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Thread: Card counter banned from WSOP after being caught counting at Horseshoe Baltimore blackjack game

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Card counter banned from WSOP after being caught counting at Horseshoe Baltimore blackjack game

    A pro poker player named Joe Stiers was banned from the WSOP, supposedly due to card counting in blackjack. But is there more to the story?

    Here is the guy's own story from 2+2. Other media picked this up, but got things incorrect, so he made his own post about the matter:

    I am posting this video to give the full and honest truth about how easily this happened to me at Horseshoe Casino in Baltimore and to warn other players who might consider trying to play blackjack well. I also made this video to correct some of the inaccuracies quoted in the Baltimore Sun article.

    Below is the full and complete timeline of events between myself, Horseshoe Baltimore, Caesar's, and the Maryland Gaming Authority. I believe in honesty and transparency and I wish Caesar's would practice these same values. I feel this issue should have been easy to resolve.

    Timeline of Events Between Joseph Stiers and Horseshoe Baltimore Casino

    5/27/2014 - 7/14/2014: I am playing in Las Vegas for World Series of Poker (WSOP).

    8/2014: Horseshoe Baltimore opens its doors.

    9/17/2014: I stop by Horseshoe, Baltimore for the first time on my drive back from playing a World Poker Tour Event in Atlantic City and make $8700 at blackjack, playing for less than 30 minutes.

    9/30/2014: A friend of mine wants to go to Horseshoe so I return and lose $9800 playing blackjack. The poker games aren't very good and I decide I'm probably not going to return.

    11/2014: I start receiving large cash offers from Horseshoe to return and play at the casino in my mail and email. The first booklet is $270 in match play offers every 6 days of the month of November. Additional bonus offers accrue for showing up on Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays. I ignore those offers and the offers increase the next month to $475 each for the month of December.

    12/12/2014: I return to Horseshoe to start playing the free $475 match plays. Since I am home for the holidays anyways, I stop by on 12/12, 12/13, 12/18, and 12/19 to play my free plays. I lose over $5000 at blackjack and I never play for more than about an hour.

    12/19/2014: First incident at Horseshoe: I show up around 2 pm and play a $475 match play on the "first 12" bet on roulette. It spins the number 10 and I win, but they tell me they cannot pay me out because the match play is only valid on even money bets. In the fine print on the back of the coupon it does state this so I don't argue. They did allow me to bet it and waited until after I won to not pay it out, though. The Maryland Regulation Site specifically states that the "first 12" is a valid bet for match play coupons. I am not sure if this means that is an illegal coupon or not, but either way they shouldn't allow me to use it and wait until I win to tell me it's an invalid bet.

    I moved on to the blackjack tables and then to a different roulette table where I had the first real encounter with the floor people at Horseshoe telling me that I had to leave. They refused to tell me why, but did not say that I was not allowed back. I gave a manager named Hong my email and phone number to get back to me about what was going on and he never did. I followed up with the Maryland Gaming Authority.

    12/27/2014: Major incident: I return to Horseshoe around 1 pm because I heard they have a pretty good poker tournament on Saturdays. First I go to the promotions booth where they invited me to show up on that specific day and receive $180 in free Best Buy Gift cards. I received the gift cards upon showing them my Total Rewards Player Card and went upstairs and bought into the poker tournament for $350. I received an alternate seat, which meant I had to wait for someone else to get knocked out to play so I played blackjack for 10 minutes without any problems and made $550. I came back to the poker room and my seat was available. I played for a little over an hour and was doing pretty well when randomly 3 guys in suits showed up and told me I had to leave the casino. I told them I was in the middle of the tournament, which I paid for and I had chips. One of the guys responded, "These are my chips" and took them. They didn't offer me a refund for the buy in, which would have still been worth far less than my chip value at the time. I refused to leave because they were stealing from me and I had every right to the seat I paid for. They brought in a security guy, Darren Griffin, who tried to physically push me out of the room. I resisted being forcefully pushed from the seat I paid for, but made sure not to put my hands on him. He kept trying to push me out of the room so I lost my balance and fell down twice. That seemed to get him to stop assaulting me so I returned to my poker seat and waited for the police. Again, no one at the casino would tell me any reason why I was being asked to leave. Darrin Griffin took over the operation with the police and made statements that I know are false. First he said that I had already been told I could not come back to Horseshoe, which isn't true. I was never told not to return when I was asked to leave on 12/19. They didn't even seem to have any idea why they were kicking me out on 12/19. He also said that Horseshoe was banning me from all Caesar's properties, including Atlantic City and Las Vegas. I thought he had no authority to do this, especially since it's not legal in New Jersey to bar people for no reason.

