very shady happening with bovadas payment processors

[stankmouth]

hello, im not much of a forum person, im older, have a family and stick to myself for the most part. I play poker to support my self, my wife and our 2 daughters so as u can imagine my poker income is our soul source of income. I used to play bigger games before I had so much responsibility, now I mostly just stick to mid stakes hu, and any short handed 6max games or soft high limit games if a whale is seated ect. I lost a decent amount on bf and have been scared to carry a big balance on any site, so I usually cashout very often and always once my br is above 10-15k (what I consider a comfortable roll for multitabling mids) but sometimes I would cash all but 3-5k out and just build again...building rolls from nothing is my poker roots and I very much enjoy it, even if I unlimited fund I would do this.

im just saying this so u can have aan idea of where im coming from and not some disgruntled fish just making some bs story up cuz he got waxed for his roll. I played on merge, cake/juicy, bcp ect ect..but the action at bovada seemed to be the best imo, I liked the anonymity factor and traffic was abundant compared to other sites, so I was very happy to have it as an option. have been grinding there since 2011 with plenty of swings both ways.

There were never any issues with deposits that I knew about until may of this year. I wasn't playing a lot and had cashed out most of my roll and had a few k left in my cashier, I lost that, and made a few deposit attempts and all were denied(which was strange because my bank account had plenty of funds for the requested deposit amounts to be processed) but not unheard of, sometimes the processor just cant/ wont process the deposit, its happned before so I didn't think much of it. then I was checking my bank app on my phone late in may and see multiple charges from bovadas processors which I know I never made(or got credit for) because I did make the attempts. so I contact them and they say something to the affect of "just wait, im sure they will be reversed if they weren't legit" so I figure ok cool, no worries. then 2 weeks goes by, and still no reverse. I contact them again (them being some incompetent drooler that only speaks enogh English to be condescending we get to the point where they ask me to submit bank statement reflecting the charges, and I do so, by the time I get to the bank and print up the statement there is 3 more charges on my card, which I didn't even attempt to do, since I was on hiatus till I got some resolve from the first issue at hand

so now I know something is very wrong, I submit the docs and still just keep getting the run around, "please give us 48hrs" blah blah blah...by this time my frustration level is growing because im feeling cheated and or stolen from. so now im getting generic type emails, like they copy and pasted a standard response and this is not ok with me. so I call multiple times, I finally get thru to a higher department (security) of some sort I think. I speak with a man named Emmen, (I have this conversation on speakerphone so my wife can hear the situation because by this time im literally flipping out and feel completely helpless) so I tell him whats going on and say "please just look at my balance history in my cashier, and u will see that none of the supposed deposits I made were reflected in that", he says hold on and I can hear him reading over the history and mumbling or humming to himself and when he returns he says "yes sir, there does appear to be a problem here" so im jumping for joy, so relieved and feel like im finally going to get to the bottom of this situation, he tells me "we will have this cleared up by tonite", he says can u please hold so I can talk to a supervisor.

I said sure man please do, and I said hey actually why don't u guys just spend some time on this, really figure out whats going on and please call me back, no rush. I was so elated to know that my sould source of income had not been cheating me on purpose and that they were going to clear everything up...lol I even told my wife I thought they might give me 5k or something as compensation for fucking my account off for over a month and causing me all this grief and financial loss

so like an ass im waitng for the phone call, hour goes by, then 2...then I call just to check in with Emmen, and guess what...the put me through to a different department, full close my account and they act like they've never even heard of Emmen ( I asked him for his name and correct spelling. because I didn't wanna lose this guy that had actually found and acknowledged the problem) but noway, they weren't letting me talk to him...so at this point I call my bank and dispute all charges and file a report...and guess what, there is 2 more charges from one of their payment processors from may that wasn't even on there before, keep in mind its already mid june!!!! they were adding charges that were supposedly over 45days old...I asked my banker how any of this was possible because I had requested my bank statements for may and these weren't on the statement before??? ive called back endless times, to no avail, I only get snide remarks from customer service claiming I owe them over 4k!!! honestly, the 4k isn't that big of a deal, I was even considering just "biting the bullet" and even continuing to play on bovada until the aknowledgement, and then hiding of that, and hiding and denying an employee even works there.

all I can think of is that they had some issues with processors and don't want to publicly admit it for fear of bad media or bad rumors..i know bovada isn't intentionally stealing a or teying to steal a few k from me, I know calvin is a good guy with billions...so im screwed with no options to grind now??? has this happnd to anyone else? any suggestions? I feel so handcuffed.. terrible feeling. and also wondering if this has happened before, and I just never noticed.. oh and also, now bovada claims I was playing on my birthday in may and I didn't wasn't even home, didn't play 1 hand in that week of may...

