Results 1 to 20 of 20

Thread: Vanessa Kade is "taking some time off social media" because she feels she's been a victim of sex-based discrimination in poker

  1. #1
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
    Reputation
    11317
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    59,777
    Blog Entries
    2
    Load Metric
    113869329

    Vanessa Kade is "taking some time off social media" because she feels she's been a victim of sex-based discrimination in poker

    https://twitter.com/VanessaKade/status/1958688240535547956

    I also am contemplating my future here, and have been for a while. The haters gonna love this post but I honestly don't care.

    When I first started playing, I was so full of passion I couldn't get enough. I was playing low stakes cash games with such drive that this is in no way an exaggeration, I was playing probably an average of 15 hours a day, for 4 years, missing literally less than a week in a full year (from traveling or illness). I couldn't get enough, and despite not being studied in any way, betting all the wrong sizes and intuitively playing a pure explotative / live read game still somehow was winning right from the start. I'm incredibly competitive and winning consistently just fired me up more. I would wake up in the evening and my first thought would be to immediately head to the casino where I would play until sunrise, and rinse and repeat for over 4 years. Every day, same thing. I Ioved it. I played in some incredibly hostile rooms (low stakes games are particularly the worst for this), but also the people who are socially the worst are often the biggest losers and women are often the easiest target - especially if you're beating them and they're angry - so you have a lot of incentive to just tolerate things or diffuse situations, but even with a thick skin this eventually wears on your and feels heavy. Being called a b*tch or c*nt and worse for doing nothing but winning pots ultimately caused me to just wear headphones and become incredibly antisocial for a period, where I continued playing refused to talk to anyone.

    I've always felt like a bit of an outsider (and have heard this sentiment echoed by other women), where we are not as easily or at all accepted into the higher quality group improvement cliques that are formed where everyone who participates ultimately help each other. I've never used this as an excuse and have basically lone-wolfed my career for all 10 years to this point without complaint, despite knowing my progress is slowed or ultimately capped by not having access to the full range of communal resources. These groups exist where young men in their early 20s who display intelligence and drive and are taken under someone's wing and backed just aren't available in the same way if you're a woman.

    I never let that stop me and still managed a moderate level of success that granted me at least a little bit of a voice, which I tried to use to bring visibility to things like treatment of women in low stakes (attempting to put a lot of pressure on casinos for their floor staff and dealers to step up intervention when someone is being bullied and there is a power imbalance that causes the targeted party to be unable to stand up for themselves) - something that sours initial experiences for new players since most of us start in low stakes where egos are most fragile and players are most volatile which ultimately turns a lot of women away. I tried to draw visibility to the lack of effort into attracting women into the game despite them being the largest completely untapped demographic. Discrepancy in compensation for sponsored female players - to this date the highest paid female sponsored player I am aware of was somewhere around the $350k/y, while the highest paid male gets $1.2M/MONTH last I heard (more now as I understand it). And while no one would argue the top men CLEARLY have much greater reach and influence, it is so laughably out of proportion for their relative marketing value (14.4M a year vs $350k - even if the top women only have 10% the exposure, that number should still be more like 1.4M/y) AND they're appealing to audiences with potential for massively more growth, where every 30-40 year old white male they add to the roster is just overlapping with representation which I'm sure carries significant diminishing returns.

    I personally gave up a career defining position where I could have played fully backed nose bleed high rollers (50k+) and was positioned to skyrocket to make a name for myself, all because I had an ethical problem with the company being disingenuous even though I knew full well I would likely not get those opportunities to launch into the top ranks ever again. I've spoken out against prominent ambassadors who were openly misogynistic and harmful to the disappointing perception and respect shown towards women in our industry, and again got monetarily punished for it.

    It is also significantly more difficult to find higher stakes backing, especially if you refuse any deal with unsavory strings. Vanessa Selbst herself spoke about how one of the major reasons she quit was that she couldn't get backing. Women are by default simply seen as not as skilled, and lack the connections because of being on the outside of the communities. Some of the few women I know who have gotten high level backing is in whole or part through connections with their romantic partners who are part of those same networks we're often excluded from, a couple without those ins but not many.

    Again, this is not an excuse (as I have successfully chugged along for 10 years mostly as a lone wolf), just an acknowledgement that there are so many hurdles that make things so much harder.

    In one case when I had a sponsorship I had a fellow ambassador I'd never even interacted with repeatedly attacking me unprovoked over a course of a year despite being told multiple times to stop, and after ignoring much of it when I finally defended myself, somehow come off as looking just as bad as him when he was the instigator and attacker in every single case.

