Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 29 of 29

Thread: Commerce kills free food for middle and high limit players, effective 3/1/15

  1. #21
    Platinum Jayjami's Avatar
    Reputation
    879
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    South Lake Tahoe
    Posts
    3,164
    Load Metric
    65661571
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanlmar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayjami View Post
    Went to Commerce last night. It is official. No more free food, at least in the 20/40 and 40/80 sections. Had to use my players card, which has $20 of credit. They are even charging for bottled water!

    I let the floor know I was not happy and that I would be playing more often at Hustler and Hawaiian Gardens. He told me that all the card rooms will be charging in the near future. I doubt that is true. The room was pretty quiet. Only 2 20/40 and 3 40/80 limit Hold'em games going.
    BNP posted a "Live at the Bike" video featuring StickyRice.

    Couple of things stuck with me after skimming it.

    One of the announcers was talking about the Commerce being a ghost town now.

    Another was paying a monthly $9.95 fee to watch a $3/5 NL game with a bunch of locals. Was that the best game spread - dear jesus? It did have StickyRice and he clowned it up a bit but WTF has poker become?

    Just as online poker had a lot of wretched excess that has disappeared - you are witnessing the end of the fun comps in brick and mortar.

    The big casino companies are pretty fucked up right now. As stupid as they were with over building etc - some will swing too far the other way (like charging for water).

    If playing at Walmart is their model, just let us game online.
    I don't mind paying for food, if the rake is lower. Artichoke Joe's in Burlingame is run this way. They have super cheap good Asian food and a low rake. They still have "no flop, no drop"! Many Nevada rooms don't comp food either. I can understand Commerce's position as well, because many players abuse their food privileges, but for the rake they charge in 20/40 and 40/80, they are still making a hefty profit. This appears to be a bean-counter move.

  2. #22
    Platinum thesparten's Avatar
    Reputation
    -12
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    3,590
    Blog Entries
    1
    Load Metric
    65661571
    Artichoke Joe is doing it right in my opinion..there should be more small stand alone spots like that..

  3. #23
    Platinum
    Reputation
    336
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    4,694
    Load Metric
    65661571
    Just saw this thread. I have only played at Hustler since March 1st, so I cannot independently confirm, but from what I am told HG, Commerce and the Bike planned this move together. For now, Hustler (and Hollywood Park) are still doing the free food thing to top section. Hustler even gives free food from a special menu (with less options) to the 8-16 players.

    I have been playing at Hustler for several years, almost exclusively 25-50, including through the 50-100 period, which actually lasted for over a good year. I wanna say it lasted for a couple years, but maybe not. I will ask a floorman next time I go to Hustler and find out.

    Hustler, unlike Commerce, is actually pretty good about reducing the rake during short handed play, taking $1/hand for 4 handed, $2/hand for 5, and $3/hand for 6 (this includes jackpot and isn't great, but a lot better than Commerce).

    It was always too big and out of my comfort zone for it to be my main game, but I played the 50-100 maybe 20 times total when the games were good and I was running good. I don't remember the rake vs collection thing being a big issue. I don't remember ever seeing Druff in this game, but I do remember seeing Druff (and Neverwin) playing 100-200 and higher at Commerce during this time period. The 50-100 might actually have been too small for Druff during this time.

    I think what happened is what happened to limit poker in general. When the online games dried up, all the good online limit players moved to Los Angeles to play live and the pro/fish ratio got too skewed. The fish (and recreational guys like me who weren't pros but could beat a soft lineup) lost too much money and stopped playing and/or dropped down. The Hustler 50-100 was basically supported by a very small pool of fish, and a lot of good players who would only play if a mark or two was in the game. Eventually the fish ran out of money and dropped down or quit playing, and that was that. I doubt if a time charge would have mattered all that much.

    I am friendly with a couple of the pros who used to play that game everyday. I will ask them what they think next time I see them and ask them if the rake vs time charge was a big deal.

    FWIW, the $60-120 rarely goes anymore. Basically it is the same dynamic at Commerce I stated above for the Hustler 50-100. There is ~25 good players in the top section on any given day who are more than willing to play 60-120, but will only play if a couple fish are in the game and the game will break the second the fish quit, so the game will sporadically start up around a couple fish and break as soon as they are done.

    I honestly believe if there were less very good limit holdem pros in So Cal the mid and high limit games would be thriving more, because the regs, both fish and decent playing recreational players, will lose their money a lot slower and have more winning sessions. But I can't blame the pros too much. What else are they gonna do? There really is no consistent high limit limit holdem pretty much anywhere else in the world other than Commerce Casino anymore.

  4. #24
    Platinum Jayjami's Avatar
    Reputation
    879
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    South Lake Tahoe
    Posts
    3,164
    Load Metric
    65661571
    Quote Originally Posted by verminaard View Post
    Just saw this thread. I have only played at Hustler since March 1st, so I cannot independently confirm, but from what I am told HG, Commerce and the Bike planned this move together. For now, Hustler (and Hollywood Park) are still doing the free food thing to top section. Hustler even gives free food from a special menu (with less options) to the 8-16 players.

