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Thread: United Airlines and Orbitz sues 22 year old Skiplagged.com founder....who LEGALLY figured out how to get cheap plane tickets

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    United Airlines and Orbitz sues 22 year old Skiplagged.com founder....who LEGALLY figured out how to get cheap plane tickets

    This whole lawsuit idea is laughable on SO many levels

    They are suing him for doing something COMPLETELY legal.

    I had no idea about this "system" to possibly get cheap plane tickets nor the website Skiplagged.com, until I read about this today.
    Well played United Airlines/Orbitz....well played!


    http://money.cnn.com/2014/12/29/news...ed-22/?npt=NP1


    A young computer whiz from New York City has launched a site to help people buy cheap plane tickets. But an airline company and its travel partner want to shut him down.

    United Airlines (UAL) and Orbitz (OWW) filed a civil lawsuit last month against 22-year-old Aktarer Zaman, who founded the website Skiplagged.com last year.

    The site helps travelers find cheap flights by using a strategy called "hidden city" ticketing.

    The idea is that you buy an airline ticket that has a layover at your actual destination. Say you want to fly from New York to San Francisco -- you actually book a flight from New York to Lake Tahoe with a layover in San Francisco and get off there, without bothering to take the last leg of the flight.

    Related: Airlines get $1 billion from baggage fees

    This travel strategy only works if you book a one-way flight with no checked bags (they would have landed in Lake Tahoe).

    It's not like these tickets are the cheapest all the time, but they often are.

    In the lawsuit, United and Orbitz call Skiplagged "unfair competition" and allege that it is promoting "strictly prohibited" travel. They want to recoup $75,000 in lost revenue from Zaman.

    Zaman said he knew a lawsuit was inevitable but he points out that there's nothing illegal about his web site.

    He also said he has made no profit via the website and that all he's done is help travelers get the best prices by exposing an "inefficiency" in airline prices that insiders have known about for decades.

    "[Hidden city ticketing] have been around for a while, it just hasn't been very accessible to consumers," Zaman told CNNMoney.

    Related: 6 products to keep the skies friendly

    Indeed, "hidden city," ticketing is no secret among frequent fliers, said Michael Boyd, President of Boyd Group International, an aviation consulting firm in Evergreen, Co. Boyd worked as an American Airline (AAL)ticket agent 30 years ago, and says he was trained at the airline to help customers find "hidden city" fares.

    "I don't think it's illegal what he's doing," Boyd said. But lawsuits are expensive and it could end up costing the young entrepreneur who has irked the two billion dollar corporations.

    Airlines usually offer cheaper fares for some destinations that are not regional hubs, Boyd said. Many of these flights are routed through more popular destinations. But if a lot of people take advantage of that discrepancy it could hurt the airlines, which is why they want to shut him down.

    Related: 10 vacation experiences of a lifetime

    Born in Bangladesh, Zaman grew up in Brooklyn, N.Y., and graduated with a bachelor's degree in computer science at age 20 from Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. He lives in Manhattan and works at a technology start-up that he declined to name.

    Zaman said Skiplagged is just a "side project."

    Zaman and United declined to discuss the lawsuit. Orbitz said in a statement that it is obligated to uphold airline fare rules.

    Other travel experts say that the airlines may not achieve much if Zaman's site is shut down, especially in a world where information is becoming more readily available.

    "If [Skiplagged is] shut down, undoubtedly there will be other people to come along to scrape fares and make them available," said Robert Mann, president of R.W. Mann & Company, an airline consulting firm in Port Washington, N.Y.






    While Googling, I found a "ask me anything" thread from Reddit from him:
    http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comment...ued_by_united/

     
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      My Dupe: a gordman thread
      
      PLOL: I enjoyed it actually
      
      bukowski72: I knew about this before but Marty Carico so wanting attention Martin created a dpe, which Marty says he never does gets green
      
      MumblesBadly: Defeating price gouging by the airlines is illegal??? Hell, no!!!

