship is of course in the heart and your spoken word.
"Are people just reluctant to admit that life has an expiration date?"
Truthfully yours will if you do not accept Christ as your saviour. He and He ALONE is your path to salvation and eternal life. John 14: 6 Jesus said to him, "
I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."
"I have lived in Nepal for the last year immersed in a culture of Hinduism/Buddhism and find the whole thing laughable"
So you are an arrogant prick who spends an entire year of his life living amongst a completely foreign culture and country and the FIRST thing that comes to mind is how STUPID the people were for having culture and tradition. Gotcha.
"What the fuck is wrong with humanity waging wars over some shit some dudes threw together in books?"
Very good point. See my first response to you in this thread.
"How has the advancement of Darwinism and the EVIDENCE around the world not been sufficient to dissuade people from wasting their lives believing in fairy tale? How much more efficient and logical would the world be if the majority of humanity rejected religion?"
Oh boy this will take a while and I haven't got any left to give. Hmm let me see....How about NOWHERE in the Bible is it claimed that evolution is not responsible for life on earth as we know it today! Plain and simple. I am good friends with my Bio 001 professor and you will *Not* find a bigger fan of Darwin than him I promise you that. You want facts, he's got the damn facts and he has always been a huge atheist primarily because of the whole evolution debacle. As a biologist who earned his PhD "chasing rats in the desert" as he jokes he absolutely positively reveres evolution as a THE key fundamental driving force behind life on our planet today. In truth, I have always agreed, I never saw a reason not to. But to hear him go off at times about how annoyed he becomes that Christians or whomever denounce evolution, it makes me sad. I respect his strong personal beliefs such that I haven't ever said a word to him about the fallacy-the LIE- that he has believed for his entire life- that evolution didn't happen, the earth is x years old (interject whatever value for x it doesn't matter- point is, we dont know exactly and the true age is technically irrelevant).
It would truly be a tragedy that he spend his life not knowing nor having a relationship with God just because of a lie he has believed for years and years. I would hate to see the same thing happen to you friend. Always remember:
"In faith there is enough light for those who want to believe and enough shadows to blind those who don’t."
If you really believed God did not exist, you would never have sought Him out in the first place and, additionally, this thread would never have been created. The problem is that this world does not belong to us, it belongs to satan. Remember that. As you travel around during the day try and take notice of just how evil and satanic the world around you is. Then try and contrast the attitudes of atheists vs Christians and you may notice a few glaring details that are important- Atheists tend to hate and despise Christians and have no problem telling you as much. Why is this? If God isn't real, why do they tend to care so much? Can't blame the crusades, that went down (largely) in the 1400's (though technically went on for hundreds of years) can't blame persecution as you are 100% free to either practice faith or not. You cannot blame racial or sexual hatred cuz last I checked I had and have gay friends and we get along fine. Their lives are their choice, until someone tries to forcibly rape me (not a smart idea) I really do not care. Most Christians do not care truthfully. My closest friend is was USMC Special Forces (Recon) and is one of the most hardlining Christians you will ever meet. Yet he seems to be ok with his aunt who is a lesbian and finally getting the civil union she was wanted for years.
My point is this- If you know in your heart something is out there, waiting to be discovered, you owe it to yourself to really give 100% to the effort. Consider the consequences if you choose not to. Also take into consideration the fact that without fellowship you are completely surrounded by pro atheistic and anti-religious dogma 24.7. Not really the most conductive environment to seek out your relationship with God. I can assure you He is very real but you know that already. All living things know it, what you may choose to do is convince yourself He isn't and let your brain rationalize that choice and enjoy the rest of your life. God is a gentleman, if you ask that He remove himself from your life He will. You may not enjoy the consequences but that is your choice and your life and your free will to do so. Thus, as the saying goes, if you want to see the light enough is there to blind you and conversely, if you do not, there is enough darkness to also blind you.
Your heavenly Father respects the fact that you made an initial effort to get to know Him and wishes you to try again. You can bet on it.
If you have pertinent questions feel free to ask me here or privately. I will try and answer them as quickly as I can.