    Some of these guys say unimaginably vile things on the regular, publicly, on all kinds of topics, with no consequences whatsoever to their partnership prospects, and are effectively untouchable. But women do not carry this immunity - when women diplomatically express reasonable opinions, flag issues, or defend themselves, correct lies that have been levied against them, or participate in public discussions they are labeled as obnoxious, annoying, "the problem" or just as bad as the men acting atrociously.

    At the end of the day, if you want to be a successful woman in poker, the only way is to play the game: keep your opinions to yourself, and be thin, young and attractive, and post cleavage shots, or in a couple cases I like better - make sincerely funny content. We don't actually really reward women to the same degree for developing skill or finding success or getting big scores as players and I find this incredibly depressing. If I played the game where I only posted tastefully sexy photos and kept my mouth shut I would be light-years ahead in terms of sponsorship / partnership income and public approval, and it's incredibly depressing. I even tried that avenue briefly years ago and just felt icky about it and that it was not authentically me.

    Simultaneously the personal cost for being outspoken has been life-alteringly high, and I often do not feel as though I've made almost any impact on the things I was trying to change for the better.

    I could double down and pour myself into improvement and grinding. I could stay and play the game as they want (leave the discussions to the men, keep my opinions to myself, and exclusively post poker results and selfies), or I could consider a bigger life change out of poker.

    I am not sure what is next, but I am disappointed with what I have cost myself and how little it's seemed to change things for the better.

    I've booked out some self reflection time and will probably be off socials a while while I think about it.


    As you guys know, it's incredibly tough to get opportunities in poker when you're an attractive white woman under 40 years old. Like, super duper tough. If only she were a 53-year-old dude like me, the sponsorships would be rolling in.

    This chick honestly has zero self-awareness.

    While she's correct that women face a greater amount of disrespectful behavior at the table (usually from male fish), attractive women under 40 are overall the most privileged segment in the poker community.

    Among other things, they can develop an almost-instant social media following if they want, and sponsorships are handed out like candy. Vanessa should be very aware of this, as her ACR sponsorship was given to her before she had any notable poker results. Her big Pokerstars win (and subsequent big live cashes) occurred AFTER the ACR sponsorship had already began.

    Does she honestly believe that, if she were male, she'd have been given that ACR sponsorship with negligible Hendon Mob results at the time? Amazingly, she seems to believe that being an attractive female is a hindrance to getting sponsorships, rather than a gigantic asset.



    It's also laughable how she complains that female ambassadors are supposedly getting underpaid due to sexism. Dumb. Ambassadors get paid according to what the company feels they can bring to the table, as far as successfully promoting the site. She talks about the "highest paid" one making $1.2m per month (presumably Negeranu), far more than any female poker ambassador, but that's a ridiculous comparison because he's a gigantic name in poker and has a huge fanbase.

    She then compared herself to one of the other Vanessas -- Selbst -- and talked about how Selbst also had difficulty getting backing for big events. She totally glossed over the fact that Selbst was notoriously rude and condescending at the table (including to other women), which turned people off to her, plus was having a hard time adapting her 2000s style to modern poker. To imply that Selbst wasn't backed due to sexism is just totally being blind to the actual situation.



    This whinefest really comes off as self-unaware entitlement. It's basically saying, "I deserved to be backed in $50k events, and I deserved to be part of poker study groups, and I deserved to get big sponsorships, and those things didn't happen for me. It must be because I'm female."

    There are many well-liked women in poker who will speak out when they feel it necessary, and don't sexualize themselves to get ahead. Maria Ho is a perfect example of this. She's well respected and gets plenty of opportunities, yet didn't get to that position by sexualizing herself or avoiding speaking her mind.

    Vanessa just doesn't realize that she's often unpleasant to people, and that's why nobody wants anything to do with her. In fact, I was given information some years ago that Pokerstars considered hiring her after her big scores there, but several pros quietly objected because they strongly disliked her, so Pokerstars passed. None of the reasons for the dislike had to do with sexism. They simply didn't like her personality -- and in fact some expressing this were female.



    Vanessa is intelligent, and sometimes she posts things about the community (or an ongoing controversy in the community) to where I completely or mostly agree with her. But self-reflection has never been her strong suit, and there's always been a general tone to her posts that her problems are everyone else's fault.

    I can tell you that, in my 25 years in the poker community, not once have I ever felt I was entitled to anything other than fair treatment at the tables and by the online sites. My attitude about sponsorships and backing was always, "If it happens, and it's a good fit, great. If it doesn't, I'm not entitled to it anyway, so no big deal."