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    Name:  jewdy.png
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    Jewdonk keeps bringing the hits lol

    You need a hug bro?

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    The Artist Formerly Known as Jewdonk
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    you can do better than quoting a red rep screaming for attention in your own shit thread since you suck at posting anything original

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    Platinum herbertstemple's Avatar
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    While working in Memphis years ago I got to go to a training class in Seattle.

    Apparently the plane tickets were a lot cheaper flying from to Little Rock to Seattle than Memphis to Seattle. Had to drive four fucking hours from Memphis to Little Rock, get on the plane, fly back to Memphis, catch another plane and fly to Seattle. Coming back, had to do the reverse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by My Dupe View Post
    you can do better than quoting a red rep screaming for attention in your own shit thread since you suck at posting anything original

    You're forgetting something here, I don't need to do better. I don't need to scream for attention. Im laughing at you...not trying to defend myself. Im laughing at you bitching about some skank and your "friend". Im laughing how just when I think shit can't get any funnier and lower, you keep bringing the hits. lol

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    This is something I would have done. Glad it's not me being sued.

    Totally outrageous. He's directing people to purchase legal airfares. What's wrong with that?

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    Gold abrown83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    This is something I would have done. Glad it's not me being sued.

    Totally outrageous. He's directing people to purchase legal airfares. What's wrong with that?
    People buying these fares are in violation of carriage contract. Read what you are buying a bit closer you could be held liable (although unlikely).

    The kid did nothing illegal himself.

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abrown83 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    This is something I would have done. Glad it's not me being sued.

    Totally outrageous. He's directing people to purchase legal airfares. What's wrong with that?
    People buying these fares are in violation of carriage contract. Read what you are buying a bit closer you could be held liable (although unlikely).

    The kid did nothing illegal himself.
    Yes, but as you said, there is no way the airline is going to take action against travelers doing this.

    I actually did this once, in 2008. Blew me away that I would otherwise have paid over $100 NOT to fly to the next leg.

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    Gold Corrigan's Avatar
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    Pretty sure if it is a matter of LAW we need to turn to our in-house legal expert DRKSTR
    Quote Originally Posted by abrown83
    I'm going to come across as a bit of a douche but I really know more about this then anyone on this board by miles.

    ...if Trump is nominee he wins Presidency easily. Angry Blue Collar Whites will have record turnout.

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    Platinum herbertstemple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    This is something I would have done. Glad it's not me being sued.

    Totally outrageous. He's directing people to purchase legal airfares. What's wrong with that?
    The airlines have hole in how they do business and someone exploited it.

    Just like someone who walks into a casino, plays blackjack, keeps up with the cards played in his head, wins a little money then gets hassled by casino security and management then kicked out of the casino.

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    BUMP

    Now PASSENGERS using Skiplagged are getting sued.

    Can't blame this one on the US, as it's Lufthansa suing a passenger in Germany, but it's over the same thing:

    https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/l...ntl/index.html

    This is total bullshit.

    The passenger should have the right to miss whichever flights he chooses, and he should also hae the right to purchase tickets in whichever manner results in the lowest price.

    I wonder if we will see the same BS occur in the US, or if the airlines won't do this because they don't want a PR disaster on their hands.

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    The contract of carriage is also crap.

    It should not be able to legally mandate that you show up for a flight, as you are not costing the airline money by failing to appear.

    It would be similar to suing me because I notice I can buy a burger and fries for $6 when the burger itself is $7, and then I throw away the fries. What I do with the fries is my own business, as my consumption or disposal of them does not affect the business' costs.

    It should be illegal to penalize a customer for NOT using part of a product or service he purchases.

     
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      MumblesBadly: Exactly!!!

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    Diamond BCR's Avatar
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    I don’t understand. Do you book the flights through this site? Or does this site simply point out the deals? I have to imagine it’s the latter or they wouldn’t accept fares booked through the site. How do they prove I didn’t just get out to have a drink and miss my flight if I don’t book a hotel or rent a car in advance?

