Stealthmunk (Justin Schwartz) going off on poker coaches, specifically Jonathan Little

[Dan Druff]

Coaches exist in every endeavor so that won't be changing.

Some obv. take advantage of recent success and try to cash in on it.

When the poker boom hit I followed the rest into NL Holdem and lost

regularly so I switched to limit just to keep the numbers under control

but soon realized it too was not much easier for me, but I didn't lose so much

so quickly.

Then I found this site and the free training offered by Todd and Neverwin

in limit and it turned my game into a profitable one, comparatively speaking.

The the math wizards appeared and or the bots/cheaters an the bankroll

slid back to a sink hole.

I'm now back on NL and for some reason I'm winning more than losing.

My question for you Todd, is Barry Tanenbaum still a respected limit coach

and has Ed Miller ever been one? (I got his DVD from Pokerstars).

Also, have you thought of getting into coaching for profit?

I realize the game has changed due to the lack of donks

but you could easily edit your former shows for this purpose.

Why the weird writing style above?

Anyway, I haven't seen much of Barry Tannenbaum's play. He sat next to me once with a BAD cold at Bellagio 30-60, and it pissed me off because he should have been home instead of infecting everyone. Like, he had a huge mound of tissues and was blowing his nose every few minutes.

From what I could tell from the brief time I played with him, he seemed to be an ABC "older white guy" player, with a 1990s playstyle. So his coaching would probably benefit a fish, but I don't think that good players could learn anything from him, and there's a good chance he couldn't beat Commerce 40-80, even ignoring the terrible rake there. I can't say for sure, because I only played with him a short time.

I don't know of Ed Miller coaching LHE. I think he's only NL.

I don't think there's much money in coaching LHE these days. Probably not enough for it to be worth it to do 1-on-1 sessions. Maybe I could make some videos and sell them, but honestly I think the time might be past for that too.

[Dan Druff]

I have to reject the argument that sports coaches can be compared to poker coaches, because being a successful athlete requires both youth and a high level of natural physical skill.

You can be a good sports coach by having all of the mental/emotional aspects of the game down, even if you completely lack the physical. That's why guys in their 80s can still be good athletic coaches, even though they clearly have little physical athletic ability by that point.

Poker requires natural skill, but it's all mental/emotional. So stealthmunk is saying that if you can't beat the game, you have no business teaching others how to beat it.

I think there are two exceptions to this.

First, if you are only coaching novices, you can improve someone's game without being an expert player, because you're helping someone go from bad to good, not good to world class. That's why I'm wondering who Johnathan Little is coaching. Clearly the argument can't be made that Little sucks at poker. Perhaps he's not an elite player by today's standards, but he doesn't need to be elite to coach most ordinary NL players who want to step their game up. However, if Little is charging a ton of money to coach players who are already really good (and perhaps better than him), then yes, he's either delusional or dishonest.

Second, if you have a lot of great concepts in your head, but lose due to poor self control, then you could also be a good coach. For example, take someone like neverwin. There's no question he was a great LHE player, but his problem (among other things) was that you never knew which neverwin would show up to the game. There are several players like him -- ones with an incredibly large gap between their "A" and "F" games. Someone like that can still be a good coach, because they are likely to give their "A" advice.

But I think stealthmunk is primarily correct, in that most "coaches" are delusional regarding their own abilities, and then coach people (and charge rates) according to those delusions.

Regarding one's own poker skill, I've always said that you are likely one level worse than you think you are.

If you think you are about as good as Joe but a little bit better than Dave, in reality you and Dave are the same and Joe is better than you. If you think you can beat 10-20 NL and that 5-10 NL is beneath you, it's likely you really belong at 5-10 NL (where you would probably win) and are a dog at 10-20 NL. You get my point.

[big dick]

all poker coaches should be shot imo, as well as anyone who makes a training video along with the owners of the training sites.

[herbertstemple]

A poker coach is more so like a tutor. People use the term coach to mean teacher here. A team coach is totally different for several reasons.

Poker coach is more so like music or chess teacher.

Also those sports coachers were still better players than 99 percent of population

Fair enough.