    1/4/2014: I returned to Horseshoe because they sent me another booklet of new offers for the month of January. This led me to believe the previous incident was an egregious error and they wouldn't offer me $470 to show up if they wanted me banned. They lowered my match play by $5 from $475 to $470, which seemed strange, since $5 is irrelevant. This wasn't making sense and I figured I would give it another shot and stay entirely away from blackjack, since I am somewhat confident the issue is they think I am a card counter. I play craps with my match play for about 25 minutes and leave without a problem.

    1/9/2015: Criminal Trespassing Charge: A friend of mine invites me to go to Horseshoe to play craps. Once again I have a match play invite for the date offering $470. We find a craps table and play for 5 minutes and do very poorly. I give them my comp card alerting them I am there. They have no issues taking my money. I lose $700 and my friend loses $440. We go to the diamond lounge to grab a beer and relax. Police officers and security ambush me in the diamond lounge and take me to a security room.

    In the security room, Horseshoe finally and for the first time, tried to address why I was banned, but it felt like they were just making up nonsense. First they said that I was drunk on 12/23 and falling on the floor making a scene. I told them I had no drinks and Darren Griffin had pushed me to the floor and I requested those tapes be preserved. Then the Horseshoe people reconvened somewhere else while I sat with the police. Horseshoe personnel came back and told me I had been barred from all Caesar's properties when I was at the Linq in Las Vegas in July, which isn't true at all. It is important to note that Horseshoe had no information about the Linq until this very day, 1/9, when they obtained my license without my permission from the Baltimore police and Horseshoe scanned for prior incidents. I am fairly certain that giving my drivers license to Horseshoe personnel without my permission is illegal. Equally important, on July 14th I was banned from the Linq and only the Linq for playing 6-5 blackjack with a known card counter. The general manager invited me back the next night and offered to pay for drinks and explain it; I couldn't make it because I had day 2 of the Wynn main event, but I had no problems playing and staying at Caesars properties since then. Finally, since the reasons given were clearly untrue, Horseshoe returned to their original stance that they do not have to provide a reason for barring me. I was then escorted to my car by police and security and given a trespassing citation.

    1/21/2015: Maryland Gaming Control Agency ordered Horseshoe to refund my money from the tournament I was kicked out of on 12/27/2014. The Commission pointed out in their email that they were requesting the refund because it was clear I hadn't broken any rules or done anything wrong. At this point they declared my case closed and their job complete. They failed to address the issue of the match play on 12/19/2014 where the casino let me bet it on "first 12" of roulette and waited for me to win to decide it was not allowed on that bet. I think this highlights my point that the MLGCA will not interpret anything more than the obvious, since allowing an illegal bet and only declaring it illegal after the player wins is just another form of stealing. They also determined that my being barred from Horseshoe Baltimore without any valid explanation was not the Gamin Control Agency’s responsibility.

    2/9/2015: I return home from an east coast poker trip for a WPT and CPPT event and I receive the check from Horseshoe and another booklet of offers. At this point I thought the situation was resolved, but luckily I did not try to return to Horseshoe. I logged onto totalrewards.com to look at rates for the WSOP in June and discovered my card was player restricted. I made numerous phone calls and learned that Horseshoe had barred me from playing at all properties, which includes registering to WSOP events. I called Horseshoe in an attempt to resolve and explain what happened. I spoke with Christine Farley who took down notes on my story and assured me I would get a call back from her or Chad Barnhill within two days.

    2/11-2/13/2015: I call 3 times a day trying to get in contact with Chad Barnhill and Christine Farley, but my calls are sent to voice mails and all of my voice mails are ignored. Finally, on 2/13 my mom calls and gets through to Christine and then to Alex Dixon. He informs my mom that they are discussing my case and reviewing their policies and procedures and will inform me on Wednesday 2/18 of their decision on whether my playing status will be restored at all properties, all Caesar's properties except Horseshoe Baltimore, or remain banned at all Caesar's properties.

    2/18/2015: I receive an email from Alex Dixon informing me that Horseshoe and Caesar's management has made the decision to ban me from All Caesar’s Properties. There is still no explanation for why I am being evicted. I receive a "courtesy call" from Alex Dixon informing me of the decision as well. He refuses to offer any substantial reason why I was barred other than a management decision.

    2/19/2015: I receive a phone call from Stephanie Appiah; she claims it is in response to my complaint with Caesar's Corporate and tells me she will reinvestigate to ensure that the original review was handled fairly. I send her this timeline.