    Edit-read the article. Should have done that first. It sounds like they really have to cherrypick to find a lawsuit and there isn’t much they can do to stop this otherwise .
    Last edited by BCR; 02-12-2019 at 03:08 PM.

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCR View Post
    I don’t understand. Do you book the flights through this site? Or does this site simply point out the deals? I have to imagine it’s the latter or they wouldn’t accept fares booked through the site. How do they prove I didn’t just get out to have a drink and miss my flight if I don’t book a hotel or rent a car in advance?
    Skiplagged is just a search engine which finds flights like this. I think it can book them for you, too, but you don't have to.

    I couldn't see them suing someone in the US for doing this as a passenger, but nothing shocks me these days with the airlines.

    They could probably prove that you intentionally missed the flight because the passenger could not show that he took a replacement flight after that.

    But so what?

    If they want to do stupid pricing where an extra leg of an itinerary costs LESS money, that's their right, but they shouldn't cry foul when people purchase that cheaper option and then skip the last portion of it.

    They can't even make a good argument that the last leg is a loss-leader meant for the customer to spend additional money. It's not. The seat itself is by far the largest part of the airline expenditure, whereas onboard expenditures per person are very minimal (luggage and food, and that's it).

    They can't even claim they lost the luggage revenue, because there's no way to "skiplag" a flight if you have checked bags, so either way the luggage fee was going to end up zero point zero.

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    BUMP

    Seven years later, it's happening again -- this time with Southwest.

    https://skift.com/2021/08/03/southwe...eceive-flyers/

    Southwest's legal claims are laughable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southwest
    Flight crews and ground operations employees in connecting cities will attempt to locate connecting passengers (or ‘through’ passengers) for the final leg of the flight, or delay flights when passengers are missing—unaware that a passenger has ended his or her trip in the connecting city. The practice negatively affects Southwest’s ability to estimate passenger headcounts, causing potential disruptions at the airport gate and maintenance adjustments, such as variations in the amount of jet fuel needed for each flight and proper passenger distribution within the plane.
    Basically theyr'e saying that they can't locate the passengers who got off in the middle and left, and that delays flights. What?! Since when do airlines wait for connecting passengers to show up? They will only do this if an entire connecting flight is delayed, but not for individual passengers who simply don't show up.

    They also claimed that Skiplagged and Kiwi.com are "colluding" to offer fares for Southwest flights which are better than those on Southwest.com, thus giving Southwest a competitive disadvantage.

    Bullshit. Nobody is forcing Southwest to charge people NOT to continue flying.


    Southwest is a shit airline. I hate it. They have policies which I describe as "fake customer friendly", where they make some policies more flexible in order to gain a competitive advantage, but in turn are extremely INFLEXIBLE for any slightly non-standard situation which comes up.

    My only two experiences on Southwest were very bad, and in fact they cheated me out of $100 back in 2009.

     
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      shoeshine box: Their #1 rule is to make $$$ for SW. fk em all

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    Cubic Zirconia
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    Southwest does not have a bizarre pricing scheme and let me try and explain how it works. Let's say you live in L.A. and need to go to Chicago, IL. You go to southwest.com and put in LAX for the departure and ORD (Chicago O'Hare) for the destination. What Skiplagged does is put LAX for the departure and then chooses a bunch of different final destinations that connect in ORD. The connecting city has nothing to do with the fare and so these aren't public fares that are publicly available because they don't exist. It's a loophole that is being exploited and it's not a scheme or greed but common sense. To get rid of this loophole the only solution would be to start charging people for their connecting flights and making those seperate tickets. If you think the lines at the airport are long now, just wait if they did this and everyone had to check in for their connecting flights which would mean going through security twice, checking a bag twice, etc. and it would be a disaster.

