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Thread: Crypto-based Phenom Poker claims to be revolutionary and "trustless" -- but is it?

  1. #21
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    I believe your analysis is 100% correct.

    My thought when I read about the change in the first part of your post was, "I bet they've gone broke", and sure enough, you then went on to state yourself that you heard they're broke.

    The USDT needs to come from somewhere, and I have a feeling it was from Valeo himself (or whatever storage he designated specifically for Phenom). If Valeo needed the USDT for living expenses or whatever, then this "change" was required.

    This is a major difference, as you went from holding an asset with direct trade-in value based upon the company's very short term success to an asset which is only worth what people would pay for it.

    I have to imagine there's going to be a sell-off as soon as it's allowed, so be ready for that.

    Unfortunately there's little that can be done, and this whole thing is too complicated for the average person to understand, so it's difficult to whip up outrage online about it. This is especially true because this is a form of rakeback.

    You still hold your own crypto when you play on there (aside from when you're at the table), right?

  2. #22
    Bronze SpewArtist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    I believe your analysis is 100% correct.

    My thought when I read about the change in the first part of your post was, "I bet they've gone broke", and sure enough, you then went on to state yourself that you heard they're broke.

    The USDT needs to come from somewhere, and I have a feeling it was from Valeo himself (or whatever storage he designated specifically for Phenom). If Valeo needed the USDT for living expenses or whatever, then this "change" was required.

    This is a major difference, as you went from holding an asset with direct trade-in value based upon the company's very short term success to an asset which is only worth what people would pay for it.

    I have to imagine there's going to be a sell-off as soon as it's allowed, so be ready for that.

    Unfortunately there's little that can be done, and this whole thing is too complicated for the average person to understand, so it's difficult to whip up outrage online about it. This is especially true because this is a form of rakeback.

    You still hold your own crypto when you play on there (aside from when you're at the table), right?

    You hold it yea, well they say you hold it anyway. I'm not smart enough to dig into all the blockchain shit and see if you actually do.

  3. #23
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    He claims you couldn't get USDT for the PHNM token.


  4. #24
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    He's bamboozled poor Brian Rast.

    https://twitter.com/tsarrast/status/2008412033021038777

    Phenom is implementing some changes. I want everyone to know that this was discussed quite a bit internally before the announcement. This post is not about the details of those changes. You can get that from Phenom’s Twitter account or elsewhere. This is about my experience and perspective as someone involved on the inside.

    When Matt, the CEO, called me to discuss it, he had a real problem to solve. The current treasury redemption model has people redeeming tokens every week, which pulls money out of the company that could otherwise be used to grow the site.

    He presented a few ideas. One was tying rewards to staking, with increased rakeback for those who stake. The other was moving from a treasury redemption model to a free market token price model.

    My gut reaction was mixed. I liked the staking and rewards changes. I didn’t like the token model change. It felt like we were going back on the idea that the Phenom token was a crypto token done right.

    And honestly, I’d guess many of you are having the same initial reaction I did.

    That reaction kicked off nearly a two hour call with Matt. Longer than I wanted, especially since I had an early flight the next morning. But this was something I felt I needed to fully understand. Over the course of that call, I changed my mind. And in the days that followed, the more I thought about it, and the more I talked with others involved in Phenom like Huck and Alec, it became clear to me that the most important change here was not the staking/rewards but was moving from a treasury exchange model to a free market token model.

    The company currently has a problem with variable, random token redemptions coming out of the 50 percent of rake allocated to the treasury. Matt even recently had to sell tokens below market value to raise treasury funds. I know because I bought some. That alone highlights the issue.

    But to me, the bigger problem is that the treasury redemption model is fundamentally illiquid. Many people have not been able to redeem as many tokens as they want week to week, because the only buyer is the treasury, and the treasury can only allocate a limited portion of weekly rake to redemptions. Anyone who thinks about basic free market economics for more than a minute can see that having a single buyer with capped funds is not an efficient or healthy system.

    While having a fixed token price tied to the last four weeks of rake sounds nice, I don’t think that benefit is worth draining the company of reliable weekly income while also creating severe illiquidity. In my view, this problem only gets worse over time and would eventually create reputational issues for Phenom.

    The only real solution is moving to a free market token model on an exchange. Importantly, how the token is bought or sold is not what gives it value. The Phenom token is not valuable because it can be redeemed from the treasury. It is valuable because supply is capped and staking allows participation in 50 percent of the rake the company collects. The token represents ownership in the revenue stream of the business. That has not changed.

    As long as the site operates, poker is played, and rake is collected, the token has value. And token holders should want treasury funds to be used to grow the site, so more rake is generated and distributed, rather than having the treasury act as the sole buyer of tokens.

    I do realize this change could cause volatility early on. It may unlock sellers. But it also unlocks buyers. Now anyone can buy Phenom tokens at any time. Who might want to do that? Crypto investors and traders who look for projects with real revenue and alignment.

