IS SEALS WITH CLUBS DONKDOWN??? (Update: Micon charged with a felony in Nevada)

[sonatine]

Article 13 provides for the seizure and surrender to the Requesting State of articles and
evidence connected with the offense for which extradition is granted, to the extent permitted
under the law of the Requested State. Such property may be surrendered even when
extradition cannot be effected due to the death, disappearance, or escape of the person sought.
Surrender of property may be deferred if it is needed as evidence in the Requested State and
may be conditioned upon satisfactory assurances that it will be returned. Article 13(3) imposes
an obligation to respect the rights of third parties in affected property.


rofl, gg micon.

[gauchojake]

Couple things:
The Spanish Prisoner is a great flick
The implications for play money poker in NV just got real.

If you give value to a virtual currency (play chips/zynga chips/bitcoin) and are raking hands, you go to jail? That's insane.

[sonatine]

Couple things:
The Spanish Prisoner is a great flick
The implications for play money poker in NV just got real.

If you give value to a virtual currency (play chips/zynga chips/bitcoin) and are raking hands, you go to jail? That's insane.

micon should have rolled with a pachinko loophole; used bitcoins to buy arbitrary tokens that could be sold at a 'third party' website for bitcoins.

[anonamoose]

Come on dude. He was running a bitcoin website not raping and murdering. He would've gotten bail and it likely wouldn't have been much. Dude overreacted when he left town. I'm not even sure why everyone is believing his story that 12 dudes with guns basically broke down his doors. There was probably two dudes. No guns. There for a couple of computers. The fuckers can't take or look for anything that wasn't on the search warrant so I don't even believe his camera was taken. There would be no reason to even have anything besides computers on an initial warrant. Dude's a clown embellishing everything seeking pity and for others to invest in his new fail site so he can steal their money now that he is out of the country.

I can't understand how reputable posters like China are hanging from his every word like a little puppy dog wanting a cookie.

This is what happened to a file hosting website:

[Reno]

[anonamoose]

A little basic math can figure some of this out.

Avg Pot x .05 x # of hands per hour x # of tables x 24 x 365

So if average pot is 7.50, 10 tables on average, 80 hands per hour we are looking at 2.6 million from cash games in a year.

Now maybe we can tweak from my numbers above to ball park actual revenue.

I think that number is super high for a couple of reasons; Seals did not average 10 tables to my knowledge. I thought the numbers we had quoted earlier were "120 people logged in", not playing. Plus thats at peak. So if we use the mean and adjust for unraked pots, I think we are looking at 5 tables average (and thats probably high), 50 raked hands an hour per, lets say average rake .20 per drop... now we have a much more realistic sounding $438,000 a year.

Rake per table per hour:
50 * .20 = $10

5 tables =
$50 per hour

24 hours a day =
$1200 a day

Apologies in advance if I'm fucking up anything obvious, I just woke up.

Speaking of which, the part that I find most telling of this whole story right now is Micon saying he left the country to spare his 2 year old the experience of living in a police state, and not to duck the absolutely happening penalty phase of the investigation.

Someone explain something to me, on that front; can the US freeze Antiguan bank accounts? I get there is no extradition treaty, but cant they just reach out and touch Micon on the bank front?

Because I dont quite understand how they are going to survive without bank accounts. No one goes far without bank accounts. Least of all when you cant caper down to the local coffee shop or sportsbook and sell a dozen bitcoins to some mope for cash to cover the months rent.

I think the most likely resolution here is that Micon will try to fight the charges from Antigua. And either he will go totally 100% flat broke in the process and fail, or he will go totally 100% flat broke in the process and at least be able to step foot in the US again legally. Every other conceivable permutation of his future involves the type of trouble none of us would laugh about.

I just want to point out that $436,000 a year with Micon owning 50% would still make him a millionaire by the end of this and I still think give him more money than most people on the board give him credit for.

[simpdog]

Is Justin Smith now in the clear for not paying Micon?