    I have been playing at Hustler for several years, almost exclusively 25-50, including through the 50-100 period, which actually lasted for over a good year. I wanna say it lasted for a couple years, but maybe not. I will ask a floorman next time I go to Hustler and find out.

    Hustler, unlike Commerce, is actually pretty good about reducing the rake during short handed play, taking $1/hand for 4 handed, $2/hand for 5, and $3/hand for 6 (this includes jackpot and isn't great, but a lot better than Commerce).

    It was always too big and out of my comfort zone for it to be my main game, but I played the 50-100 maybe 20 times total when the games were good and I was running good. I don't remember the rake vs collection thing being a big issue. I don't remember ever seeing Druff in this game, but I do remember seeing Druff (and Neverwin) playing 100-200 and higher at Commerce during this time period. The 50-100 might actually have been too small for Druff during this time.

    I think what happened is what happened to limit poker in general. When the online games dried up, all the good online limit players moved to Los Angeles to play live and the pro/fish ratio got too skewed. The fish (and recreational guys like me who weren't pros but could beat a soft lineup) lost too much money and stopped playing and/or dropped down. The Hustler 50-100 was basically supported by a very small pool of fish, and a lot of good players who would only play if a mark or two was in the game. Eventually the fish ran out of money and dropped down or quit playing, and that was that. I doubt if a time charge would have mattered all that much.

    I am friendly with a couple of the pros who used to play that game everyday. I will ask them what they think next time I see them and ask them if the rake vs time charge was a big deal.

    FWIW, the $60-120 rarely goes anymore. Basically it is the same dynamic at Commerce I stated above for the Hustler 50-100. There is ~25 good players in the top section on any given day who are more than willing to play 60-120, but will only play if a couple fish are in the game and the game will break the second the fish quit, so the game will sporadically start up around a couple fish and break as soon as they are done.

    I honestly believe if there were less very good limit holdem pros in So Cal the mid and high limit games would be thriving more, because the regs, both fish and decent playing recreational players, will lose their money a lot slower and have more winning sessions. But I can't blame the pros too much. What else are they gonna do? There really is no consistent high limit limit holdem pretty much anywhere else in the world other than Commerce Casino anymore.
    Excellent post. Totally agree with you that the mid-limit hold 'em games in LA are as tough as they have ever been (but not unbeatable). Your explanation as to why makes a lot a sense. Agree that Hustler tends to be more player friendly. Probably because 25/50 is the biggest game there.

  5. #25
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
    Reputation
    10110
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    54,626
    Blog Entries
    2
    Load Metric
    65661571
    Maybe we found different incarnations of the 50-100 at Hustler. That is, perhaps they tried it a few different times.

    When I saw it, the game only existed for a short time (definitely less than 2 months), and the rake was definitely the reason it died. Regs were constantly complaining about it to one another, and everyone was further pissed that Hustler management wasn't listening and wouldn't change it.

    Eventually the complainers about the rake stopped showing up (myself included), and it stopped running.

    I do believe that there are 25-50 regulars who would happily step up to a raked 50-100 if fish are willing to play it, but that's not the way to get a regular game going.

    Hustler had a chance to grab some of Commerce's 40-80/60-120 action at the time, and they blew it by charging MORE than Commerce's 60-120 for a less active game.

    On a side note, Commerce has increased their rake enough to where Hustler might be able to beat them now with the identical 50-100 rake game, but as you said, there's not enough LHE action these days to make it happen in all likelihood.

  6. #26
    Platinum
    Reputation
    336
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    4,694
    Load Metric
    65661571
    I played at Hustler from 2003-2005 and again from 2007-present. I moved out of town for a couple years. The iteration of the 50-100 I am talking about is from 2007-2009? (not sure when it finally ended). Maybe you are talking about an earlier iteration? By 2007 all yellow and brown chip games were rake + jackpot drop and I think most everyone had gotten used to rake + jackpot, so it wasn't really an issue I don't think. In fact, I think if they tried to not have a jackpot there probably would have been a problem. Hustler seeds their jackpots real high (starting at 40k), and it is definitely something most of the players seem to like, even if it still isn't in their best interests from an EV perspective.

    I know for a fact that current management has stated they will not randomly start a 50-100 game to accommodate a big fish. The reason being it would piss off too many of the 25-50 regs who aren't comfortable jumping up and don't want to see their fishes taken from them. Also, the 25-50 just isn't that strong anymore, rarely ever reaching even 3 games.

  7. #27
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
    Reputation
    10110
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    54,626
    Blog Entries
    2
    Load Metric
    65661571
    BUMP

    Went to Commerce twice this week.

    The good news is that the middle limit and high limit holdem scene is kinda back there. Somehow they wrestled it away from the Bike.