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Note from Druff: Added paragraph breaks to make more readable

[BeerAndPoker]

No offense dude but nobody is going to read one massive block of text like that.

[Dan Druff]

First off, BeerandPoker is correct. I added some paragraph breaks to your story so it can become more readable, but also using some capitalization and spacing would have made it a lot easier to digest, especially given the length of the story. Not trying to be a grammar Nazi here, but just being up front that most people won't read a giant wall of text unless it's presented in an easily readable fashion.

Anyway, I read everything you wrote. I haven't played on Bovada in a few years, but I will say that they are probably the most honest online poker company that I've used -- even more honest than Stars, who does have their occasional moments of shadiness.

Unfortunately, unlike Stars, Bovada has terrible customer support (especially by e-mail), and like you I have had cringeworthy and frustrating conversations with them.

The issue here seems to be that you're dealing with terrible support reps who are either incompetent, arrogant, lazy, or all three. There are plenty of such reps working at Bovada, especially the ones based in Manila, Philippines. The only competent reps you will get will be the ones out of Canada.

You should call back and again attempt to reach the security department. Forget about this Emmen guy. You may never find him again. Just attempt to find a Canadian (either physically in Canada or a Canadian in the Philippines) and tell him your story. Tell your story calmly, and don't overwhelm them with too much detail until they ask for it. Make sure you get a contact number or extension to reach anyone who is helpful to you.

If you can't get satisfaction, submit a complaint through eCOGRA. This is not a regulator, but more of a mediation site where Bovada has volunteered to be part of. Basically, eCOGRA mediates disputes like this, and provided Bovada handles it to their satisfaction, they get to brag that eCOGRA approves of them. I dealt with eCOGRA once in an attempt to solve a Bovada problem for another member here, and I was impressed by their objectivity and attention to detail. You can file a dispute here: http://www.ecogra.org/srs/dispute.php

Good luck, and let us know what happens.

[stankmouth]

thank you very much mr. druff. Sorry for the terrible grammar and lack of punctuation...its probably almost so bad its to the point of discrediting my intelligence I would have to admit. That's probably why I tend to stay away from forums in general, I feel inadequate...anywho, I appreciate all ur suggestions and will def keep u posted on any and all progress made in this debacle. Also at this point I'm just so sick of explaining what has happened over and over with no progress whatsoever that now I just want to put it all behind me, don't know if I could ever trust bovada again... Why cant we just play normally like the rest of the world??? Thanks again.

First off, BeerandPoker is correct. I added some paragraph breaks to your story so it can become more readable, but also using some capitalization and spacing would have made it a lot easier to digest, especially given the length of the story. Not trying to be a grammar Nazi here, but just being up front that most people won't read a giant wall of text unless it's presented in an easily readable fashion.

Anyway, I read everything you wrote. I haven't played on Bovada in a few years, but I will say that they are probably the most honest online poker company that I've used -- even more honest than Stars, who does have their occasional moments of shadiness.

Unfortunately, unlike Stars, Bovada has terrible customer support (especially by e-mail), and like you I have had cringeworthy and frustrating conversations with them.

The issue here seems to be that you're dealing with terrible support reps who are either incompetent, arrogant, lazy, or all three. There are plenty of such reps working at Bovada, especially the ones based in Manila, Philippines. The only competent reps you will get will be the ones out of Canada.

You should call back and again attempt to reach the security department. Forget about this Emmen guy. You may never find him again. Just attempt to find a Canadian (either physically in Canada or a Canadian in the Philippines) and tell him your story. Tell your story calmly, and don't overwhelm them with too much detail until they ask for it. Make sure you get a contact number or extension to reach anyone who is helpful to you.

If you can't get satisfaction, submit a complaint through eCOGRA. This is not a regulator, but more of a mediation site where Bovada has volunteered to be part of. Basically, eCOGRA mediates disputes like this, and provided Bovada handles it to their satisfaction, they get to brag that eCOGRA approves of them. I dealt with eCOGRA once in an attempt to solve a Bovada problem for another member here, and I was impressed by their objectivity and attention to detail. You can file a dispute here: http://www.ecogra.org/srs/dispute.php

Good luck, and let us know what happens.