    If there is a flight from ORD to Minneapolis, MN that Skiplagged finds cheaper, they are purchasing a ticket from LAX to MSP that connects in ORD. So they are booking a flight from ORD to MSP that they don't want or need. ORD has nothing to do with the fare and that's why you don't see it on Southwest.com because you aren't being charged for LAX to ORD and ORD to MSP but are being charged for LAX to MSP. Skiplagged is purchasing seats on a plane that they have no need for and their client has no intention of using. Any travel agency or airline understand that you shouldn't book flights for people that they don't want or need. You can't cancel one portion of a connecting flight without cancelling both because the connecting city has nothing to do with the fare because it would be stupid to do that and make more problems for everyone. It also would result in planes having more empty seats which is bad for the traveler and not so much for the airline. This a disservice to the traveler because it is a seat that someone could have used but wasn't able to because when you are looking for flights, it shows that the flight is sold out because someone booked a ticket that they have no intention of using to save a few bucks and it's a pretty selfish thing to do when you think about it.

    I hope this makes more sense and explains it a little better. I am not trolling or upset by this and don't want this to come across like that. If I didn't do this everyday then I would have thought the airlines were the ones in the wrong here as well. But since I do this for a living (I should say, used to as COVID has left me jobless since March of 2020) I just wanted to clarify it to give a better understanding. Love listening to the show and hope this helps. Any questions or comments, feel free to ask and I'll be happy to answer them.
    Last edited by randomguy; 08-19-2021 at 02:27 AM.

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Thanks for the explanation, and I understand it, but I'm afraid I don't agree that the airline is in the right.

    I fully get your point -- that you're paying for the flight to the destination, and it's not calculated nor considered by the airline how they're getting you there. So if someone is going from Los Angeles to Baton Rogue, they're paying for that itinerary, and if it happens to stop in Houston, that isn't figured into the pricing. This means it's possible a flight to Houston could be more expensive, because they're independent of one another, even if the same plane is involved in one of the legs.

    However, the problem is that this still fails the common sense test. It makes sense HOW and WHY it happens, but it doesn't make sense THAT it's happening.

    The local Wendy's by me charges $1.79 for 6 chicken nuggets, and $3.99 for 10. This means you could buy 12 nuggets for $3.58, whereas 10 nuggets would be $3.99. Obviously one would be a fool to buy 10 nuggets at these prices, even if they only wanted 10. The smarter play would be to buy two 6-packs, and throw two away if you only want 10. You'd still save money!

    No matter how much Wendy's could try to explain "why" this pricing scheme makes sense, it stiil fails the sanity check. Obviously it makes sense to the owner -- perhaps he realized that there were a lot of orders coming in for 10, and most people don't do the math, so he makes extra profit. However, he couldn't cry foul if people figured out to order two packs of 6, nor would it be ethical to sue websites which point this out (or even delivery services which direct people to the best deal).

    Same thing here. For whatever reason -- probably demand -- airlines are pricing some flights requiring a connection cheaper than those which only utilize the first leg of that connecting flight. When it all comes down to it, people are paying NOT to fly a second leg. While the airlines can charge whatever they want, the customers can buy whatever they find to be the best deal, and travel agents can help the customer find the best publicly available deal.

    You would have a better point if these were two different flights, albeit through the same airport. For example, let's say a flight to Baton Rouge connecting through Houston at 6am is cheaper than a direct flight to Houston landing at 4pm. Well, you could say the traveler is paying a premium for not flying in the super early morning, so it makes sense. But not if the flight to Houston is the exact same flight as the first leg as the one to Baton Rouge. Then it should be the same or cheaper to just fly to Houston.

    It also shouldn't be the passgener or travel agent's concern whether this is good for the airline or other passengers. I don't worry about what's good for anyone except me and my family when I book a flight, and I'm sure you don't, either.

    Do you really think Skiplagged should be sued for directing travelers to this info?

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    They do mess with the supply and demand and could theoretically cause higher prices to occur...but it seems like these super cheap tickets are usually last minute types.

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    Gold Cerveza Fria's Avatar
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    So, once again, the airlines who don't actually have a valid legal claim here, are just doing this to scare off passengers and other ski-lagged copy cats from engaging in this type fo behavior. They're just using the system to bully people. Nothing more. They know they will lose, but they are betting people won't have the stomach to do this anymore.