    The bad news is that the food situation is a complete fail. I know I was bitching about this situation in 2015, but I'd LOVE to have the 2015 version back at this point.

    Let me count the ways:

    - You no longer earn any points toward food. Everyone pays the same, whether they walked in off the street or are regular players who log 12 hours per day. FAIL.

    - The food is not cheap anymore. They used to sell fairly decent food at below market prices. Not anymore! Now it's $15 for a burger. Again, FAIL.

    - The selection sucks balls. You used to have a huge menu with many different types of food. Then that menu was only available during the hours of like 7am to 1am, but at least it was available most of the day, and you had a reduced menu late at night. Now there is just a small menu of choices. FAIL.

    - No more food runners. You need to go get it yourself from a pickup area. While it's nice to be rid of the tip-hustling, it sucks when you want to just stay at the table without having to get up and take a round off to pick up the food. FAIL.


    Oh, and they charge $1 for a Commerce branded bottled water now.

    Just terrible all around. Eating like a pig used to be one of my pleasures of playing at Commerce, and somewhat made me feel better about the high rake. Not anymore.

  8. #28
    Bronze
    Reputation
    29
    Join Date
    Jul 2020
    Posts
    134
    Load Metric
    65661571
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    BUMP

    Went to Commerce twice this week.

    The good news is that the middle limit and high limit holdem scene is kinda back there. Somehow they wrestled it away from the Bike.

    The bad news is that the food situation is a complete fail. I know I was bitching about this situation in 2015, but I'd LOVE to have the 2015 version back at this point.

    Let me count the ways:

    - You no longer earn any points toward food. Everyone pays the same, whether they walked in off the street or are regular players who log 12 hours per day. FAIL.

    - The food is not cheap anymore. They used to sell fairly decent food at below market prices. Not anymore! Now it's $15 for a burger. Again, FAIL.

    - The selection sucks balls. You used to have a huge menu with many different types of food. Then that menu was only available during the hours of like 7am to 1am, but at least it was available most of the day, and you had a reduced menu late at night. Now there is just a small menu of choices. FAIL.

    - No more food runners. You need to go get it yourself from a pickup area. While it's nice to be rid of the tip-hustling, it sucks when you want to just stay at the table without having to get up and take a round off to pick up the food. FAIL.


    Oh, and they charge $1 for a Commerce branded bottled water now.

    Just terrible all around. Eating like a pig used to be one of my pleasures of playing at Commerce, and somewhat made me feel better about the high rake. Not anymore.
    I know this is unrelated to the food topic at Commerce but it's also an epic fail now with their 4 seasonal tournament series. The latest one starts in September and the structures are terrible, all of them. So many levels skipped and the main event is now $600. That's the biggest buyin they have in this series. And zero guarantees. From someone who remembers even a few years ago when Commerce had lots of good tournaments with good structures and decent guarantees, what they have now is a f'n joke. Seems to me the whole place has gone downhill significantly and it keeps getting worse. For me I have zero interest of setting foot inside that place again.

  9. #29
    Bronze
    Reputation
    73
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    187
    Load Metric
    65661571
    When I first started playing casino poker at Casino Sandia in Albuquerque many years ago, they had a buffet that was free for seated poker players. I gained about 20 pounds in 4 months. One time I brought a girlfriend to watch me play and the poker room manager Larry Riggenburg (RIP) made a big show of bringing her a chair and then presenting me with 2 "free" buffet tickets like I was some sort of bigshot. I loved that guy!
    Soon after that they stopped the free food deal and charged $5 for poker players. Larry told me that they had to do it because nearby food places were complaining they were losing business.
    The best food deal I've ever seen was at Crystal Park casino in Comton (Oh, excuse me, "Crystal City", but that's another story.)
    I was there sometime in the 90's when it had just opened or just been through major renovations. I was comped room and food because I played a lot of hours. This was 20-40 LHE. They had like a 4 star kitchen. Excellent food. After a couple of days a waiter would see me come in, immediately bring me a cold coke and a menu, and take my order. There was some kind of Thai chicken dish that was particularly partial to.
    Unfortunately, I couldn't beat the game and had to leave after about a week. I believe there was rampant cheating with collusion and card marking. Someone would point out a mark or a tear and ask for a deck change about every 20 minutes.
    It sure was fun for awhile though!

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Mistakes NL players make at limit, and vice-versa
    By Dan Druff in forum Casinos & Las Vegas
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 08-26-2015, 08:17 PM
  2. Replies: 20
    Last Post: 05-31-2014, 01:02 PM
  3. iPoker network killing mid-high stakes fixed limit games, increasing rake
    By Dan Druff in forum Scams, Scandals, and Shadiness
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11-25-2013, 02:04 PM
  4. WSOP Food Vouchers eliminated, players now to earn comps
    By Dan Druff in forum Flying Stupidity
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 05-07-2012, 02:47 PM