    2/21/2015: I discover that Stephanie actually works for Horseshoe, Baltimore under the same managers that made this original decision. I try to politely inquire about the organizational structure of the investigation and get no reply.

    2/23/2015: I again politely try to inquire about the organizational structure and offer to discuss the situation with the people involved and get no reply.

    2/24/2015: I receive an email from Stephanie informing me that Horseshoe stands by its original decision. I am still completely in the dark as to why they have done this.

    2/26/2015: The WSOP event begins at Horseshoe Baltimore and I am forced to miss the event and miss the opportunity to compete in the 2015 leaderboard standing and represent myself in my home state. I call a close friend and professional poker player to see if he can help. My friend tells me that he has two close friends who had this happen years ago in Las Vegas and that Caesar’s won’t bother you if you merely play the poker events and stay away from playing blackjack or using the mailed matchplay offers. He additionally informs me that casinos cannot trespass you without first asking you to leave if you have an offer inviting you.

    2/27/2015: I decide to try what my friend suggested and register for the WSOP event on 2/27. I figure if they don’t let me join, I will just leave and go home. To my surprise, they allow me to buy in to the tournament even though it requires my player card, which alerts them of who I am. I sit in my seat to begin play and a manager pulls me aside and tells me that I know I am not allowed to play here and asks what I am doing here. I tell him about my conversation with my friend and politely agree to leave. He says, “okay I’ll get you a refund so you can get out of here,” He asks for my license to get the refund and I comply. Then he leaves me in a chair and gives it to security who in turn gives it to Darrin Griffin, who in turn calls the police and makes me wait to receive a trespassing violation. I am completely harassed by Griffin and the officer and remain polite the entire time.

    At one point the officer says, “You had better show up on the court date or else your family will find out you’re doing this and they will stop supporting you.” I reply, “huh, my family knows what is going on.” She replies, “Well if your parents find out about this, they going to stop supporting you and you’re going to have to find a job” This is about the 4th time the officer and/or Darrin Griffin has harassed me about needing to find a job without knowing anything about me. For what it’s worth, I keep perfect accounting records, own my own condo, declared over $200,000 in earning this past tax year and support myself entirely through poker. They are treating me with extreme prejudice without knowing anything about me. I would also like to point out that both times I interacted with security supervisor Darrin Griffin, he stated that I was barred in all properties in the country. He specifically stated New Jersey, which state law prohibits them from barring me in. I have played in New Jersey without a problem, but this shows how it is hard to trust what he actually has authority over when it comes to trespass violations, since he makes claims that contradict other state laws.

    In any event, it seems odd and wrong that a casino in the State of Maryland should have the power-or think it has the power-- to bar citizens from playing in its own casino and other casinos within its corporate family in other states—casinos in no other states have such power.
    http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...kjack-1521965/

    (my commentary follows 2 messages down in this thread)

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Here is a video of the guy talking about it:


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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    So here's my reaction to the whole thing:

    First off, there's no doubt that Horseshoe Baltimore handled the matter poorly. For those of you that don't know, being "asked to leave" from a casino is different from being barred. When you're asked to leave, you are not committing a crime by coming back (though, honestly, you should know you're not welcome and stop coming there anyway.)

    Furthermore, kicking him out of the tournament and refusing to refund his buyin was especially bad form, especially since it had nothing to do with cheating in the poker tournament (or anywhere for that matter), and even if he was already barred, they knowingly let him register. The fact that the Maryland Gaming Commission had to force the Horseshoe to refund his buyin was really shameful, and it looks like the Horseshoe was trying to straight up steal from him (for purposes of being vindictive, in my opinion).

    BUT...

    WTF is wrong with this guy?

    He was clearly asking for trouble.

    Let's look at the important parts of the timeline:

    12/19/14: He was kicked out of the Horseshoe "for no reason" while playing blackjack. Uh huh. More like they caught him card counting, and sent him home.

    12/27/14: Eight days later he tries to return and play a poker tournament there. He doesn't check with anyone if they're okay with him doing so. I mean, he just got thrown out of the place the prior week, and they wouldn't provide him with a reason. Why didn't he simply ask them prior to registering for the tournament if he was allowed to return and play?

    1/4/15: Again, eight days later, he returns to the Horseshoe! This time it's even more ridiculous for him to do so, as they had made it clear just 8 days earlier that he was barred from all Caesars properties. His excuse? He received marketing offers in the mail from the Horseshoe with freeplay coupons.

    Now let's stop right here.

