Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: WSOP easing rules regarding table talk

  1. #1
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
    Reputation
    10110
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    54,627
    Blog Entries
    2
    Load Metric
    65716491

    WSOP easing rules regarding table talk

    http://www.pocketfives.com/articles/...ration-587369/

    In a conference call with members of the media on Tuesday, World Series of Poker (WSOP) officials outlined major changes to the rules regarding table chatter and player celebration. The WSOP crew pointed out several times that, due in part to imposed restrictions, players had been forced into silence the table, not able to discuss a hand in progress or get excited about a win.

    WSOP Tournament Director Jack Effel, who has apparently been working out in earnest ahead of the 2012 WSOP, told the media that players will now be allowed to discuss the contents of their hand while the action is still going on: "You can say whatever you want about the contents of your hand and disclose the contents of your hand as long as you don't show your cards and as long as no other player in a hand has a decision to make. If no other player in the hand has a decision to make, you can speak freely."

    Effel shared the back-story to the rule change: "We’d like to see more players talk at the table because we feel it's an integral part of the game… If a player is all-in and there's no one left to act, you can say, 'I have two aces and a flush draw. I know I have you beat.' Obviously, there will be errors, but we're trying to get you guys to loosen up a bit and talk. We still want to protect against soft play and collusion."

    If you've watched the live broadcasts of the WSOP on ESPN or online, then you know players have been largely reticent in recent years, perhaps in part due to the WSOP's regulations. "We stream these events to showcase poker's best and what we see are players sitting in their shells," Effel (pictured) observed. "We've made it to where it's a little more open by extending the talking strategy, but we're asking for players who make the streamed or televised tables to verbally declare their actions and the amounts of them so we can get a little more talking at the table."

    WSOP Executive Director Ty Stewart elaborated that poker on television becoming more entertaining is a side benefit of allowing players to banter: "We've tightened poker up so much that players are afraid to use verbal strategy to out-man their opponents, which has been integral to poker. It takes poker back to its fundamental basis and its strategic intent. As a result, you get good TV."

    Also changing in 2012 is the WSOP's stance on excessive celebration, which it instituted following the antics of Hevad RaiNKhAN Khan (pictured) in 2007. Effel relayed, "We feel we went a little extreme with Hevad Khan jumping and having outbursts. We put a rule in place that prevented players from enjoying their success and celebrating when they won a hand. It's not a problem to celebrate a hand. It's okay to let that out. We don't feel it's okay to be disruptive, though, but we've rewritten the rule to say we want you to celebrate, just don't be crazy. It's up to our discretion."

    Stewart joked, "No Tournament Director at the WSOP should be confused with Paul Bart: Mall Cop. We want to have an authentic experience where people are excited about winning unthinkable money. They should be able to have excitement. There were cases last year where celebrations were penalized. A poker room isn't a church. We just think we need to set the tone to bring some of the fun back."
    They are obviously doing this because the ESPN broadcasts have become boring, but it's a good change.

    It was really dumb that you couldn't talk about the contents of your hand, even in a heads-up pot. Took away some of the psychological element of the game.

    I'm also glad that they retracted two years ago the dumb "no going on the internet while at the table" rule. However, it's still lame that they don't let you do this once you're in the money. So are they saying they are afraid of cheating once you're deeper in the tournament, but not afraid of it in the earlier and middle stages?

  2. #2
    Gold Steve-O's Avatar
    Reputation
    36
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    1,812
    Load Metric
    65716491
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    http://www.pocketfives.com/articles/...ration-587369/

    In a conference call with members of the media on Tuesday, World Series of Poker (WSOP) officials outlined major changes to the rules regarding table chatter and player celebration. The WSOP crew pointed out several times that, due in part to imposed restrictions, players had been forced into silence the table, not able to discuss a hand in progress or get excited about a win.

    WSOP Tournament Director Jack Effel, who has apparently been working out in earnest ahead of the 2012 WSOP, told the media that players will now be allowed to discuss the contents of their hand while the action is still going on: "You can say whatever you want about the contents of your hand and disclose the contents of your hand as long as you don't show your cards and as long as no other player in a hand has a decision to make. If no other player in the hand has a decision to make, you can speak freely."