  2. #2
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
    Reputation
    11317
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    59,777
    Blog Entries
    2
    Load Metric
    113869329
    Aside from a few no-name simps encouraging her to keep her chin up, most of the response to the tweet has been negative.

    I predict that very few (if any) prominent names in poker are going to respond at all. She peaked in 2020 when she dressed down that weirdo Bilzerian, but since then people have decided they've had enough of the Kade Victim Show.

  3. #3
    Bronze
    Reputation
    19
    Join Date
    Feb 2025
    Posts
    68
    Load Metric
    113869329
    She's completely insufferable. She just whines all the time. At this point who really cares what it's about. But it's hard to understand someone this reasonably intelligent being this insanely deluded.

  4. #4
    Diamond TheXFactor's Avatar
    Reputation
    1296
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    7,267
    Load Metric
    113869329
    Just show us your tits, you fucking bitch.





     
    Comments
      
      1dollarboxcar: +++

  5. #5
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
    Reputation
    11317
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    59,777
    Blog Entries
    2
    Load Metric
    113869329
    Tweet was deleted today. Fortunately I copy/pasted the content to this thread.

    She then posted these two tweets in its place:

    https://twitter.com/VanessaKade/status/1958974139139858813

    https://twitter.com/VanessaKade/status/1959019524348682597

    next time I feel like discussing anything on Twitter that requires people to have 5th grade reading comprehension to follow, someone talk me out of it and tell me to go for a walk in the sun instead (did just that and feeling much better)

    my observations merit discussion, because visibility is the first step to bettering things, but not on a platform that rewards people for maliciously misinterpreting the message and drowning out any productive discussion through attacks via anonymous accounts

    a few times I've been offered a column on the news sites / magazines, and have never followed up... maybe that is a better place, or even the blog space on my (currently empty) site

    Zero self-awareness.

    And as predicted, zero prominent poker pros have commented on any of these tweets, and that includes all prominent poker women who are also ignoring her.

    And while some of the negative responses were of the "get back in the kitchen" variety, there were some very reasonable ones from people explaining that they otherwise like her, but that it's a bad look for an attractive female to assert that she's not getting sponsored due to her gender. Others tried to point out (mostly in the now-deleted thread) that her entire brand seems to be complaining about being a victim of some kind, and that people are just tired of it.

    The "misinterpreting the message" reference has to do with the sponsorship thing, where she explained (in yesterday's replies) that she wasn't saying being female was a disadvantage in getting sponsorship, but rather they're just underpaid due to being female. But that's nonsense. Only the big name male players get paid a lot of money for these poker sponsorships. There are tons of males in poker with far better tournament numbers than she has, who can't get sponsored at all. She got an ACR sponsorship with no significant tournament results at the time, but ignores this when she whines about how poker is so discriminatory against her.

    Vanessa complaining about it being difficult for women to get backing and sponsorships in poker would be like me complaining that I'm tired of the police discriminating against me because I'm a middle-aged white male. That's how absurd she sounds. Even in her "corrected context" (that women can get sponsorships but are overall underpaid), it's also absurd.

    I'm glad this is all going over poorly. Maybe she'll finally understand that constantly complaining about the community victimizing you isn't a way to endear yourselves to that same community.

  6. #6
    Bronze
    Reputation
    19
    Join Date
    Feb 2025
    Posts
    68
    Load Metric
    113869329
    Quote Originally Posted by TheXFactor View Post
    Just show us your tits, you fucking bitch.
    Yeah, they're clearly ridiculous... and think this is likely the only appropriate response to her at this point.

  7. #7
    Bronze
    Reputation
    19
    Join Date
    Feb 2025
    Posts
    68
    Load Metric
    113869329
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Tweet was deleted today. Fortunately I copy/pasted the content to this thread.

    She then posted these two tweets in its place:

    https://twitter.com/VanessaKade/status/1958974139139858813

    https://twitter.com/VanessaKade/status/1959019524348682597

    next time I feel like discussing anything on Twitter that requires people to have 5th grade reading comprehension to follow, someone talk me out of it and tell me to go for a walk in the sun instead (did just that and feeling much better)

    my observations merit discussion, because visibility is the first step to bettering things, but not on a platform that rewards people for maliciously misinterpreting the message and drowning out any productive discussion through attacks via anonymous accounts

    a few times I've been offered a column on the news sites / magazines, and have never followed up... maybe that is a better place, or even the blog space on my (currently empty) site

    Zero self-awareness.

    And as predicted, zero prominent poker pros have commented on any of these tweets, and that includes all prominent poker women who are also ignoring her.