    Anyone who has been around modern casinos in the last 15 years knows that the marketing department is always about 2 months behind. That is, your offers today tend to be based upon what you did 2 months ago, NOT what you did last week. So if you play in the high roller section and throw around a ton of money, the marketing department won't send you those nice freeplay coupons until 2 months later. And, on the flip side, if you get yourself barred from the casino, you will still receive those offers for 2 months. In fact, sometimes those offers won't stop at all, because the marketing department isn't always connected well with security/barring records.

    Is this stupid? Yes. Is it ridiculous that, in our instantaneous, wired world of 2015, the casino marketing departments are so poorly connected and delayed? Yes.

    But did this guy honestly believe that receiving a freeplay coupon a few days after being barred from Caesars properties was somehow their way of inviting him back?

    Certainly not. This guy is not some noob gambler from the midwest. This is someone who supports himself gambling, and took the time to learn how to count cards at blackjack. This was no naive sucker. He knew exactly what he was doing when he walked through those doors of the Horseshoe on January 4. He knew he was directly violating their trespass warning, and thought he was clever with his marketing offers, figuring that he had found a loophole.

    It has been known in advantage play circles for at least 15 years (maybe more) that you are supposed to ignore marketing offers if you've been barred from a property.

    1/9/15: Just five days later, he returns again!



    Obviously the dude just wants to keep challenging the Horseshoe. He wants to test whether he can keep showing back up with those $475 freeplay coupons, probably both because he wants to redeem them and he just feels like being a pain in the ass.

    For good measure, he went back once again on February 27!

    Anyway, after being the biggest nuisance possible for the Horseshoe, of course Caesars eventually gives him (and upholds) the ultimate penalty of a complete barring from all properties, including the WSOP.

    Had he simply been barred for counting cards at blackjack once, and then found himself out of the WSOP, I would be the first person screaming to have him reinstated.

    Instead, the guy knowingly entered a foolish game of chicken with Horseshoe Baltimore regarding his "right" to be there, and he lost.

    He pretty much made his own bed with this one.

    Not that Horseshoe Baltimore handled this well, because there were several alarming parts of the story, and I think I believe most of his accounts of what happened. However, even from this guy's own version of events, he is not deserving of our sympathies, and in my opinion, he finally reaped what he sowed.

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    How Could You? WillieMcFML's Avatar
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    This guy is not some noob gambler from the midwest.

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    Bronze JSTAT's Avatar
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    I got involved with the Joseph Stiers incident on 2+2 by starting the original thread of his WSOP banning due to his card counting at the Baltimore Horseshoe Casino http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...nting-1521398/. Stiers "crime" was presenting a players club card (Total Rewards) to the pit while using his skills at blackjack. Any experienced card counter worth his salt knows this is suicide for longevity at playing blackjack. We all have made mistakes Druff and I feel Stiers should be allowed to play in the WSOP. Stiers has made over $500,000 in tournament play in the last two years and needs that money to put food on the table. Maybe a permanent barring from all Caesars properties with a WSOP participation carve-out is in order to resolve this for Stiers.

    I made a video calling Mitch Garber (CEO of the Baltimore Horseshoe and the WSOP) a hypocrite for saying poker is a skill in spite of his thugs tossing a blackjack player out of the Horseshoe for using skill. Stiers claims he has a video of him being assaulted by Horseshoe security while being 86'd. This can be a basis for a lawsuit. Maybe his attorney (if he has one) can offer a compromise to drop a possible assault charge in exchange for Stiers WSOP participation.

    Last edited by JSTAT; 04-02-2015 at 09:54 AM. Reason: Original 2+2 link broken
    Sharing my love of card counting and casinos without charge. https://twitter.com/Casino_Examiner

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    Gold Shizzmoney's Avatar
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    Stiers "crime" was presenting a players club card (Total Rewards) to the pit while using his skills at blackjack
    This really goes to show what these "Cards" are for: surveillance of monetary activity by patrons (and not just for customers to accrue "rewards").

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    Platinum ftpjesus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shizzmoney View Post
    Stiers "crime" was presenting a players club card (Total Rewards) to the pit while using his skills at blackjack
    This really goes to show what these "Cards" are for: surveillance of monetary activity by patrons (and not just for customers to accrue "rewards").
    Oh I'm convinced theres a lot to it.. Cant prove it but I had more luck in some random slot play with no card then playing with a players card in a few places in and around Phoenix.. (haven't been to Desert Diamond as they are still working on full Class 3 gaming stuff which just finally got approved after massive fight with the other Injuns and the State Gaming Board)

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