[Sanlmar]

This is an interesting post. If this subject is important to you, a little effort is worth it BNP. Don't discourage him.

This serves as a reminder that even the perceived purest US facing site has the potential for shenanigans. Payment processing being the perpetual weak link.

Maintaining the small roll struck a chord. Always smart. However, I have been filled with the notion that as individual states go online and others pursue approval the heat will be ratcheted up on US facing sites if only to stem the competition

I do not hear this particular view repeated. Do you see the risk of legal sanction being yellow or orange - to borrow the terrorist threat levels color code?

Shortly after NJ, Rake-the-Rake shut down a lot of affiliate & referral new business & payments in ALL states. A small defensive measure - but a warning sign that I am alert to. Something that affected me personally.

We know about Merge. I am watching BlackChip & ACR. I like to play but who would put anything more than entertainment money on these sites

Bovada is the biggest & loudest. I swear I hear the sound of some Attorney General releasing the safety on his gun.

Watcha think?

[stankmouth]

Sorry but this might as well be in a completely different language lol. That's how old and out of touch with this type of community I really am. I appreciate any and all input, but u may have to use laymans terms for me to comprehend any of it...I lost u around the orange or yellow reference. i have heard that maintain a small roll is not "liked" by sites as it doesn't contribute much to their community or potential to leave my account on some massive tilt session or blow-up...I used to gamble and be very high variance, but I wasn't winning nearly as much playing that style, the only reason I keep a small roll online is because I fear waking up to D.O.J seal again. I don't think I know what u are referring too regarding merge or BCP, could you please elaborate a little. thanks again fellas

This is an interesting post. If this subject is important to you, a little effort is worth it BNP. Don't discourage him.

This serves as a reminder that even the perceived purest US facing site has the potential for shenanigans. Payment processing being the perpetual weak link.

Maintaining the small roll struck a chord. Always smart. However, I have been filled with the notion that as individual states go online and others pursue approval the heat will be ratcheted up on US facing sites if only to stem the competition

I do not hear this particular view repeated. Do you see the risk of legal sanction being yellow or orange - to borrow the terrorist threat levels color code?

Shortly after NJ, Rake-the-Rake shut down a lot of affiliate & referral new business & payments in ALL states. A small defensive measure - but a warning sign that I am alert to. Something that affected me personally.

We know about Merge. I am watching BlackChip & ACR. I like to play but who would put anything more than entertainment money on these sites

Bovada is the biggest & loudest. I swear I hear the sound of some Attorney General releasing the safety on his gun.

Watcha think?

[JimAfternoon]

You hear reports of rogue processors making unauthorized charges from time to time at all US facing rooms, but Bovada has been the best at avoiding these issues for quite a while.

Perhaps they are experimenting with new processors. Or perhaps it's something like a processor getting hacked, a disgruntled employee, etc.

Hopefully this is just an isolated incident that can be easily remedied.

[Sanlmar]

I was just commenting on only one aspect of a post from a full time grinder - YOU!

jimintheafternoon and Druff nailed it IMO.

I was just taking the opportunity to get feedback on folk's fear of shutdown as states legalize or pursue legalization. The threat increases no?

Good luck to you!

[stankmouth]

Awesome! this is what i was looking for, i didn't know that payment processors were even a weak link or that any of this was an issue aside from my case... I had kinda just made that scenario up in my head as the only viable option, since I've had 50+k on bovada and cashed it out without issue multiple times, ive never doubted the integrity of bovada...that's why I'm so confused... especially now that, ive explained the situation and i know they can clearly see that my account was never credited these "supposed deposit amounts" and then acknowledged the problem once (on speaker phone with witnesses), and then denied it... do u guys agree that they would deny this as it could be very bad for business? (I told them "I understand accidents happen" and all I wanna do is grind and put this behind us), and they still take the stance that i supposedly "played all these funds" on dates when it wasn't even physically possible. that's why im so confused/frustrated and abandoned feeling by the site that i thought would have had my back though something like this... the other thing is, all the charges were from a processor that id never seen in the past =VALEROS= or something like that, I can check my bank statement for exact spelling if need be. im mentally exhausted atm, from various other things that are going on this month, but i will get ahold of ecorga tomorrow, and hopefully get a case started and hopefully get some justice!!!! thanks again guys for the support.

