*** OFFICIAL *** Druff & Drexel Show Thread for 1/29/2013 - $61 FREEROLL - Need Guest Host

[Dan Druff]

I literally have no intention of playing Stars live events.

Also, from a legal standpoint, this is money received during the time when PokerStars was operating illegally.

It wasn't illegal for you play though, so the money was obtained legally. The DOJ allowed Stars to return these "legal" funds to players. They sent you that e-check legally. You can try to spin it any way you want, but the simple solution is "I fucked up by posting this on the Internet and now I'm going to give it back before this gets even more out of hand."

The fact that they're not even making idle legal threats to PLOL shows that even Stars knows how laughable it is that they could ever recover this money legally.

No it just shows they are trying to settle it via the easiest path. If he refuses the threats will get more implicit. Why do you think they gave him 14 days, they just pull it out of the air for shits and giggles, or because their lawyers say the person has 14 day to make restitution? Pretty sure Stars doesn't want to drag this into court, but if he continues his flippant attitude I'd gladly take that 100-1 offer he made the other day.

It's pretty standard when someone owes money: "Write to the person (or company) giving them 14 days to repay what they owe (from the date of your letter). If payment is not received within the 14 days, legal proceedings will follow. Send a Final Demand at 28 days"

They already threatened him with a consequence -- banning from their live tournaments such as the PCA.

If they had a legal threat with any teeth (or even a believable one), they would have used it already, as it would scare most people into paying the money back.

Again, he accumulated this money through play on an illegal poker site. While PLOL himself was not committing a crime by playing, Stars was committing a crime by accepting his money to gamble on their site, and therefore any wrongful acceptance of payments of winnings is NOT a crime.

This is NOT governed by the same laws that protect domestic insurance companies and banks from people intentionally profiting due to accounting errors. Those are very specific laws that were written to protect those specific industries.

There is not a single criminal law on the book, either federally or on the state level, that would allow PLOL to be prosecuted for this.

You can posture all you want about how it was a "crime", but without an actual law that he broke, it is not a crime. Furthermore, without a jurisdiction willing to enforce this law, it is also impossible for him to be prosecuted.

Civilly, Stars could in theory sue him, but it would again be a jurisdictional nightmare, and again he could make many counter-claims regarding damages against him, such as the ZOOM tournament and the FPPs. Additionally, a civil suit against a player over a matter of an erroneously-paid $1100 would be horrible PR, and they would never do this. Imagine if players got the impression that Pokerstars would sue them if they were accidentally cashed out too much? It would dissuade people from ever wanting to play there, if Stars ever became legal in the US.

I'm afraid you do not have any knowledge of these legal issues. Any criminal attorney would laugh if he were reading this.

[Dan Druff]

By the way, as current owners of Full Tilt, Pokerstars could also go after guys like Lindgren for accepting an extra $2 million that he knew wasn't his.

Are they ever going to?

No.

Why?

Because it's terrible PR, and they are in a legally dodgy situation in the first place.

If you want to lecture this kid about how what he did was morally wrong, go right ahead. You have your opinion on it, and I have mine.

However, you are attempting to scare him with factually incorrect and/or extremely unlikely legal consequences, and I hope you're just doing it for effect and not because you really believe it.

[Steve-O]

By the way, as current owners of Full Tilt, Pokerstars could also go after guys like Lindgren for accepting an extra $2 million that he knew wasn't his.

Are they ever going to?

No.

Why?

Because it's terrible PR, and they are in a legally dodgy situation in the first place.

If you want to lecture this kid about how what he did was morally wrong, go right ahead. You have your opinion on it, and I have mine.

However, you are attempting to scare him with factually incorrect and/or extremely unlikely legal consequences, and I hope you're just doing it for effect and not because you really believe it.

I don't care what he does, I'm just offering him some unsolicited advice. I've said my piece on this, and you have offered nothing but conjecture and your own highly biased beliefs. PLOL can believe who he wants, but I think anyone reading this thread understands who is looking out for PLOL and who is grinding an axe about FPP's. Unfortunately, I have a feeling I know whose advice he'll take... Think of it this way, if I'm wrong I may have overreacted; if you're wrong, well that doesn't matter because Druff is never wrong

[SpewArtist]

In any event, I offered a deal to PokerStars that involved me giving money back, but only if a large portion of the refunded money goes directly to a charity of their choosing. I am currently waiting on a response from them.

Pretty sick of PLOL, got to admire this kid's hustle.

And for everyone who is all up in arms about how ethical PLOL's actions may or may not have been,
get off your mock mountain of morality and really consider the question:

If you logged into your Pokerstars account today and there was an extra $1100 sitting there, would you hit the cash out button?

My answer, as well as all of yours (whether your capable of admitting it or not) is clearly and obviously:

[Vwls]

Haven't you fuckers ever heard of Robin Fucking Hood?