    Effel shared the back-story to the rule change: "We’d like to see more players talk at the table because we feel it's an integral part of the game… If a player is all-in and there's no one left to act, you can say, 'I have two aces and a flush draw. I know I have you beat.' Obviously, there will be errors, but we're trying to get you guys to loosen up a bit and talk. We still want to protect against soft play and collusion."

    If you've watched the live broadcasts of the WSOP on ESPN or online, then you know players have been largely reticent in recent years, perhaps in part due to the WSOP's regulations. "We stream these events to showcase poker's best and what we see are players sitting in their shells," Effel (pictured) observed. "We've made it to where it's a little more open by extending the talking strategy, but we're asking for players who make the streamed or televised tables to verbally declare their actions and the amounts of them so we can get a little more talking at the table."

    WSOP Executive Director Ty Stewart elaborated that poker on television becoming more entertaining is a side benefit of allowing players to banter: "We've tightened poker up so much that players are afraid to use verbal strategy to out-man their opponents, which has been integral to poker. It takes poker back to its fundamental basis and its strategic intent. As a result, you get good TV."

    Also changing in 2012 is the WSOP's stance on excessive celebration, which it instituted following the antics of Hevad RaiNKhAN Khan (pictured) in 2007. Effel relayed, "We feel we went a little extreme with Hevad Khan jumping and having outbursts. We put a rule in place that prevented players from enjoying their success and celebrating when they won a hand. It's not a problem to celebrate a hand. It's okay to let that out. We don't feel it's okay to be disruptive, though, but we've rewritten the rule to say we want you to celebrate, just don't be crazy. It's up to our discretion."

    Stewart joked, "No Tournament Director at the WSOP should be confused with Paul Bart: Mall Cop. We want to have an authentic experience where people are excited about winning unthinkable money. They should be able to have excitement. There were cases last year where celebrations were penalized. A poker room isn't a church. We just think we need to set the tone to bring some of the fun back."
    They are obviously doing this because the ESPN broadcasts have become boring, but it's a good change.

    It was really dumb that you couldn't talk about the contents of your hand, even in a heads-up pot. Took away some of the psychological element of the game.

    I'm also glad that they retracted two years ago the dumb "no going on the internet while at the table" rule. However, it's still lame that they don't let you do this once you're in the money. So are they saying they are afraid of cheating once you're deeper in the tournament, but not afraid of it in the earlier and middle stages?

    I wrote this last July, glad to see the WSOP is a fan of mine!

    I’ve been following the Daniel Negreanu vs. Matt Savage debate/feud/disagreement since the two first started going back and forth on what is known as the “No Disclosure Rule” AKA “The No Talking About Your Hand Rule” AKA “The Jamie Gold Rule” at the 2011 WSOP. Since the initial Twitter flare-up the conversation has continued in the poker media and even in a lengthy segment on the QuadJacks.com podcast.

    Anyone who listened to the podcast and still thinks Savage is making sense should have their head examined. When given specific examples by Negreanu and QJ hosts, Savage 50% of the time said that type of table talk was fine, and 50% of the time said that was disclosing the contents of your hand. When asked what the difference was, Savage merely said “you can’t disclose the contents of your hand”. And in each case, with varying degrees of precision, they were simply giving hand ranges!

    This is the reason the rule is terrible; even the most well-known, well-respected, tournament director cannot explain the rule in a way that players understand, and can’t make a consistent ruling.

    Before I get into the crux of the problem I would like to point out that this is not a Matt Savage rule or his decision alone, but like other sports that have to tinker with rules before they are “good”, this one needs some serious tinkering. Savage is one of the best TD’s in the industry, and his reputation and motives are beyond reproach –that said, he is just wrong about this rule.

    Savage’s reasoning for the rule in a recent article on Pokerati.com is even more mind-boggling: to protect against verbal collusion. His main point of contention is that TD’s around the world cannot be called upon to know players’ relationships with other players. But if this were truly an issue –collusion—wouldn’t players with strong friendships be able to hash out a better arrangement than shouting “fold, I have Aces” to a friend of theirs? Even if you didn’t hash-out signals beforehand, wouldn’t a simple and subtle head shake be just as effective as blurting out fold?