You hear reports of rogue processors making unauthorized charges from time to time at all US facing rooms, but Bovada has been the best at avoiding these issues for quite a while.

Perhaps they are experimenting with new processors. Or perhaps it's something like a processor getting hacked, a disgruntled employee, etc.

Hopefully this is just an isolated incident that can be easily remedied.

[stankmouth]

Thank you sir..
yes that would make sense, as Im sure the huge corporations control the outcome of all of our fates sadly...
honestly all I wanna do is grind, securely, where i don't have to worry about my balance in my online account so I can play higher and maximize my profit and further my game...the whole state of online poker now is just making me stagnate with my progress and my finances even if i could grind on bovada....and now i don't even have that option ....I wish the big wigs would just figure out something, tax us or whatever they want to do, but let us grind ffs.

I was just commenting on only one aspect of a post from a full time grinder - YOU!

jimintheafternoon and Druff nailed it IMO.

I was just taking the opportunity to get feedback on folk's fear of shutdown as states legalize or pursue legalization. The threat increases no?

Good luck to you!

[Sanlmar]

Payment processors.

Dan Druff does a Radio Show once a week. Usually Tuesdays at 6:30pst. Usually... That's another story.

Last night he did one and I saw Chad Elie in the "chat room". The real Chad Elie? Who knows.

The best radio show Druff ever did in my opinion was his interview with the real Chad Elie - PokerStars Full Tilt processor for a time.

2 hours of Chad Elie's life story

Epic shit - especially cause it happened for real.

Gave me an education into the smarmy world of payment processing. Since then I have read almost everything I can on the subject just cause it is so damn entertaining with the millions made, lost & stolen. Rags-to-riches-to-rags stuff.

Here it is:
http://pokerfraudalert.com/forum/sho...lie-11-23-2012

I have never looked at that Deposit button the same way since.

[BeerAndPoker]

For deposits unless you are a micro stakes player who just wants to put $50 on Bovada to play you are just burning money making credit deposits on their site paying the 4.9% fee at a minimum each time and perhaps another 1-4% along with another fee for an "International Transaction" charge depending on your credit card or bank.

WU or MG are way better options if you are depositing over $300 they refund the fee either of them services use and many times they can be funded online with a debit card through one of them sites which won't charge you any fee IF you use a debit card. If you do credit you will pay like a cash advance so never use that through WU or MG but instead get the information and go to a local place to pay cash. Don't fear anything since they won't really ask you questions and if they do it's none of their business so just tell them you are paying for web design or something along those lines.

By using WU and MG you never give a rogue processor Bovada potentially might have since they are trying to get around the law your credit card and personal information.

Bovada customer support is painful to deal with because a lot of them have no authority to do anything and are just following a simple Q&A pamphlet which covers the absolute basics and nothing else. Sometimes you have to continue to hound them and they may not give you the answer you want to hear at first but be persistent with them because almost always things will get resolved in the end.

[stankmouth]

yeah I know the 5% was a pita, and I always bitched about it...but I crushed that site so fkn hard honestly I wasn't trippin, kinda just thought of it as part of the game...Im not really into standing in line at western union places, id rather just pay a few bones for the convienience...but so much for that...and that's another reason i would have considered myself an asset to the site, I have no idea how much I paid in fees, but wouldn't be surprised if it was 10k! :O and I would pay $50 multiple times a month because I would request payouts in check, wire and to be credited to my bank thru my card, so I was breaking them off tons just in fees and rake alone...I was putting in a decent amount of volume.

[JimAfternoon]

The only downside to relying on WU/MG is that you run the risk of eventually being blacklisted.

This apparently happened to me just last month, after using these services from time to time over the years. I'm not sure if I'm banned forever, but it kinda sucks that if I ever need to send or receive a WU in an emergency I might not be able to.

What I eventually did was to open a bank account that is solely for depositing on sites and cashing poker checks. I would make a deposit into that account whenever I wanted to deposit onto a site, and I wouldn't leave any additional funds in the account. That way, if a processor tried to rip me off, the card would be declined and they wouldn't have access to anything but a few dollars.

[Dan Druff]

When you submit your dispute to eCOGRA, make sure to be very clear and write everything out properly. If writing isn't your strong suit, have someone else prepare the dispute for you. Otherwise they will probably more easily dismiss it as nonsense.