There are plenty of instances in which it is morally correct to take back some of the wealth - when the common folk are suffering or have been wronged by the establishment, etc. PLOL should demand that Stars refund the entire amount to those that were robbed by Stars, and should not return the money under any other circumstances. He then becomes a hero. Think about it before you get all high and mighty (Pooh and others).

I'd seriously like to know why you folks are so forgiving when corporations blatantly rip people off, but if an individual tries to protect their personal assets you call him a thief.

[Pooh]

Haven't you fuckers ever heard of Robin Fucking Hood?

There are plenty of instances in which it is morally correct to take back some of the wealth - when the common folk are suffering or have been wronged by the establishment, etc. PLOL should demand that Stars refund the entire amount to those that were robbed by Stars, and should not return the money under any other circumstances. He then becomes a hero. Think about it before you get all high and mighty (Pooh and others).

I'd seriously like to know why you folks are so forgiving when corporations blatantly rip people off, but if an individual tries to protect their personal assets you call him a thief.

Your history speaks for itself.

[Jasep Stole]

Haven't you fuckers ever heard of Robin Fucking Hood?
.

Umm Robin Hood gave all his money back to the poor; big difference. If PLOL gives $500 to 22Q I'm sure everyone gets off his nuts

[Dan Druff]

Haven't you fuckers ever heard of Robin Fucking Hood?

There are plenty of instances in which it is morally correct to take back some of the wealth - when the common folk are suffering or have been wronged by the establishment, etc. PLOL should demand that Stars refund the entire amount to those that were robbed by Stars, and should not return the money under any other circumstances. He then becomes a hero. Think about it before you get all high and mighty (Pooh and others).

I'd seriously like to know why you folks are so forgiving when corporations blatantly rip people off, but if an individual tries to protect their personal assets you call him a thief.

Admittedly this isn't what's exactly happening here, because PLOL is keeping the money.

But still... Stars did steal from him beforehand. They did it through FPPs. They sort of did it by running a faulty tournament for over $1000 buyin and not compensating people properly after admitting the tournament was unfair.

I believe you should NEVER return money that a thief accidentally gives you, unless there's some legal consequence for it.

You should never go to a thief and say, "Hey, I'm not supposed to have this money. You take it back."

The most moral thing to do is to re-distribute it to the victims.

The second-most moral thing to do is to donate it to a worthy charity (but NOT a charity to where the thief gets any credit for the donation).

Keeping the money yourself isn't quite as moral, but it's still a hell of a lot better than giving it back to the thief, especially if the thief has stolen from you in the past.

[simpdog]

So Druff, Vwls...hypothetical situation here

1. Assume pstars stole from people for the Zoom tourney + fpps + etc

2. Assume PLOL received 1100 from them

3. Assume PLOL was part of Jasep's BAP for $1100

4. Assume Jasep pays EVERYONE back (and I mean 22q, all bap investors etc)

....BUT he has $1100 left in paypal that should be going to PLOL.

Would you be okay if Jasep just didn't pay back PLOL since PLOL stole 1100 from pstars?

[Dan Druff]

So Druff, Vwls...hypothetical situation here

1. Assume pstars stole from people for the Zoom tourney + fpps + etc

2. Assume PLOL received 1100 from them

3. Assume PLOL was part of Jasep's BAP for $1100

4. Assume Jasep pays EVERYONE back (and I mean 22q, all bap investors etc)

....BUT he has $1100 left in paypal that should be going to PLOL.

Would you be okay if Jasep just didn't pay back PLOL since PLOL stole 1100 from pstars?

No, because PLOL basically rolled Stars in response to them rolling him and others.

However, let's say PLOL rolled another user on this forum, such as you.

If Jasep wanted to give PLOL's money to you (provided it was proven that PLOL really did roll you), I wouldn't have a problem with that.

PLOL is basically saying to Stars, "You rolled me, you rolled everyone else in the US, now you made a mistake which allowed me to roll you for $1100, so fuck you."

I agree with that statement, for the most part.

[Pooh]

Druff,

Lets say you're following somebody you've never seen before and you watch them drop 10k by mistake. There is a zero percent chance anyone else but you saw this so getting caught is not a worry. What do you do? VWLs, what do you do?

[Dan Druff]

Druff,

Lets say you're following somebody you've never seen before and you watch them drop 10k by mistake. There is a zero percent chance anyone else but you saw this so getting caught is not a worry. What do you do? VWLs, what do you do?

I don't see the point of this question. Probably to set me up for some sort of moral lesson, comparing the Stars situation to this obvious one.

I will answer it anyway.

I would tell the person they dropped 10k and hand it to them.

However, if this person had stolen from me in the past (and still not made it right), I would take the 10k. What I would do with it at that point is something I would have to think about, but I would not give it to them.

[Pooh]

Druff,

Lets say you're following somebody you've never seen before and you watch them drop 10k by mistake. There is a zero percent chance anyone else but you saw this so getting caught is not a worry. What do you do? VWLs, what do you do?