You are correct about head coaches or Team managers being a poor example. The closest one I can think of is a baseball hitting coach. Everyone else on the field is against the batter except for any base runners which usually are of little help to him. He can't ask for advice in the batters box. Its just him against the world, much like a poker game.

[BeerAndPoker]

Even though Jonathan Little runs a training site, puts out a bunch of books,etc... he still actually gives away free training content. He is currently streaming on twitch atm for example:

http://www.twitch.tv/jonathanlittle

As to how good it is I'd say his SNG and MTT stuff is decent which he has good numbers in that but I hear he's doing cash stuff with live at the bike and other places which I'd say people have way better choices if they are wanting to pay for training for cash then using JLittle.

[SrslySirius]

I'm not qualified to speak on his coaching credentials, but I'd like to say that Jonathan Little is one of the nicest poker players I've met. Super cool guy.

[BetCheckBet]

I have to reject the argument that sports coaches can be compared to poker coaches, because being a successful athlete requires both youth and a high level of natural physical skill.

You can be a good sports coach by having all of the mental/emotional aspects of the game down, even if you completely lack the physical. That's why guys in their 80s can still be good athletic coaches, even though they clearly have little physical athletic ability by that point.

Poker requires natural skill, but it's all mental/emotional. So stealthmunk is saying that if you can't beat the game, you have no business teaching others how to beat it.

I think there are two exceptions to this.

First, if you are only coaching novices, you can improve someone's game without being an expert player, because you're helping someone go from bad to good, not good to world class. That's why I'm wondering who Johnathan Little is coaching. Clearly the argument can't be made that Little sucks at poker. Perhaps he's not an elite player by today's standards, but he doesn't need to be elite to coach most ordinary NL players who want to step their game up. However, if Little is charging a ton of money to coach players who are already really good (and perhaps better than him), then yes, he's either delusional or dishonest.

Second, if you have a lot of great concepts in your head, but lose due to poor self control, then you could also be a good coach. For example, take someone like neverwin. There's no question he was a great LHE player, but his problem (among other things) was that you never knew which neverwin would show up to the game. There are several players like him -- ones with an incredibly large gap between their "A" and "F" games. Someone like that can still be a good coach, because they are likely to give their "A" advice.

But I think stealthmunk is primarily correct, in that most "coaches" are delusional regarding their own abilities, and then coach people (and charge rates) according to those delusions.

Regarding one's own poker skill, I've always said that you are likely one level worse than you think you are.

If you think you are about as good as Joe but a little bit better than Dave, in reality you and Dave are the same and Joe is better than you. If you think you can beat 10-20 NL and that 5-10 NL is beneath you, it's likely you really belong at 5-10 NL (where you would probably win) and are a dog at 10-20 NL. You get my point.

The physical mental is certainly a big part as well.

The other exception to poker coaching is if you are teaching a very specific skill set. Like if you were a coach for pokersoftware and teaching people how to use the tools. About 99% of poker coaches though are just giving general coaching.

I don't know a lot about Mr. Little. There are lots of terrible coaches out there and a few good ones. My biggest gripe is how overpriced the market is. The are poker ebooks are the worst though.

[shortbuspoker]

I'm not qualified to speak on his coaching credentials, but I'd like to say that Jonathan Little is one of the nicest poker players I've met. Super cool guy.

No doubt. He was one of the first people that agreed to be on the 22Q podcast after I hit him up out of the blue on Twitter.

[Daniel72]

I always loved, how J. Little explains sngs and tourneys in his videos, im a member of his floattheturn training site.

The membership costs only $10 a month! Thats nothing!

There are many other video coaches on his site besides J. Little himself ... like spacegravy, hotjenny, z32fanatic, ddbeast, johndayton, etc.

Recently i got an email from him:

"On the webinar, I'm going to review some
of the hands from a $109 buy-in tournament
I won in December.

There were 3121 entrants and first place
earned me $49,156."