[sonatine]

I think that number is super high for a couple of reasons; Seals did not average 10 tables to my knowledge. I thought the numbers we had quoted earlier were "120 people logged in", not playing. Plus thats at peak. So if we use the mean and adjust for unraked pots, I think we are looking at 5 tables average (and thats probably high), 50 raked hands an hour per, lets say average rake .20 per drop... now we have a much more realistic sounding $438,000 a year.

Rake per table per hour:
50 * .20 = $10

5 tables =
$50 per hour

24 hours a day =
$1200 a day

Apologies in advance if I'm fucking up anything obvious, I just woke up.

Speaking of which, the part that I find most telling of this whole story right now is Micon saying he left the country to spare his 2 year old the experience of living in a police state, and not to duck the absolutely happening penalty phase of the investigation.

Someone explain something to me, on that front; can the US freeze Antiguan bank accounts? I get there is no extradition treaty, but cant they just reach out and touch Micon on the bank front?

Because I dont quite understand how they are going to survive without bank accounts. No one goes far without bank accounts. Least of all when you cant caper down to the local coffee shop or sportsbook and sell a dozen bitcoins to some mope for cash to cover the months rent.

I think the most likely resolution here is that Micon will try to fight the charges from Antigua. And either he will go totally 100% flat broke in the process and fail, or he will go totally 100% flat broke in the process and at least be able to step foot in the US again legally. Every other conceivable permutation of his future involves the type of trouble none of us would laugh about.

I just want to point out that $436,000 a year with Micon owning 50% would still make him a millionaire by the end of this and I still think give him more money than most people on the board give him credit for.

$450k a year... $150k a year to devs/sysad.. split between Micon and other guy... thats about $150k a year salary and we havent even taken into consideration advertising.

50% owner means you take 50% of the net, not gross, of course.

[gauchojake]

Couple things:
The Spanish Prisoner is a great flick
The implications for play money poker in NV just got real.

If you give value to a virtual currency (play chips/zynga chips/bitcoin) and are raking hands, you go to jail? That's insane.

micon should have rolled with a pachinko loophole; used bitcoins to buy arbitrary tokens that could be sold at a 'third party' website for bitcoins.

It just blows my mind that playing poker at Hawaiian Gardens is legal and SWC is not.

[FRANKRIZZO]

Was happy with the site being small didn't want it to grow , didn't really want affiliates. Mavens always lagged when there were over 300 people on the site plus I think wanted to keep the site obscure so wouldn't pop up on radar. Did very little to promote the site other then hats and donkdown. The site rarely had more then 300 people signed on at one time and lag was always an issue. The only times site had more people was during donkdown freeroll on wed and Decked out December and site was constantly lagging during those times.

[sonatine]

Was happy with the site being small didn't want it to grow , didn't really want affiliates. Mavens always lagged when there were over 300 people on the site plus I think wanted to keep the site obscure so wouldn't pop up on radar. Did very little to promote the site other then hats and donkdown.

excellent points. they were kinda hamstrung with maven-ware and clearly werent about to invest in a scalable solution.

that said, i had no idea there were ever that many people on the site so my $450'ish k a year number might be low by like 60%.

[Dan Druff]

Was happy with the site being small didn't want it to grow , didn't really want affiliates. Mavens always lagged when there were over 300 people on the site plus I think wanted to keep the site obscure so wouldn't pop up on radar. Did very little to promote the site other then hats and donkdown.

excellent points. they were kinda hamstrung with maven-ware and clearly werent about to invest in a scalable solution.

that said, i had no idea there were ever that many people on the site so my $450'ish k a year number might be low by like 60%.

They did invest.

There is definitely a beta of Seals 2.0. Some on 2+2 reported playing/testing it, and said it was much better than the Mavens package. I think Micon was looking at moving to Antigua when they were ready to go live with it, and then February 11th happened.

Between the affiliate payments and the investment in the software (and paying whoever helped keep it running smoothly), it had a higher overhead than people probably think.