    And while some of the negative responses were of the "get back in the kitchen" variety, there were some very reasonable ones from people explaining that they otherwise like her, but that it's a bad look for an attractive female to assert that she's not getting sponsored due to her gender. Others tried to point out (mostly in the now-deleted thread) that her entire brand seems to be complaining about being a victim of some kind, and that people are just tired of it.

    The "misinterpreting the message" reference has to do with the sponsorship thing, where she explained (in yesterday's replies) that she wasn't saying being female was a disadvantage in getting sponsorship, but rather they're just underpaid due to being female. But that's nonsense. Only the big name male players get paid a lot of money for these poker sponsorships. There are tons of males in poker with far better tournament numbers than she has, who can't get sponsored at all. She got an ACR sponsorship with no significant tournament results at the time, but ignores this when she whines about how poker is so discriminatory against her.

    Vanessa complaining about it being difficult for women to get backing and sponsorships in poker would be like me complaining that I'm tired of the police discriminating against me because I'm a middle-aged white male. That's how absurd she sounds. Even in her "corrected context" (that women can get sponsorships but are overall underpaid), it's also absurd.

    I'm glad this is all going over poorly. Maybe she'll finally understand that constantly complaining about the community victimizing you isn't a way to endear yourselves to that same community.
    The delusion of her thinking that somehow her post was in ANY WAY nuanced is certifiably insane. Legit lock her up and throw away the key, straigh-jacket insane.

    BTW, something I failed to touch on... outside of all the man hating stuff.... does she think she's the only one who got into poker and had an insane passion for it? I've been doing this for close to 30 years now. No one sponsored me (I always avoided it actually) and I didn't get here by playing/studying like twice/week? Seriously, how does one get to this mentally ill place that she's at currently?

  8. #8
    Bronze
    Reputation
    19
    Join Date
    Feb 2025
    Posts
    68
    Load Metric
    113869329
    How, BTW, again does everyone like her, in the same mentally ill place, think that when she's clearly wrong that it's my reading comprehension that's the problem. I read very clearly what she posted. AND, I am a natural english speaker.... with a college degree.... so that's certainly not the issue.

    I also have a penis. That's another strike against me, I understand.

  9. #9
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
    Reputation
    11317
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    59,777
    Blog Entries
    2
    Load Metric
    113869329
    Doug Polk has no patience for Vanessa's X shenanigans.

    https://twitter.com/DougPolkVids/status/1958867820835483931

  10. #10

  11. #11
    Bronze
    Reputation
    19
    Join Date
    Feb 2025
    Posts
    68
    Load Metric
    113869329
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Doug Polk has no patience for Vanessa's X shenanigans.

    https://twitter.com/DougPolkVids/status/1958867820835483931
    This is all kinda bizarre. I agree with him obviously. He's not stating anything that's not clearly true..... but it's the thing that he's not mentioning and that she's not getting push back on that I find the most bizarre.

    Sure, the cards can't see your gender. But the corporate side of all of this CAN see your gender. And OF COURSE they'd rather you WERE female. In fact, you don't even have to be as good as your male counterparts AND you have less competition.

    What a strange argument that there are LESS opportunities out there for women. Perhaps there are less opportunities out there for her because she's insufferable and won't stop complaining.

    She herself said she took a stand against a morally reprehensible situation in the corporate world and it cost her. So clearly she understands the equation here. We all make choices. Choices have consequences. This isn't hard.

    But to say that the opportunities out there don't exist for women is a much different thing than saying that opportunities don't exist for her. Cause one of those is likely correct and the other one for sure isn't.

  12. #12
    Bronze
    Reputation
    19
    Join Date
    Feb 2025
    Posts
    68
    Load Metric
    113869329
    All of this, obviously. I think I basically just wrote the same thing in the previous post.

  13. #13
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
    Reputation
    11317
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    59,777
    Blog Entries
    2
    Load Metric
    113869329
    She got sponsored by ACR in March 2021.

    At the time, her biggest live cash was $19,228, and she had just one 5-figure cash ($14k) in the prior 5 years.

    Her big scores on Pokerstars came AFTER the ACR signing, so you can't even say it's about that.

    Her poker results were almost nonexistent, yet she got sponsored anyway. Would this have happened if she were male? Can she name a single male with similar poker stats who got sponsored, aside from celebrities who were already famous outside of poker?

  14. #14
    All Sorts of Sports gut's Avatar
    Reputation
    862
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    5,192
    Load Metric
    113869329
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    She got sponsored by ACR in March 2021.

    At the time, her biggest live cash was $19,228, and she had just one 5-figure cash ($14k) in the prior 5 years.

    Her big scores on Pokerstars came AFTER the ACR signing, so you can't even say it's about that.