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    Cubic Zirconia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Thanks for the explanation, and I understand it, but I'm afraid I don't agree that the airline is in the right.

    I fully get your point -- that you're paying for the flight to the destination, and it's not calculated nor considered by the airline how they're getting you there. So if someone is going from Los Angeles to Baton Rogue, they're paying for that itinerary, and if it happens to stop in Houston, that isn't figured into the pricing. This means it's possible a flight to Houston could be more expensive, because they're independent of one another, even if the same plane is involved in one of the legs.

    However, the problem is that this still fails the common sense test. It makes sense HOW and WHY it happens, but it doesn't make sense THAT it's happening.

    The local Wendy's by me charges $1.79 for 6 chicken nuggets, and $3.99 for 10. This means you could buy 12 nuggets for $3.58, whereas 10 nuggets would be $3.99. Obviously one would be a fool to buy 10 nuggets at these prices, even if they only wanted 10. The smarter play would be to buy two 6-packs, and throw two away if you only want 10. You'd still save money!

    No matter how much Wendy's could try to explain "why" this pricing scheme makes sense, it stiil fails the sanity check. Obviously it makes sense to the owner -- perhaps he realized that there were a lot of orders coming in for 10, and most people don't do the math, so he makes extra profit. However, he couldn't cry foul if people figured out to order two packs of 6, nor would it be ethical to sue websites which point this out (or even delivery services which direct people to the best deal).

    Same thing here. For whatever reason -- probably demand -- airlines are pricing some flights requiring a connection cheaper than those which only utilize the first leg of that connecting flight. When it all comes down to it, people are paying NOT to fly a second leg. While the airlines can charge whatever they want, the customers can buy whatever they find to be the best deal, and travel agents can help the customer find the best publicly available deal.

    You would have a better point if these were two different flights, albeit through the same airport. For example, let's say a flight to Baton Rouge connecting through Houston at 6am is cheaper than a direct flight to Houston landing at 4pm. Well, you could say the traveler is paying a premium for not flying in the super early morning, so it makes sense. But not if the flight to Houston is the exact same flight as the first leg as the one to Baton Rouge. Then it should be the same or cheaper to just fly to Houston.

    It also shouldn't be the passgener or travel agent's concern whether this is good for the airline or other passengers. I don't worry about what's good for anyone except me and my family when I book a flight, and I'm sure you don't, either.

    Do you really think Skiplagged should be sued for directing travelers to this info?
    I don't think you understand how it works because your examples are wrong. "Baton Rouge connecting through Houston and then a flight to Houston being the exact same flight as the first leg to Baton Rouge. You are comparing a flight to Baton Rouge with a flight to Houston. Those are two different destinations and because one is a connection and one is the final destination is why you can't compare them because connecting cities have no impact on the fare. When you are on the plane going from Houston to Baton Rouge, you are paying for whatever city you are leaving from to Baton Rouge. Houston is not a factor in the cost at all. If you were flying out of Las Vegas then your fare is based on Las Vegas to Baton Rouge. Houston doesn't factor into it at all. So even though you are getting on a different plane, the cost is based on Las Vegas to Baton Rouge. It could be Houston or Hong Kong, it doesn't matter because it is based on the departure city to the destination. Having to change planes doesn't mean you have a different ticket.