I looked at OPRankings and indeed, he still knows one or two things about poker:

[SetofKs]

Not sure how much of this I do or don't agree with, but these guy certainly helped to ruin poker. Especially at the lower limits. Even a shitty coach can teach people how to beat certain lower limit games. I mean, I'm pretty sure I could teach anybody with an above average IQ how to make $20k/year playing poker, even in games I'm not that good at. 20k isn't much, you can make more working at mcdonalds, but thats great money to some people. Especially people in poorer countries.

[Shizzmoney]

I agree with alot of what Stealthmunk says....but two counter points:

A) poker coaching is mostly bullshit, but if people want to buy that shit - it is their business (as it is Stealthmunk's right to say that paying for such services is mostly useless, which I agree with, especially for advanced players).

B) Say a fish wins a big tourney, WSOP. This person luckboxed it and sucks at poker, but Ceasar's wants to pay them a shit ton of money to be at seminars (which exist to drive head count). They have never had any chance to make money before this, or they are deeply in debt and need the money to pay off that debt.

Do you say no to the potential earn? That's a pretty tough circumstance; most people, especially those in poker, are kinda in it to be able to make money NOT involving a 9-to-5 with a boss.

For someone to say, "well, I have to be honest with myself and NOT take that big check and the free shit because I'd be a scumbag if I am not" is a pretty tough thing to do. What if Foxwoods ever offered Stealthmunk a chance to coach for a weekend (please let this happen if there is a God with a sense of humor)?

It's all relative too: I didn't have much problem with a smaller pro taking money from a scam site like UB/AP/FTP because I understand that the pressure to pay bills, re-adjusting into the corporate world, family shit, etc. You'd want someone to have more integrity when it comes to their personal brand, but I do understand. But for someone like Annie for UB, or Annette to stump for Lock, for all that time, for every last nickel (of most likely players' money)? That's fucked up.

[sonatine]

I agree with alot of what Stealthmunk says....but two counter points:

A) poker coaching is mostly bullshit, but if people want to buy that shit - it is their business (as it is Stealthmunk's right to say that paying for such services is mostly useless, which I agree with, especially for advanced players).

B) Say a fish wins a big tourney, WSOP. This person luckboxed it and sucks at poker, but Ceasar's wants to pay them a shit ton of money to be at seminars (which exist to drive head count). They have never had any chance to make money before this, or they are deeply in debt and need the money to pay off that debt.

Do you say no to the potential earn? That's a pretty tough circumstance; most people, especially those in poker, are kinda in it to be able to make money NOT involving a 9-to-5 with a boss.

For someone to say, "well, I have to be honest with myself and NOT take that big check and the free shit because I'd be a scumbag if I am not" is a pretty tough thing to do. What if Foxwoods ever offered Stealthmunk a chance to coach for a weekend (please let this happen if there is a God with a sense of humor)?

It's all relative too: I didn't have much problem with a smaller pro taking money from a scam site like UB/AP/FTP because I understand that the pressure to pay bills, re-adjusting into the corporate world, family shit, etc. You'd want someone to have more integrity when it comes to their personal brand, but I do understand. But for someone like Annie for UB, or Annette to stump for Lock, for all that time, for every last nickel (of most likely players' money)? That's fucked up.

the very same arguments can be made for psychic healers and other outright predators.

[Shizzmoney]

I agree with alot of what Stealthmunk says....but two counter points:

A) poker coaching is mostly bullshit, but if people want to buy that shit - it is their business (as it is Stealthmunk's right to say that paying for such services is mostly useless, which I agree with, especially for advanced players).

B) Say a fish wins a big tourney, WSOP. This person luckboxed it and sucks at poker, but Ceasar's wants to pay them a shit ton of money to be at seminars (which exist to drive head count). They have never had any chance to make money before this, or they are deeply in debt and need the money to pay off that debt.

Do you say no to the potential earn? That's a pretty tough circumstance; most people, especially those in poker, are kinda in it to be able to make money NOT involving a 9-to-5 with a boss.

For someone to say, "well, I have to be honest with myself and NOT take that big check and the free shit because I'd be a scumbag if I am not" is a pretty tough thing to do. What if Foxwoods ever offered Stealthmunk a chance to coach for a weekend (please let this happen if there is a God with a sense of humor)?