    Her poker results were almost nonexistent, yet she got sponsored anyway. Would this have happened if she were male? Can she name a single male with similar poker stats who got sponsored, aside from celebrities who were already famous outside of poker?
    Someone get this broad on the phone with Sophie Cunningham and have her ask Sophie why she has more money than, say, Breanna Stewart.

     
    Comments
      
      Dan Druff: lol

  15. #15
    Bronze
    Reputation
    19
    Join Date
    Feb 2025
    Posts
    68
    Load Metric
    113869329
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    She got sponsored by ACR in March 2021.

    At the time, her biggest live cash was $19,228, and she had just one 5-figure cash ($14k) in the prior 5 years.

    Her big scores on Pokerstars came AFTER the ACR signing, so you can't even say it's about that.

    Her poker results were almost nonexistent, yet she got sponsored anyway. Would this have happened if she were male? Can she name a single male with similar poker stats who got sponsored, aside from celebrities who were already famous outside of poker?
    Yeah obviously this is all so ridiculous. I legitimately think this world view is a form of foundational mental illness. We understand that the societal structure is a tyrannical patriarchy, every man is evil and that Jordan Peterson is the devil. I'm legit just so bored with it all.... she probably doesn't even deserve the energy of a response mocking her. It's all so trite at this point.

  16. #16
    Platinum nunbeater's Avatar
    Reputation
    545
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    2,813
    Load Metric
    113869329
    I always thought the greatest thing that came out of the whole Kade/DePaulo beef was DePaulo saying oh we all say crazy stuff sometimes, for example, Jeff Boski denies the holocaust

  17. #17
    Bronze
    Reputation
    19
    Join Date
    Feb 2025
    Posts
    68
    Load Metric
    113869329
    Quote Originally Posted by nunbeater View Post
    I always thought the greatest thing that came out of the whole Kade/DePaulo beef was DePaulo saying oh we all say crazy stuff sometimes, for example, Jeff Boski denies the holocaust
    Ryan's not making that type of thing up and posting it, IMO. At some point Boski for sure said that out loud. Boski is a strange fucking guy.

    FWIW, he (Boski) immediately tweeted that he had never said that.

    Something that I just found out literally today.... apparently his last name isn't Boski? Am i just really, really late to the party on this one? LOL

  18. #18
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
    Reputation
    11317
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    59,777
    Blog Entries
    2
    Load Metric
    113869329
    Quote Originally Posted by VegasSpider View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by nunbeater View Post
    I always thought the greatest thing that came out of the whole Kade/DePaulo beef was DePaulo saying oh we all say crazy stuff sometimes, for example, Jeff Boski denies the holocaust
    Ryan's not making that type of thing up and posting it, IMO. At some point Boski for sure said that out loud. Boski is a strange fucking guy.

    FWIW, he (Boski) immediately tweeted that he had never said that.

    Something that I just found out literally today.... apparently his last name isn't Boski? Am i just really, really late to the party on this one? LOL
    Jeff really is a weird guy.

    His name is Jeff Slusinksi,. I guess that doesn't roll off the tongue as well as Boski.

  19. #19
    Diamond BetCheckBet's Avatar
    Reputation
    1016
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    5,029
    Load Metric
    113869329
    I came here to see what sort of trouble Druff got him self into but he is spot on. If anyone should be talking about lack of sponsorships and abundance stalkers its druff. This woman has no idea how well above variance she was running with this shit.
    PokerfraudAlert acknowledges that our message board is on the unceded, unsurrendered Territory of Donkdown.com who's presence stretches back to that of Neverwinpoker and the Lithuanians. As such we acknowledge the great role that Tony G, Jewdonk, any many other Lithuanians have contributed to our community.

  20. #20
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
    Reputation
    11317
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    59,777
    Blog Entries
    2
    Load Metric
    113869329
    Quote Originally Posted by BetCheckBet View Post
    I came here to see what sort of trouble Druff got him self into but he is spot on. If anyone should be talking about lack of sponsorships and abundance stalkers its druff. This woman has no idea how well above variance she was running with this shit.
    It's worse than just running above variance and not realizing it.

    She got that sponsorship because she's in the most privileged (by far) demographic in poker -- young, white, female, and attractive.

    I don't begrudge any women who take advantage of that and take the sponsorships. If I were in that spot, I would too. However, when you're in that spot and act like you're the victim of sponsorship and backing discrimination (lol), it's just such a bad look.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 18
    Last Post: 10-13-2024, 01:30 PM
  2. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 01-23-2024, 10:59 PM
  3. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 09-09-2019, 08:27 AM
  4. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 07-30-2013, 02:50 AM