Oh, and you have to remember that microlimit rake is far lower than rake at higher tables. I think Chinamaniac's friend who played at higher LHE tables complained about the rake because it was probably when BTC shot up, and the "max rake" became MUCH higher before they adjusted everything. Everyone mourning Seals' loss on 2+2 is gushing about how nice it was that the rake was low compared to elsewhere.

[Dan Druff]

I wonder who he had purchase his property?

Mrs Micon?


I remember seeing some real estate listing 6 months back that eluded to Micon for some 800K house in Vegas, under a different name.

That was a joke. There was a baller house in Vegas (I think $1.2 million, which buys a lot there) registered to the "Micon Trust". It was bought not too long after bitcoin spiked up.

However, it turned out that it had nothing to do with Micon. It belonged to "Michael and Michelle Conley", who had established that trust many years ago. No, it's not the same Michael Conley who plays for the Grizzlies.

Anyway, someone found that and thought it would be funny to troll PFA with it.

[Dan Druff]

The implications for play money poker in NV just got real.

If you give value to a virtual currency (play chips/zynga chips/bitcoin) and are raking hands, you go to jail? That's insane.

Not really. Play money sites and bitcoin sites are two totally different things.

Here is a snippet of the short-lived Alvin Finklestein post about the matter, from August 2014:

Why is bitcoin gambling illegal in the US? Bitcoin gambling is illegal because a bitcoin is an item with value. Not only is it widely accepted that bitcoin can be traded easily for cash, but they can also be used as currency to purchase other items (including from legitimate merchants). There is mass public awareness that bitcoin have monetary value. "We are only gambling for meaningless online tokens" is not a valid defense, as it could be proven in court that nearly every bitcoin user is aware of its monetary value. Furthermore, many bitcoin gambling sites provide tutorials on how to buy and sell bitcoins for cash, thus again making it clear that they are marketing to real money gamblers, rather than those who had obtained bitcoin through non-monetary means.

Zynga Poker (popular play money site) chips are often bought and sold for real cash. Why isn't that illegal? There are a few reasons for this. First, all Zynga Poker members can get chips for free. Second, Zynga itself does not sell the chips, nor do they take any form of rake at their poker table. The chips are sold by third parties unrelated to Zynga. Third, Zynga chips do not have any value outside of Zynga Poker itself. Fourth, Zynga does not direct any of its members to sites where chips can be bought and sold, nor does it market itself as a replacement for existing online gambling sites. Fifth, and most importantly, Zynga chips are not assumed or presented to have any value. If Zynga Poker shut down tomorrow (and confiscated everyone's chips), nobody would have any civil or criminal claim against them, even if they purchased chips from a third party. However, if a bitcoin gambling site closed shop and kept everyone's bitcoin, there would definitely be cause for a criminal investigation against them.

I'm still not convinced that the feds can legally assign monetary value to bitcoin. They already have. In July, 2013, a man who ran a bitcoin scam (and stole only bitcoins -- no cash) was arrested and charged by the SEC. This could not have been done if bitcoin were simply meaningless tokens being traded online.

[FRANKRIZZO]

excellent points. they were kinda hamstrung with maven-ware and clearly werent about to invest in a scalable solution.

that said, i had no idea there were ever that many people on the site so my $450'ish k a year number might be low by like 60%.

They did invest.

There is definitely a beta of Seals 2.0. Some on 2+2 reported playing/testing it, and said it was much better than the Mavens package. I think Micon was looking at moving to Antigua when they were ready to go live with it, and then February 11th happened.

Between the affiliate payments and the investment in the software (and paying whoever helped keep it running smoothly), it had a higher overhead than people probably think.

Oh, and you have to remember that microlimit rake is far lower than rake at higher tables. I think Chinamaniac's friend who played at higher LHE tables complained about the rake because it was probably when BTC shot up, and the "max rake" became MUCH higher before they adjusted everything. Everyone mourning Seals' loss on 2+2 is gushing about how nice it was that the rake was low compared to elsewhere.