It's all relative too: I didn't have much problem with a smaller pro taking money from a scam site like UB/AP/FTP because I understand that the pressure to pay bills, re-adjusting into the corporate world, family shit, etc. You'd want someone to have more integrity when it comes to their personal brand, but I do understand. But for someone like Annie for UB, or Annette to stump for Lock, for all that time, for every last nickel (of most likely players' money)? That's fucked up.

the very same arguments can be made for psychic healers and other outright predators.

Fair. Ms. Cleo made hundreds off my mom. Fuck that bitch.

[limitles]

Coaches exist in every endeavor so that won't be changing.

Some obv. take advantage of recent success and try to cash in on it.

When the poker boom hit I followed the rest into NL Holdem and lost

regularly so I switched to limit just to keep the numbers under control

but soon realized it too was not much easier for me, but I didn't lose so much

so quickly.

Then I found this site and the free training offered by Todd and Neverwin

in limit and it turned my game into a profitable one, comparatively speaking.

The the math wizards appeared and or the bots/cheaters an the bankroll

slid back to a sink hole.

I'm now back on NL and for some reason I'm winning more than losing.

My question for you Todd, is Barry Tanenbaum still a respected limit coach

and has Ed Miller ever been one? (I got his DVD from Pokerstars).

Also, have you thought of getting into coaching for profit?

I realize the game has changed due to the lack of donks

but you could easily edit your former shows for this purpose.

Why the weird writing style above?

Anyway, I haven't seen much of Barry Tannenbaum's play. He sat next to me once with a BAD cold at Bellagio 30-60, and it pissed me off because he should have been home instead of infecting everyone. Like, he had a huge mound of tissues and was blowing his nose every few minutes.

From what I could tell from the brief time I played with him, he seemed to be an ABC "older white guy" player, with a 1990s playstyle. So his coaching would probably benefit a fish, but I don't think that good players could learn anything from him, and there's a good chance he couldn't beat Commerce 40-80, even ignoring the terrible rake there. I can't say for sure, because I only played with him a short time.

I don't know of Ed Miller coaching LHE. I think he's only NL.

I don't think there's much money in coaching LHE these days. Probably not enough for it to be worth it to do 1-on-1 sessions. Maybe I could make some videos and sell them, but honestly I think the time might be past for that too.

I like to double space, and outer space but this site doesn't. If there were a poll about it I'd go along with the majority.

Apparently Ed Miller is nicer than Johnathan Little

[limitles]

all poker coaches should be shot imo, as well as anyone who makes a training video along with the owners of the training sites.

Wouldn't you rather lynch the black ones?

[tyde]

I'm not qualified to speak on his coaching credentials, but I'd like to say that Jonathan Little is one of the nicest poker players I've met. Super cool guy.

sick testimonial



although it will take Todd about 120 seconds to eviscerate his character and have him branded as a child molester in about 30 mins

[BeerAndPoker]

[ThreeBet]

Jonathan Little is a POS who shared his account and was booted off of Team Full Tilt

[SetofKs]

Jonathan Little is a POS who shared his account and was booted off of Team Full Tilt

sounds like a good guy imo. risked it all just to help a friend get free rakeback

[SpewArtist]

Agree with the munk here for the most part. One on one poker coaching in general is not an outright scam but is a joke in terms of value. Training sites (referring to only Ivey League, RunItOnce, and DeucesCracked) however, I think are generally good value. You can play ~$500/yr and get access to hundreds of strat videos from 20 different guys versus paying one guy who *used to beat the games a ridic hourly.

Speaking of this, I was browsing twitch the other day, I see a guy streaming that I used to play with all the time. Look at his page and he's charging $300/hr for coaching, I lol'ed, this guy was a reg but definitely one of the weaker spots in the game. There's absolutely no chance his hourly was near $300 in that game and his advice wouldn't be worth $30/hr, much less $300.

I will say I think there is some disconnect between playing and talking strategy/coaching, I've come across some guys on forums that could verbalize strategic concepts and conduct super strong hand analysis, but couldn't beat 25NL. And it wasn't because they had any glaring leaks, I think it was just because they couldn't pull the trigger on certain plays in real time.