The multi-colored formatting of your response makes it difficult to provide a cogent response so I'll just rattle back to some of your thoughts. BTW, I'm not one to engage in troll battles and have always enjoyed your posting.
-I don't see how denouncing religion while living abroad makes me an 'arrogant prick'. I have a lot of respect for the richness of tradition in the Nepali culture and don't see how an absence of
belief contradicts that.
-What made you pick Jesus? There are a lot of options out there, and the Old Testament seems like a pretty heavy deterrent for one to embrace Christianity. I remember believing in God as a child only because I was scared of him and scared of going to hell. You would have to admit this isn't a healthy paradigm for a developing mind.
-Evolution really is happening/happened. I can't tell from your ramble if you know that or not but biologists have every right to mock doubters. Everything else has to be proven in this world through a scientific method, why not God? Throwing some gap in the historical record as evidence against evolution is dubious
-You made some claim like 'if you don't care then why post this'. I posted it because I think religion, belief in God has been, and will always be, a hindrance to humanity. Believing in something that is not real is your personal choice, but I have a problem with children being brainwashed at young ages to believe in fairy tale myths.
-You throw Bible quotes out, so I assume your belief is in Jesus/Bible. Google 'the myth of Osiris' for some fun. You also seem to prescribe to this modern day movement of picking and choosing what to buy into. At least the fundies are dedicated to the book.
-Look at the recent conflicts in the world today. Most stem from religious dogma interfering with common sense.
Read the book and open your mind. 'Knowing in your heart' is an insufficient rebuttal.
1- My usage of multiple colors means nothing. I used blue for my script and red for Jesus. Add in native BLACK and we arrive at a whopping three colors. Go back and read what I wrote as I showed you the respect and common decency to read exactly (word for word) what you wrote. I find it more confusing when trying to decipher quoted text if the colors are all the same. I color referenced to help you, not give you an easy out "oh I didn't read it because the colors were confusing". Come on bro. That shit doesn't fly here. We aren't in grade school.
2- I called you an arrogant prick #1 because it gets your attention (and even still you are only partially engaging me- had I said nothing to get an emotional response you probably wouldn't have bothered reading or answering at all) #2 I am quite sure living abroad has given you a vast wealth of memories and experiences which would be worthwhile to read and listen to. Instead, we get a diatribe aimed squarely at mocking the faith of others in the hopes of what, walking into this forum with all the other athests running to embrace you with arms open wide and tears in their eyes? Get real. ---READ WHAT I SAID ABOUT ATHEISTS AND HOW ANGRY AND EMOTIONAL THEY SEEM TO GET WHEN IT COMES TO CHRISTIANS AND GOD--- After you read that ask yourself something- who has made more of an issue over the whole thing? You, the atheist, or me, the Christian? Have I been starting any pro-Jesus threads lately? Shoving the Bible down people's throats? Chew on that and while you do, please share some fucking experiences and if you hate religion DON;T TALK ABOUT IT. You can talk about food and amazing wildlife without mentioning your hatred for Catholics can't you?
3- There are no other options out there. I believe in Jesus because He paid the price for all of mankind's sins (including yours)and because He rose from the dead as stated in scripture. This is significant for many reasons but I won't bore you with all of them- the most important, #1 Anyone can claim to be the son of God but only a divine miracle can validate that claim #2 Without Christ's sacrifice we would have no passage into heaven. Look it up. You are a competent reader, if you fancy yourself intelligent and open minded I challenge you to prove it. If you half ass an attempt to learn what Faith is all about but latch right onto the first smart guy who sees things going the opposite way then you are only doing yourself a disservice, not me.
4- I specifically said I believe in evolution and if you had respect for me (hard to do I imagine, what with me being "the enemy" and all) you would have read what I wrote and realized that. However, in my experience liberals tend to be the most closed minded people I come across so it's not shocking. You EXPECT me to say evolution is bogus because of one thing or another and you are COMFORTABLE as long as things go to plan but as soon as I don't say what you expected you shut down and put the walls of ignorance back up. Think about it. WHERE DID I SAY EVOLUTION IS NOT OCCURING AND HAS NOT OCCURED? MY BIO TEACHER LIVES AND BREATHES EVOLUTION AND IS A DEVOUT ATHEIST. I HAVE NEVER MENTIONED MY PERSONAL FAITH TO HIM. I SAID THESE THINGS VERBATIM, YOU CHOSE TO IGNORE ME AND NOW LOOK LIKE A FOOL.