    All wallets are visible on-chain. I plan on locking all my tokens. Matt is doing the same, as are all the other people involved with the project I’ve spoken to at this point. I’m excited about the longer lockups and the ability to earn even more revenue than before. Either the site succeeds or it doesn’t. That was always true. And that outcome has nothing to do with whether tokens are redeemed through a treasury or sold on the market.

    One of the prime reasons I got involved with Phenom in the first place is alignment. The site is aligned with the players. This change is not bad for players. Despite my initial knee jerk reaction that it was, I now believe it is necessary for the long term health of the project.

    The Phenom token is different because it is actually necessary. It is the mechanism for distributing rakeback. It is ownership in the revenue the company produces. Moving from a fixed-price sole-redeemer system to a free market system should improve liquidity and overall token health.

    There is a good chance that eventually the market prices the token higher than the current treasury formula, which is effectively about ten times annual revenue. Early stage growth companies often trade well above that.

    That is not why this change is happening though. It is happening because it solves real liquidity problems created by a system that was originally designed due to concerns about the token being a security. With those concerns gone, there is no reason to continue handicapping the growth of the site.

    There is also a decentralization issue. One of Phenom’s long term goals is for token ownership to come with increasing voting rights as the site matures. That requires broader token ownership. A system where the treasury is the primary buyer and tokens flow back to the company does not promote decentralization. A free market does.

    Wrap up:

    Change is uncomfortable, especially when it touches something people care about. My job here is not to sell anyone on short term price action. I don't know how that will look.
    It’s to be honest about what happened.

    I believe these changes give Phenom the best chance to succeed long term. After being deeply involved in these discussions, I believe this change strengthens the project, aligns incentives better, and gives Phenom a real shot at becoming what it set out to be.

    The responses have not been kind.



    Am I missing something here? Isn't shifting to a free market system counting on rake back grinders to either a) hold a substational portion of their profits (bankroll) in effective stock (coins) or b) drive the stock (coins) down so low due to player illiquidity (dumps) that the general crypto space will **hopefully** speculate & provide support?

    I think you did a great job of laying out the rock and hard place that phenom finds itself in, but i also think this was somewhat predictable & why most poker sites, new and established alike, have strong referral/rake back programs which they chalk up to both acquisition & retention costs. Pushing that volatility onto the player pool seems like a death sentence. End of the day the most crucial metric is site volume & I fail to see how this is player friendly (compared to the old model or traditional fixed RB models).
    My answer to Berkey:





    Jason Mo also responded but it was deleted for some reason.

  5. #25
    Diamond garrett's Avatar
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    remember seeing lots of ads with Viktor Blom for Phenom also (is he like Rast a player/owner also)

  6. #26
    Bronze SpewArtist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    He claims you couldn't get USDT for the PHNM token.

    It was a main function on the site. There is a "redeem" tab. It's still there. And still says 1 PNHM = $1.65

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    I think he's just using semantics saying it wasn't ever directly paid in USDT.

  7. #27
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Jason Mo and Haralabob are getting involved in making fun of them now.

    How embarrassing for the pros who are associated with them.

    https://twitter.com/cuntycakes123/status/2008594327409447069

    https://twitter.com/haralabob/status/2008598391492673657

    Can someone explain why it was necessary to create a token at all? Why not simply use USDT or USDC, allowing users to deposit dollars into a vault and earn a percentage of the rake generated while their funds are staked?

    You could require a 24-hour lockup before withdrawals to manage liquidity. Instead, it feels like the system was unnecessarily overcomplicated by introducing a token that very few users will actually want to hold.

    If the real goal was to build a poker platform, the focus should have been on poker, not on creating a token.

    https://twitter.com/haralabob/status/2008600198109700296

  8. #28
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    The funny thing is that everyone messaging me about the site says they enjoy it.

    People like the software, the games, and the general vibe of the whole thing. In those ways it exceeded my expectations by a wide margin.

    However, looks like they are running it into the ground Full Tilt style. It's not like it's hard to give cash/USDT rakeback. Just fence off whatever portion of rakeback you are planning to give, and then send it. It's not rocket science. The needlessly complicated token and player ownership model is being used to hide that people are being fucked out of this.

    It's especially bad because people were encouraged to hoard the tokens, and now are being told they can't cash them out.

    Oh, and laughably, despite everyone supposedly being "owners", nobody ever got to vote on this idiotic scheme. Seems like Matt Valeo decided mostly on his own, after consulting with Brian Rast and a few other of their ambassadors.

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Valeo responded to this guy by saying to DM him.

    So if you have tokens stuck on the site, you can probably get special treatment right now by being the squeaky wheel. Or at least that's my assumption.

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  11. #31
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Okay now this is actually funny.