BTW, I don't know how old you are, but you keep referring to yourself as "old". This forum doesn't have a particularly young demographic. I am 42, and there are plenty of people here older than me.

[stankmouth]

Haha, ok Im 36 so I consider myself old in the poker community. But good to be surrounded by some of my similar age range and generation.

When you submit your dispute to eCOGRA, make sure to be very clear and write everything out properly. If writing isn't your strong suit, have someone else prepare the dispute for you. Otherwise they will probably more easily dismiss it as nonsense.

BTW, I don't know how old you are, but you keep referring to yourself as "old". This forum doesn't have a particularly young demographic. I am 42, and there are plenty of people here older than me.

[BeerAndPoker]

The only downside to relying on WU/MG is that you run the risk of eventually being blacklisted.

This apparently happened to me just last month, after using these services from time to time over the years. I'm not sure if I'm banned forever, but it kinda sucks that if I ever need to send or receive a WU in an emergency I might not be able to.

What I eventually did was to open a bank account that is solely for depositing on sites and cashing poker checks. I would make a deposit into that account whenever I wanted to deposit onto a site, and I wouldn't leave any additional funds in the account. That way, if a processor tried to rip me off, the card would be declined and they wouldn't have access to anything but a few dollars.

I hear stories of people getting blacklisted but it's hard to say what triggers it whether it's them using WU or MG too often to deposit, for cashouts, for both depositing and cashing out, doing this on multiple sites, several transactions a week,etc...? What I am getting at is I'm not sure what triggers these blacklists or if it's just one of their shady names that gets blacklisted from using a service and they go back looking at everyone's track record that they made transactions with that person. Usually a ban is either forever or near impossible to get removed.

A separate bank account for online poker is a good idea and it not being connected in any way to your main one. The least information you have to give these sites the better.

[JohnCommode]

First of all Stankmouth, you're not old to me since I'm 65. I am truly sorry that you got knocked around a bit for your writing skills and admire the courage it took to post. The important thing is that the information was communicated to someone like Druff and just follow his usually reliable advice. I don't have to tell you that Bovada has been the most reliable of the outlaw sites for Americans to play on. If your situation is not satisfactorily corrected, what hope do American players have if we can't count on Bovada? No wonder some players have moved out of the U.S. and others are using VPNs to play on legitimate sites.

[Rapist]

My dealings with bovada had always been positive until a couple of weeks ago. When i got a call from the bank stating there there were a couple of foreign transactions that had been charged to my card. So I checked out the statement and low and behold there were four transactions made in one week ranging from 3 to 5 dollars, which looked to be from a couple of the sites shady processors. I emailed bovada informing them of the charges that i believed to be taken from my account from someone who works over there as i do not make any foreign transactions. I received a quick response about two hours later saying that the charges were foreign fees which didnt make sense since i had only made 2 prior deposits months before. So i sent them the bank statement and they didnt respond for a week after that and there really never was any resolution, all i got was a couple lousy tournament tickets. I understand that playing online poker in the us is a risk, which is why I never understood why people were keeping 6 figure rolls online. As far as depositing i would even go as far as getting a prepaid card from walmart or something and simply loading it up everytime before depositing.

[BeerAndPoker]

My dealings with bovada had always been positive until a couple of weeks ago. When i got a call from the bank stating there there were a couple of foreign transactions that had been charged to my card. So I checked out the statement and low and behold there were four transactions made in one week ranging from 3 to 5 dollars, which looked to be from a couple of the sites shady processors. I emailed bovada informing them of the charges that i believed to be taken from my account from someone who works over there as i do not make any foreign transactions. I received a quick response about two hours later saying that the charges were foreign fees which didnt make sense since i had only made 2 prior deposits months before. So i sent them the bank statement and they didnt respond for a week after that and there really never was any resolution, all i got was a couple lousy tournament tickets. I understand that playing online poker in the us is a risk, which is why I never understood why people were keeping 6 figure rolls online. As far as depositing i would even go as far as getting a prepaid card from walmart or something and simply loading it up everytime before depositing.

For people playing $5/10 they don't need a 6 figure roll online but some of them guys were playing nose bleed stakes so in order to gamble high they had to take that risk. It's the people who kept 90% or whatever of their entire net worth on a poker site that have me shaking my head face palming.