Oh no doubt. They definitely put in a ton of work and put in a lot of functionality and upgrade on Mavens. It was still upgraded from mavens the lag and some of the bugs associated with Mavens never went away.

The new custom built software they were working on was in early beta testing and believed to have been bought from another bitcoin site that went under.

[Reno]

Not really. Play money sites and bitcoin sites are two totally different things.

Here is a snippet of the short-lived Alvin Finklestein post about the matter, from August 2014:

Why is bitcoin gambling illegal in the US? Bitcoin gambling is illegal because a bitcoin is an item with value. Not only is it widely accepted that bitcoin can be traded easily for cash, but they can also be used as currency to purchase other items (including from legitimate merchants). There is mass public awareness that bitcoin have monetary value. "We are only gambling for meaningless online tokens" is not a valid defense, as it could be proven in court that nearly every bitcoin user is aware of its monetary value. Furthermore, many bitcoin gambling sites provide tutorials on how to buy and sell bitcoins for cash, thus again making it clear that they are marketing to real money gamblers, rather than those who had obtained bitcoin through non-monetary means.

Zynga Poker (popular play money site) chips are often bought and sold for real cash. Why isn't that illegal? There are a few reasons for this. First, all Zynga Poker members can get chips for free. Second, Zynga itself does not sell the chips, nor do they take any form of rake at their poker table. The chips are sold by third parties unrelated to Zynga. Third, Zynga chips do not have any value outside of Zynga Poker itself. Fourth, Zynga does not direct any of its members to sites where chips can be bought and sold, nor does it market itself as a replacement for existing online gambling sites. Fifth, and most importantly, Zynga chips are not assumed or presented to have any value. If Zynga Poker shut down tomorrow (and confiscated everyone's chips), nobody would have any civil or criminal claim against them, even if they purchased chips from a third party. However, if a bitcoin gambling site closed shop and kept everyone's bitcoin, there would definitely be cause for a criminal investigation against them.

I'm still not convinced that the feds can legally assign monetary value to bitcoin. They already have. In July, 2013, a man who ran a bitcoin scam (and stole only bitcoins -- no cash) was arrested and charged by the SEC. This could not have been done if bitcoin were simply meaningless tokens being traded online.

And...
By LAUREN FRENCH | 3/25/14 5:24 PM EDT

The days of tax-free bitcoin are gone, at least in the United States.

The Internal Revenue Service issued clarifying guidance on Tuesday, saying digital currencies should be treated like property, meaning purchases and payments must be reported, and the capital gains tax rate can be applied to gains or losses if the currency is considered an asset....

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2014/0...#ixzz3SVPncYTL

[sonatine]

kill chain:

micon gets email confirmations of all his bitcoin transfers/transactions

NG forwards them to IRS

IRS uses them to initiate an audit

[Dan Druff]

It just blows my mind that playing poker at Hawaiian Gardens is legal and SWC is not.

I know that you're more bashing that shithole Hawaiian Gardens than making a political statement regarding Seals, but this is actually a point I'd like to discuss.

I never understood the logic of some people that unregulated, unlicensed, real money gambling sites should be legal.

No, they should not.

For every responsible operator like Pokerstars, you have 25 shady ones, such as AP, UB, Full Tilt, Lock, Cake, [insert name of scam poker site here].

The public does have to be protected from scammers/cheaters who operate gambling sites, and the only way to do that is through strict licensing and regulation, including a vetting process regarding of who is suitable to run these in the first place.

When people/companies leapfrog this regulatory process -- or when they offer the games where such a regulatory process does not yet exist -- they are knowingly breaking the law. So you can't feel sorry for them or get angry at the government when they get busted. I'm not just talking about Seals here. While Black Friday had a negative effect on me, I understood it and was not angry at the government. My only anger at the government was their feet-dragging in setting up a regulatory process for online poker (which is still very slow to this day). Honestly the existing poker sites on April 15, 2011 deserved to get busted, as they were not regulated by any responsible government body, and thus every American's money was at risk on those sites. Just because Pokerstars actually had everyone's money doesn't mean that they should have been able to be offering unregulated online gambling to Americans, while all other gaming entities in the countries like Caesars/MGM/etc had to sit on the sidelines and wait.