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  12. #32
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Matt Valeo appeared on Omar's X Spaces tonight.

    I wasn't around to hear it, though it was recorded and someone is going to send it to me.

    Omar and another guy summarized it for me. I'm posting this based upon what they described.

    I was told that Matt said the plan going forward was as follows:

    1) All ambassadors are going to lock up their tokens for 2 years. SrslySirius looked at the blockchain and concluded (probably correctly) that the top 50 token owners held 95% of the tokens, and Matt claimed that he got the "top 60" to agree to lock them.

    2) Future rakeback will be paid in USDT, and will no longer earn tokens from their play.

    3) Non-ambassadors holding existing tokens will have to sell them on the open market when that structure is complete.


    Here's the big problem: The tokens were last selling at $1.65 each. There's no way they're going to sell for anywhere near that on the open market, especially after this whole mess. It's very possible that the PHNM token will go down to pennies (or maybe even less than 1c), which essentially rugs everyone still holding tokens.

    Matt's theory is supposedly that getting the top 60 holders to lock their tokens, it will create scarcity and thus drive up the price, but I don't believe it. I just don't think there is much of a demand for the PHNM token, nor will there be anytime in the near future (or perhaps ever).


    A telling tweet came from Chris Hunichen, who is one of the ambassadors:




    The price was solely based on the 4 week rolling rake average. The price didn’t and wasn’t ever going to move based on people selling the token. That was one reason they wanted to try this model in the first place. The issue is the early investors and ambassadors that would sell weekly draining the treasury. Phenom already gives 50% of the weekly rake to the players in revenue share. So the other 50% needs to be used to cover expenses for the site and to help improve the site. But instead most of it was going to buying the tokens in the treasury. As a player and token holder who basically owns a piece of the company, would you prefer the money go to buying up tokens or improving the site to be one of the best sites around to play on? It was clear this model wasn’t sustainable, but finding the solution is difficult.

    The bolding was mine, but is the most important part. Hunichen admits that the big token holders ("early investors" and ambassadors) were selling off their tokens back to the Phenom treasury, and taking USDT in exchange, essentially draining all of the site's funds.

    Now they're putting a stop to that, but it looks like a shitload of damage was done.

    This isn't too different than what happened to Full Tilt in 2010-2011, when site pros were receiving large payouts despite Full Tilt losing a lot of money every month for various reasons. In Full Tilt's case, they dipped into player bankrolls and exhausted it all. In Phenom's case, they dipped into player rakeback funds and exhausted it all.

  13. #33
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    I appeared on Spaces and gave my own opinion.

    They need to make the existing token holders whole -- at least the ones who earned them from poker play. They can only do this by letting these players sell their tokens to the site for $1.65 -- the last price paid for them.

    I realize the site doesn't have the money to cover this right now.

    They need to enact a plan where a fund is established to pay back existing token holders, where X% of the rake is earmarked to cash out tokens each week, and keep doing that until everyone is made whole. They can do this by allowing token redemptions up to a certain amount each week.

    They cannot simply transfer the shortfall to the open market and hope that takes care of things. They're essentially treating the open market as the equivalent of bringing in outside investors to bail them out, but this is much worse because the outside investors are only going to buy them for a bargain at this point.

    If they do not take care of the existing token holders, Phenom will likely collapse. Players will get demoralized and quit, and the place will become a ghost town.

    This is their one and only chance to make things right.

  14. #34
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    I do want to give credit to SpewArtist for bringing this to our attention.

    Phenom's January 3rd tweet was mostly ignored, and the few people complaining in the discord were being shouted down. This was going to fly under the radar, until SpewArtist brought it to me, and I made it public.

    This became the biggest story on poker Twitter today, and it's all because of us. That's a good thing, as now players are aware of what is really going on.

    Hopefully Phenom will learn from this, and will do the right things to recover and make everyone whole. Pie-in-the-sky hopes regarding the token's value on the open market ain't it.

  15. #35
    Bronze SpewArtist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    I do want to give credit to SpewArtist for bringing this to our attention.

    Phenom's January 3rd tweet was mostly ignored, and the few people complaining in the discord were being shouted down. This was going to fly under the radar, until SpewArtist brought it to me, and I made it public.

    This became the biggest story on poker Twitter today, and it's all because of us. That's a good thing, as now players are aware of what is really going on.

    Hopefully Phenom will learn from this, and will do the right things to recover and make everyone whole. Pie-in-the-sky hopes regarding the token's value on the open market ain't it.

    Thanks Druff, but my motives were mostly self-centered. I was pissed off because I earned that rakeback honestly and thought that they should honor it. And mostly yea, I wanted to be paid the money I was owed. I'm a guy that mainly just lurks around on social media and doesn't like confronting people and what not. Because of this I was hesitant to go into discord or twitter and voice my concerns, even though I felt I had been wronged.