5- You have something against the brainwashing of children-That is a fine belief to have. In fact, I would have to say I agree with you 100%.
PLEASE RE-READ (OR READ THE FIRST TIME I SHOULD SAY) THE FIRST PARAGRAPH THAT I WROTE. THE PART WHERE I SAY RELIGION IS BULLSHIT AND PATENTLY FALSE. WOULD ME DRAWING A MAP MAKE IT EFFORTLESS ENOUGH OR WOULD SCROLL UP A FEW INCHES BE TOO MUCH FOR YOU? YOU CAN DECIDE THAT ONE.
So you hate the brainwashing of children, that is fine and well- wait, why the hell did you even make this thread? Has your 4 year old sister been brainwashed recently? Crazy ex wife doing it to your children? Abused Christian children on tv all the time and you cannot take it anymore? Please elucidate your thought process for me as I am slow and it's not connecting for some reason.
While you are at it, please do describe in detail why a belief in God is a "hinderance to mankind". That right there is a pretty brash statement with a lot of emotion behind it- I am sure you must have very solid and defined reasons why you feel this way. I would like to hear your viewpoint and the reasons why you feel the way that you do . I mean that, so please enlighten me. Notice I did not ask about religion, specifically faith in God (you said those words yourself).
6- I never picked or chose one religion or another friend. I had the same arguments that you have when I was younger. I convinced myself religion didn't exist, God was not real, and trust me when I say I used that thought process to cloak my guilt while I lived my selfish life. Here is the truth- RELIGION IS BULLSHIT. Read it once or five times whatever it fucking takes to sink in. You hate religion, I am fine with that, because we are not called on by God to have denominations of one faith or another, we are commanded to get to know God developed a close and personal relationship with Him, to Love thy neighbor (which equates to each other if you get down to the nitty gritty) and honor your Mother and Father. The rest is academic brother.
7- You are demonstrating tremendous ignorance and lack of real world knowledge if you believe most recent conflicts today have anything to do with religion. Religion has been used by mankind from the get go to accomplish widespread manipulation by greedy and often tyrannical human beings. I do not deny that. But stating all conflicts today are due to religion- no, they mostly have to do with money and power, natural resources as well but in truth they fall under "power" in my opinion.
8-Google the myth of osirus? Friend, I was you at 25. Don't patronize me as if I am some dumb as a rock simpleton. That is what you want me to be, you have demonstrated this fact by lightly glossing over what I said to you earlier instead of giving my thoughts and statements respect. Respect is what I have shown you, have I not? There is nothing you have read or seen that I haven't and that's the tip of the iceburg. You managed to zero in on quite possibly the most intelligent influential and well researched atheist alive today. Unlike you however I was raised by a Marine and he taught me to always analyze your enemy, determine what their strengths and weaknesses are, and evaluate your own in direct comparison. This does not mean I find reasons to not be an atheist but quite the opposite- I worked hard for over a decade attempting to prove religion and God were bullshit and that God did not reaslly exist. Yet here I am, very happily walking the path (and stumbling along the way) and you know what? I don't regret saying religion is bullshit one bit. I do not regret saying God does not exist either. Why? Because i FOUND OUT THE TRUTH ON MY OWN, and made educated decisions along the way. I was never brainwashed and *most* importantly I KEPT MY MIND OPEN. My heart, that was another story. I am not here to talk about myself, I am hoping you actually engage me for once and listen to what I have to say. If you come away from that saying you not only don't believe you actually hate God or whatever your feelings are more power to you brother. I will pray for you and no more. But at the very least, do it for yourself so that you can walk away and never have that little shard of doubt in the back of your mind...what if Mike was right? what if...
Don't wonder- KNOW.
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