    Do they not realize that Scotty Nguyen would be on the receiving end of a penalty for what has become one of the most iconic stories in poker history: “You call it’s gonna be all over baby!” Under the rule this type of table talk is disallowed since Scotty disclosed the contents of his hand. Or, what about the infamous story of Jack Strauss’s bluff on a 7-3-3-2 holding 7/2 where he told his opponent he could look at either card for $25, which after parting with a $25 chip caused his opponent to suspect a full-house and fold the best hand –Sorry Jack, that’s against the rules in today’s poker world (although it should be noted that this bluff took place in a cash game, but I still think it’s pertinent).

    I don’t think Savage and the TD’s understand the reason so many poker players are against this rule: This verbal jousting is a way to get a read on your opponent, if they want to play along of course; it’s not as if the other player has to answer! I have never in my 15 years of playing poker seen the situation that Savage claims to be guarding against.
    Furthermore, poker is a game of deception, so who is to say when you are telling the truth about your hand or lying? If other players’ have concerns over certain antics taking place at a table they can call the floor over –who can then look at each players’ cards and determine if any funny stuff is going on.

    If the TD’s are so interested in stopping collusion, why are they focusing on “Idiot Collusion” which even the greenest poker player would be able to spot on their own, when TD’s should be concerning themselves with preventing more subtle forms of cheating –since they are the experts after all—and protecting the REAL integrity of the game.

    Let’s not forget that poker is a self-policing game, and if players can’t protect themselves from “verbal” forms of cheating that’s their own fault. I’m sorry, but I have no sympathy for players in a game who do not speak up when other players are declaring their hand to another player in an obvious case of collusion. There is a difference between protecting the integrity of the game and holding players’ hands.

    I agree that players shouldn’t speak, or in any other way disclose the contents of their hand, in a multi-way pot, but heads-up it shouldn’t make a difference if a player says, “Can you beat top pair?” or “I can beat two pair.” If it elicits a reaction from their opponent than they have done their job as a poker player –if other players at the table suspect shenanigans there are recourses to see if their suspicions are correct. BUT, like I said earlier, chances are if there are shenanigans taking place it will be done covertly, not by blatantly disclosing your hand so your buddy folds!

    What is taking place is that TD’s are protecting novice poker players from professionals, and in my mind this is akin to the old home-game rule of “No Check-Raising”. A bad sports analogy for what is being done is banning play-action passes from football because certain people are better at it than others –or maybe outlawing lining up to spike the ball only to toss a pass.

    And at the same time I feel like they are trying to simplify their jobs by deterring difficult decisions –which is good for tournament directors, but that’s what they get paid for!
    I write things about poker at my Poker Blog and elsewhere on the Internets

  3. #3
    Gold LLL's Avatar
    Reputation
    203
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Karen Ave.
    Posts
    2,354
    Load Metric
    65716491
    "but we're asking for players who make the streamed or televised tables to verbally declare their actions and the amounts of them so we can get a little more talking at the table."

    This is interesting. Letting your chips speak will no longer be allowed?

  4. #4
    Gold Steve-O's Avatar
    Reputation
    36
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    1,812
    Load Metric
    65716491
    Quote Originally Posted by LLL View Post
    "but we're asking for players who make the streamed or televised tables to verbally declare their actions and the amounts of them so we can get a little more talking at the table."

    This is interesting. Letting your chips speak will no longer be allowed?
    No, they said they will be requesting them to do this, not forcing them to. Probably will help viewers follow along with the action as well
    I write things about poker at my Poker Blog and elsewhere on the Internets

  5. #5
    Gold Deal's Avatar
    Reputation
    104
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Mississauga
    Posts
    2,331
    Load Metric
    65716491
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve-O View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LLL View Post
    "but we're asking for players who make the streamed or televised tables to verbally declare their actions and the amounts of them so we can get a little more talking at the table."

    This is interesting. Letting your chips speak will no longer be allowed?
    No, they said they will be requesting them to do this, not forcing them to. Probably will help viewers follow along with the action as well
    They have to weigh their sponsor requested rules with the reality that a non trivial percentage of their customers speak very little English. I like that they are encouraging entertainment while maintaining the integrity of the game.