    Druff is the real MVP here. He had no dog in this fight and went to bat with people on twitter for 3 days straight. Tweeting himself, and tweeting directly at people involved, asking questions over and over again to people that didn't want to answer them, and he took a lot of flack doing it too. Nobody knew about this, or understood it, and if they did, they weren't saying anything. Because of him, the story blew up and eventually myself and many others were paid.

    So props to Druff for all the help.

     
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  16. #36
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Thank you. I do find it amusing that nobody realizes that PFA was the entity which brought this to the public's attention. But that's okay. I do this to help people get what is rightfully owed to them, not for clout or credit.

    I am seeing a lot of bad takes on X defending the change because it's the "best for Phenom going forward".

    I disagree that this new approach is "best", but I'll agree it's better than before, and might be viable long term.

    However, that's only 50% of the issue. The other 50% -- and the more important part -- is not fucking over the existing players holding tokens. Their initial plan (before I spoke up) was to simply convert it into an open market redemption, where players were likely to get only a tiny fraction of the past rakeback they rightfully earned.

    Now it seems they've opened up cashing again (though I'm not sure what rate they're giving), so hopefully everyone who wants to convert their tokens into cash can do so. Once that fully occurs, they are free to try whatever new scheme they want, and anyone continuing to play is basically accepting the new terms and can't complain if it ends up sucking.

    So maybe they raised some $$$ to pay off the existing token holders, and if that does result in everyone getting paid, then we have a happy ending here, at least for now.

  17. #37
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    According to Valeo, they've paid out $75k so far to token holders. Still not sure at what rate,.

    They've got a long way to go, but it's also possible that some (or a lot) of people will choose to just hold their tokens, so they really only have to pay those who state that they want to be cashed out now.

    I offered that I would make a tweet of praise if they either pay everyone or set up a coherent plan to get everyone paid in the short term. And by "everyone", I mean the non-ambassadors who want immediate cash payment for their past-earned rakeback. I also offered that if this occurs, I will additionally tweet positively regarding the software and game selection, which everyone seems to like.

    Valeo seems to think I am being "negative" about his site, but I'm trying to be fair here. If I were being negative, I wouldn't offer to tweet positively once this was resolved. I just want to see everyone made whole like SpewArtist was. Once that occurs -- or seems to be on the way to occurring -- then we have met a happy ending to the story.

    The new plans going forward are not my concern, and provided the users understand them, it doesn't matter if those plans are good or bad.

    I don't believe this is an intentional fraud or rugging. It occurred due to mismanagement, followed by an ill-advised attempt to pass off the problem onto the "free market", but at least it seems they have realized this isn't a good thing to do, and are backing away from it.

  18. #38
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    The token being valued at $1.6 - $2 is completely absurd, implying a market cap close to $100,000,000. Their revenue (not profit!) is like $5-7m per year. I fully expected the Phenom token to crash to about $0.20 once listed on open exchange. So I made an open request to the ambassadors to let me short it. Rast seemed to tentatively accept

    https://twitter.com/tsarrast/status/2008704681133191272

    A short time later, I heard Matt Valeo on Twitter Spaces talking about how he approached the top 60 wallet holders and got most of them to commit to staking their tokens (thus locking them up and not selling for a long time).

    This made me curious about how much of the supply that would lock up, so I checked the blockchain:

    https://twitter.com/SrslySirius/status/2008792640322674893

    So the top 60 wallets hold 48.4 million tokens. That leaves only 1.6 million to the regular players. I had no idea it was this out of whack. Phenom claims on its website that 50% is supposed to go to its players. But it seems to be almost entirely owned by investors/ambassadors/ownership, with the little guy getting 3%. This also answers the question of why there wasn't any vote on these changes, it wouldn't have made any difference.

    I'm much less confident in shorting the token now, because with so few tokens liquid, it wouldn't take much money to prop up the price. I think that is what the investors are going to have to do, because if the price of the token tanks, that reduces a lot of incentive for players to grind. It would then just become a regular low-traffic poker site, and that traffic probably reduces even further.

  19. #39
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    I was about to echo your request to short it, but I thought of exactly that -- what if only a small number were available, and they could manipulate the price to make a profit off me. So I didn't offer, since too much was in their power.

    I actually think it would have dropped lower than $0.20 had the "open market" plan been used to dispose of existing rakeback-earned tokens. I thought it would probably fall to the single-digit cents. But that's just a guess.

    A $100m valuation for the company is hilarious. Zero point zero chance it's worth anywhere near that.

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    My feeling toward this site has gone from:

    - They're misguided and terrible at PR, but harmless. As long as people control all their own funds, nobody is being hurt

    to

    - This is starting to look scammy and deceptive, promising tons of revenue sharing but lying about distributions, in order to encourage more volume

    In my opinion, that's not all that different from what PokerStars did with their SNE rugpull

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