I don't see the point of this question. Probably to set me up for some sort of moral lesson, comparing the Stars situation to this obvious one.

I will answer it anyway.

I would tell the person they dropped 10k and hand it to them.

However, if this person had stolen from me in the past (and still not made it right), I would take the 10k. What I would do with it at that point is something I would have to think about, but I would not give it to them.

I'm not trying to set you up for anything. I just want to know how your mind works. I would never take the money though. If they were a thief I'd let someone else take it.

Lets say for arguments sake Bernie Madoff was out of jail and walking down the street. One of his victims robbed him. What should happen?

[Dan Druff]

I don't see the point of this question. Probably to set me up for some sort of moral lesson, comparing the Stars situation to this obvious one.

I will answer it anyway.

I would tell the person they dropped 10k and hand it to them.

However, if this person had stolen from me in the past (and still not made it right), I would take the 10k. What I would do with it at that point is something I would have to think about, but I would not give it to them.

I'm not trying to set you up for anything. I just want to know how your mind works. I would never take the money though. If they were a thief I'd let someone else take it.

Lets say for arguments sake Bernie Madoff was out of jail and walking down the street. One of his victims robbed him. What should happen?

Unfortunately there is sometimes a difference between the letter of the law and what SHOULD happen ethically/morally.

Ethically I would applaud the victim for robbing him.

Legally the victim would probably get in trouble.

However, sometimes exceptions are made in such situations, such as the recent story where a former child molestation victim tracked down his molester in a retirement home, beat him up, and was ultimately found not guilty, despite admitting to beating the guy.

[Pooh]

I'm not trying to set you up for anything. I just want to know how your mind works. I would never take the money though. If they were a thief I'd let someone else take it.

Lets say for arguments sake Bernie Madoff was out of jail and walking down the street. One of his victims robbed him. What should happen?

Unfortunately there is sometimes a difference between the letter of the law and what SHOULD happen ethically/morally.

Ethically I would applaud the victim for robbing him.

Legally the victim would probably get in trouble.

However, sometimes exceptions are made in such situations, such as the recent story where a former child molestation victim tracked down his molester in a retirement home, beat him up, and was ultimately found not guilty, despite admitting to beating the guy.

One last question:

FREE JEWDONK?

[Pooh]

Confirm or deny, 7 series?

[Dan Druff]

Unfortunately there is sometimes a difference between the letter of the law and what SHOULD happen ethically/morally.

Ethically I would applaud the victim for robbing him.

Legally the victim would probably get in trouble.

However, sometimes exceptions are made in such situations, such as the recent story where a former child molestation victim tracked down his molester in a retirement home, beat him up, and was ultimately found not guilty, despite admitting to beating the guy.

One last question:

FREE JEWDONK?

Can't do that.

Every time I unban Marty here, it becomes a spectacle.

Some of it isn't his fault (because people troll him), but a lot of it is (because he has a hard time just blending in and not being the center of attention).

I unbanned his IP awhile ago, though, so he does lurk here.

[Steve-O]

But in this case you only "feel" you have been slighted by Stars, other people applaud them for paying anything on FPPs which they were not obligated to do. Stars did not "steal" from, you feel slighted by them, big difference.

Suppose a store never delivers your furniture, and you asked for $2,500 for the furniture and $500 for your wasted day waiting for them. The judge awards $2,500 and the store sends you $2,700, because they feel bad you wasted a whole day: should we steal from this store because they didn't reimburse as much as you wanted?

[NaturalBornHustler]

Confirm or deny, 7 series?

No way Druff is dropping 75-90k on a vehicle. He said he bought it brand new so that is what it would be. Or more.

5 series is the massive favorite, 3 series too small with the kid factor.

5 series looks waaay better than the 3 IMO too.

I'm going with a 2012 535i that had about 500 miles from test drives and was sitting on the lot they were trying to get rid of at end of year. He probably got a great deal well under MSRP.

Just my read.

[Dan Druff]

But in this case you only "feel" you have been slighted by Stars, other people applaud them for paying anything on FPPs which they were not obligated to do. Stars did not "steal" from, you feel slighted by them, big difference.

Suppose a store never delivers your furniture, and you asked for $2,500 for the furniture and $500 for your wasted day waiting for them. The judge awards $2,500 and the store sends you $2,700, because they feel bad you wasted a whole day: should we steal from this store because they didn't reimburse as much as you wanted?

The other people applauding them for paying FPPs are idiots. Stars reps made very clear posts prior to Black Friday that FPPs were their version of rakeback, and that they had value.

Stars even proved they had value by agreeing to pay out FPPs as part of their initial deal with the DOJ.

They never provided an answer as to why it was okay to keep "remainder" (1-2499) FPPs, other than a complete bullshit answer that the DOJ forced them to do it that way.

Besides, sometimes you have to go by "feel" in life, and not by the letter of the law.