    Yes I do think Skiplagged should be sued and if I were an airline I would sue them or anyone who is costing my airline money by booking reservations that someone has no intention of using. I would bet a lot of money that they will win. Also, I do worry about what's good for other travelers because that's (was) my job and I'd be doing my company and my clients a disservice by just doing what's best for one individual. When you drive places, do you cut people off and drive slow in the left lane? If you have a reservation someplace do you not cancel it or do you just no show? Your example of fast food is not a good one because they are not comparable and the pricing structures of the two businesses are different. When you go to Wendy's they have a set menu and the price doesn't change. It doesn't matter what time of day you order the food, you know what the price will be. In this specific situation, the biggest difference is that Wendy's isn't going to run out of food and there aren't only x number of hamburgers and fries to go around each day. With the airlines, there are only so many seats on a flight and only so many flights per day. It's best for the airlines and the travelers that these planes be filled rather than have empty seats that nobody is using that could have been filled by someone else who needed them. If everyone did what Skiplagged does, then there would be 10 or 12 seats on every flight that go unused. As soon as you wanted to make a reservation and you were told all the flights were sold out, you wouldn't be happy about that and everyone would be upset at the lack of availability. Then the airlines would have to offer more flights that involves more planes and more resources that all could be avoided and would be a giant waste. Imagine if someone needed to go somewhere and couldn't because they where told all the flights were sold out and then a friend calls them and says that the flight wasn't sold out and he saw 5 empty seats on the plane. People would be upset about that.

    I worked at the Emergency Travel Department so I always dealt with last minute changes, weather cancellations and delays, and so a big part of my job was looking to get my clients to a meeting that changed or home for a family emergency and I know how valuable one seat on a plane can be. When Skiplagged does this, they are booking a ticket that they don't need. So it is a wasted reservation that someone else could have had or used but can't. There are a lot of factors that go into the cost of a ticket. It's not as simple as same plane going to the same destination at the same time so the price should be the same because the connecting city is not the fare you are paying for. With an airline ticket, the ticket price could vary greatly depending on how many seats were left on the plane, how close to flight time that you purchased the ticket, and if it is a roundtrip or a one way are a couple of factors off the top of my head. One person could sit on a plane and pay $75 because he purchased it 14 days in advance and he could sit next to someone who paid $1,000 if they purchased it last minute and grabbed the last seat. That's just looking at it as one flight and not part of an itinerary that is just one flight of others on the same ticket. If you think the pricing structure is flawed then that's a completely different argument or discussion than what Skiplagged is doing. Skiplagged is booking fares that aren't real fares and are finding a loophole that if everyone did what they did, it would cause bottlenecks and a lot of headaches for everyone. It may appear that they aren't doing any harm with this because they are the only ones doing it. The reason why they are the only ones doing it is because anyone with experience understands what a disaster it would be if everyone did it this way. The kid being 22 who came up with this says it all. He doesn't know any better and just looks it as a way to profit and fuck everyone else. Let's say you are going Las Vegas to Houston. Should the airlines factor in all the connecting flights that go through Houston? Skiplagged looks for any flight from Las Vegas to X airport that connects in Houston. Houston is not part of the fare and doesn't influence the ticket, nor should it. So if there is a flight cheaper that is Las Vegas to Baton Rouge that connects in Houston, then they have to purchase a ticket for Las Vegas to Baton Rouge and this will leave a seat on the plane from Houston to Baton Rouge unused that nobody has any intention of using or any need for. Since the connecting city has nothing to do with the fare, why do you think it is a scheme to base their pricing based on departure city to their destination?

    Let's say you have start "Poker Fraud Alert Airlines" and I call into your reservations and say that I want to travel from LAX to Baton Rouge on August 24.

    How would you do it?

    What would you say is the cost?

    Are there any rules or restrictions with this ticket?

    Is there a penalty if I need to make a change?

    If there aren't any non-stops and I have to connect somewhere do I have to purchase two tickets and check in twice, and go through security twice?




    I didn't know the first part of this thread and read the articles after I posted this. I don't think the airlines should sue a passenger but I think a website or travel agency shouldn't book reservations that the person doesn't want or need. If a person wants to buy a ticket that they won't use then that's their choice but if a website or a travel agency decides to do this then that multiplies what they are doing by the size of the agency and how many clients they have making it a problem. One individual should be judged different than an agency that books for 10,000 individuals. You'd be a pretty bad travel agency if you helped one traveler but hurt the rest of your clients.
    Last edited by randomguy; 08-20-2021 at 05:33 PM.

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