  6. #6
    Welcher jsearles22's Avatar
    Reputation
    561
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    6,690
    Load Metric
    65716491
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve-O View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LLL View Post
    "but we're asking for players who make the streamed or televised tables to verbally declare their actions and the amounts of them so we can get a little more talking at the table."

    This is interesting. Letting your chips speak will no longer be allowed?
    No, they said they will be requesting them to do this, not forcing them to. Probably will help viewers follow along with the action as well
    I heard on a radio podcast last night that they would be requiring players to declare their action at all final tables verbally or they would receive a penalty. Was that incorrect information?

  7. #7
    Gold Steve-O's Avatar
    Reputation
    36
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    1,812
    Load Metric
    65716491
    Quote Originally Posted by jsearles22 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve-O View Post

    No, they said they will be requesting them to do this, not forcing them to. Probably will help viewers follow along with the action as well
    I heard on a radio podcast last night that they would be requiring players to declare their action at all final tables verbally or they would receive a penalty. Was that incorrect information?
    That was not how it was explained on the conference call, the word used was request not require, and the word "penalty" was never used while discussing this.
    I write things about poker at my Poker Blog and elsewhere on the Internets

  8. #8
    Silver Sandwich's Avatar
    Reputation
    66
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    974
    Load Metric
    65716491
    Quote Originally Posted by jsearles22 View Post
    I heard on a radio podcast last night that they would be requiring players to declare their action at all final tables verbally or they would receive a penalty. Was that incorrect information?
    Yeah, I heard this same thing on two different podcasts -- doesn't make any sense. It seems like a case of poor listening comprehension or misplaced trusting of "sources".
    I would be surprised if Steve-O does not have it correct.

  9. #9
    Welcher jsearles22's Avatar
    Reputation
    561
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    6,690
    Load Metric
    65716491
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandwich View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jsearles22 View Post
    I heard on a radio podcast last night that they would be requiring players to declare their action at all final tables verbally or they would receive a penalty. Was that incorrect information?
    Yeah, I heard this same thing on two different podcasts -- doesn't make any sense. It seems like a case of poor listening comprehension or misplaced trusting of "sources".
    I would be surprised if Steve-O does not have it correct.
    I agree. I can only assume that Steve-O's interpretation is the only logical one. There is no way that if you are the BB and it folds around, the SB completes and you tap the table to check that you can earn a penalty for that. You also cant penalize someone at the final table for doing something that was more then ok for the first 10 DAYS of a tournament!

  10. #10
    Gold Shizzmoney's Avatar
    Reputation
    457
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    2,451
    Blog Entries
    1
    Load Metric
    65716491
    The requirement to verbally announce your action at the FT for live streams has hit a nerve with players, and even Seth Palansky, the WSOP PR head, after there were a series of confrontations from floor staff, during Event #5's ($1,500 PL Hold'em) final table.

    In Aguiar's tweets, he claimed that there were no threats on the players not verbalizing actions until after Daniel Negreanu was eliminated. He also claimed if they all refused to announce action, that the WSOP would stop play and not let the tourney play out.

    After, he blasted Jon Aguiar on twitter by retweeting this below from another user ......under the @WSOP twitter handle (it was later deleted).

    @wsop: @JonAguiar why are you the only one who cries all day every day about everything Adapt and stop sounding like a complete bitch
    Jon below gives the cliffs:

    Last edited by Shizzmoney; 06-02-2012 at 06:07 PM.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Rules regarding spam
    By Dan Druff in forum Flying Stupidity
    Replies: 83
    Last Post: 08-11-2012, 09:30 PM
  2. New rules for PFA *** PLEASE READ ***
    By Dan Druff in forum Flying Stupidity
    Replies: 48
    Last Post: 08-08-2012, 09:20 AM
  3. Forum Rules - Please Read (Updated 1/23/2016)
    By Dan Druff in forum Flying Stupidity
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-21-2012, 11:29 AM
  4. Replies: 23
    Last Post: 06-05-2012, 02:46 AM
  5. WSOP easing rules regarding table talk
    By Dan Druff in forum Flying Stupidity
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-09-2012, 10:35 AM