I could have run a bitcoin poker site. So could sonatine. So could belly buster. So could tons of other people here with some degree of technical expertise and a reasonable understanding of online poker.

We didn't do this because it's illegal and we didn't want to go to jail for it.

Was there a nice chunk of money to be made by running a bitcoin poker site? Definitely. And those involved with Seals reaped the benefits for well over 3 years. But they also took the risk in running a unregulated, real money gambling site serving US customers, so that's why they had the opportunity to go virtually unopposed competition-wise.

I liken this somewhat to the online poker payment processors. You guys probably remember when I had mega-processor Chad Elie on PFA Radio in 2013. Chad did 5 months in prison for his processing, which was actually a very light sentence compared to what he did and could have faced. But Chad knew the risks of what he was doing, and understood that the opportunity to make the huge money he did came from the extreme legal risk of his actions. While you can be angry that Chad went to jail and Howard Lederer didn't, you don't really have a right to be angry that Chad served time.

I believe all forms of online gambling, including poker, should be legal.
I believe bitcoin gambling, including poker, should be legal.

However, I also believe that these should only be legal through a strict and watchful regulatory process, and not just for whoever feels like setting up shop and claiming you can trust them.

You can be a proponent of online gambling and not be outraged when the illegal operations get nailed.

[Dan Druff]

They did invest.

There is definitely a beta of Seals 2.0. Some on 2+2 reported playing/testing it, and said it was much better than the Mavens package. I think Micon was looking at moving to Antigua when they were ready to go live with it, and then February 11th happened.

Between the affiliate payments and the investment in the software (and paying whoever helped keep it running smoothly), it had a higher overhead than people probably think.

Oh, and you have to remember that microlimit rake is far lower than rake at higher tables. I think Chinamaniac's friend who played at higher LHE tables complained about the rake because it was probably when BTC shot up, and the "max rake" became MUCH higher before they adjusted everything. Everyone mourning Seals' loss on 2+2 is gushing about how nice it was that the rake was low compared to elsewhere.

Oh no doubt. They definitely put in a ton of work and put in a lot of functionality and upgrade on Mavens. It was still upgraded from mavens the lag and some of the bugs associated with Mavens never went away.

The new custom built software they were working on was in early beta testing and believed to have been bought from another bitcoin site that went under.

I don't have any confirmation of this, but I believe the owner of the Mavens software either owned a % of Seals, or was being paid well.

He was always doing custom work for them, and they were getting all of the upgrades first.

There's no way they had such a relationship if Seals simply purchased his software for the one-time flat price of $200 or whatever.

As was already pointed out here, the fact that the Mavens software was specifically said to be left behind for Seals 2.0 shows that the developer of Mavens wanted out like everyone else, and he really wouldn't have a right to demand that if he just sold them an off-the-shelf package for a 1-time payment.

[Dan Druff]

kill chain:

micon gets email confirmations of all his bitcoin transfers/transactions

NG forwards them to IRS

IRS uses them to initiate an audit

Possible, but also very possible the IRS never sees this.

The same fears existed when the government basically seized Neteller, and when they confiscated Full Tilt in exchange for not pressing charges on most of its owners.

Government agencies, even law enforcement, tend to be very seflish and narrowly focused upon their own interests. They tend to only reach out to other agencies if they need help with something, not to voluntarily give help.

Now, there are exceptions. If they bust a child molester in California and find evidence that he molested other kids in Oregon, yes they are going to contact Oregon authorities, as well. But in cases like these, they tend to just focus on their own interest in the suspect(s) and leave the IRS out of it.

I'm not saying it's impossible the IRS will get involved, but I think it's more likely they don't.