Let's talk about civil forfeiture and government abuses regarding that

[Dan Druff]

We know about this all too well as poker players. Basically the government likes to target "criminal" organizations with a lot of money or assets, and seize what they have.

That's fine for actual criminal organizations, such as drug dealers, but of course the government has decided to start abusing this and seeks to seize based upon likely financial gain, rather than guilt.

They went after a $2 million motel in Massachusetts, simply because there had been just 15 arrests there (none involving staff or ownership) over the entire life of the motel.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014...-his-property/

But when Caswell’s lawyer asked Vincent Kelley, a Drug Enforcement Administration agent, to explain how he picked certain properties to seize, that’s when the motel owner said he knew ”what the case was really about.”

The DEA agent revealed that their process included seeking out places that were linked to drug arrests, but they would only try to seize properties that had at least $50,000 in equity

Local police departments can evade state forfeiture laws by utilizing federal civil forfeiture laws, which allows law enforcement to simply take property from people without charging them with a crime. It is expensive and time consuming to get your property back, and many people simply don't have the resources to fight it.

A process known as equitable sharing allows state and federal governments to share the profits from these seizures. This gives incentive to local police departments to do the following:

1) Find targets for seizure which will net a lot of money through sale
2) Trump up some BS reason to make a civil forfeiture
3) Bring in federal agents to help with the seizure, thus allowing federal civil forfeiture laws to take precedent over any local or state laws protecting citizens
4) Local, state, and federal governments share the profits!

This is all very real, and not at all a conspiracy theory.

Recently, two poker players driving in Iowa had their $100,000 poker bankrolls seized during a bogus traffic stop, where no arrests were made, and it was later proven that the reason for stopping them was false. Not sure if this was done through equitable sharing, but it's pretty much the same crap either way.

Equitable sharing payments skyrocketed under Eric Holder's tenure at the DOJ...



... but this process has been in place since 1984, so Holder didn't invent it.

This really has to stop.

[Brittney Griner's Clit]

Druff is going to slowly but surely slip away to an Alex Jones like level. It's not going to be a good look.

[Brittney Griner's Clit]

Here's a link that you will like Alex.

http://www.infowars.com/alexa-caught...tive-websites/

[Sanlmar]

This shit that the government began doing after 9/11 sometimes makes you think that the terrorists won through un-intended consequences.

Yeah, we were never the same after 9/11 but....

We Have Met the Enemy and He Is Us.
Pogo

[Dan Druff]

This shit that the government began doing after 9/11 sometimes makes you think that the terrorists won through I intended consequences.

Yeah, we were never the same after 9/11 but....

We Have Met the Enemy and He Is Us.
Pogo

But this is all about money, not any sort of anti-terrorism paranoia.

So it's even worse.

[Brittney Griner's Clit]

[Sanlmar]

This shit that the government began doing after 9/11 sometimes makes you think that the terrorists won through I intended consequences.

Yeah, we were never the same after 9/11 but....

We Have Met the Enemy and He Is Us.
Pogo

But this is all about money, not any sort of anti-terrorism paranoia.

So it's even worse.

Expanded law enforcement powers post 9/11 granted under the guise of anti terrorism married with existing civil forfeiture laws.

I feel like you're leading me here to help flesh this out but I am too tired to document supporting evidence for my claim above.

Edward Snowden might post regarding the federal end.

Shout out to the NSA - how you boys doin tonight?

It's so good I gotta share the John Oliver piece. I know you're a fan Druff. I am too.

[chinamaniac]

This place is probably 5 miles from where I am sitting right now. One way or another it needed to go. Major heroin spot for junkies/prostitution and I think there have been some dead bodies turned up there over the years

[chinamaniac]

Id also guess that the 15 arrest thing sounds way low

[Sanlmar]

This place is probably 5 miles from where I am sitting right now. One way or another it needed to go. Major heroin spot for junkies/prostitution and I think there have been some dead bodies turned up there over the years

C'mon China,

YELP
Michael F.01/19/2013
Great motel. A lot of atmosphere!I lived here for about two weeks while on the road, and couldn't have asked for a better place. The staff has a very hands-off approach to everything, which... more

The motel is a red herring in an otherwise interesting discussion. If the owner didn't create a family atmosphere it should be forfeited?

[Dan Druff]

I agree that the place looks like a shithole, right down to the $285 weekly rate posting on the front of the building, but that shouldn't give the government the right to seize and sell it.

At worst, if the motel was a nuisance, its business license should have been revoked by the city until it took whatever steps it needed to clean up its act.

I don't see any legitimate need for civil forfeiture, especially when it does not involve national security.

This could mostly be fixed with two federal laws:

1) All property seized must be returned to the owner if related criminal charges are not pressed within x number of days (30, 60, whatever)

2) In the event that charges are pressed and a not guilty verdict is rendered, all property seized must be returned

This would stop a lot of the bogus and asset-targeted seizures, at least where criminal charges would not hold up.

And equitable sharing should be abolished.

[Dan Druff]

BUMP

Eric Holder finally did something right.

He has severely limited civil forfeiture, thus putting an end to bogus traffic stops which essentially amount to legalized stealing/scamming by city/county/federal governments.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/invest...ddc_story.html

[Sanlmar]

Wasn't civil forfeiture the whole premise of this show? I mean without the Ferraris what do you got?

[Dan Druff]

Wasn't civil forfeiture the whole premise of this show? I mean without the Ferraris what do you got?

Get real, Crocket and Tubbs cleaned up Miami in the '80s by busting/killing real bad guys.

They weren't sitting behind a billboard in Key Largo targeting out of state plates for $2000.

[NaturalBornHustler]

I JUST read an article on this....about a city that had a HUGE % of revenue coming from seizures....was a big city too.

Edit - it was Philly I think. Still can't find article might have been on Vice.

[Corrigan]

A lot of this had to do with the war on drugs too, where they could just seize whatever property they wanted of yours if they even suspected drug involvement, without even having to charge you of a crime.

[herbertstemple]

Wasn't civil forfeiture the whole premise of this show? I mean without the Ferraris what do you got?

Get real, Crocket and Tubbs cleaned up Miami in the '80s by busting/killing real bad guys.

They weren't sitting behind a billboard in Key Largo targeting out of state plates for $2000.

Sonny Crockett was a sissy, Tubbs did all the work.

[Dan Druff]

A lot of this had to do with the war on drugs too, where they could just seize whatever property they wanted of yours if they even suspected drug involvement, without even having to charge you of a crime.

Yes, I know, and that was actually a reasonable application for it (though this also got abused, because the requirements for seizure were too loose).

Civil forfeiture originally existed so they could seize $3 million in cash that they find on a suspected drug dealer, who has no other form of verifiable income. It technically isn't a crime to be driving around with a huge sum of cash, so this allowed cops to seize obvious drug money without catching the transaction occurring.

Unfortunately, this morphed into targeting out-of-state cars on the highway, where a "drug search" would take place (without any reasonable suspicion), and any cash in the vehicle was seized. Even if the driver had a reasonable explanation (such as just having come from a poker tournament), the cash was seized anyway, and the driver had to prove that his cash wasn't acquired criminally. Most times the legal bills of getting the money back exceeded the value of the seizure, so people just gave up.

So what started as a reasonable idea turned into legalized stealing by police departments and local governments.

This could have been fixed by setting a very high ceiling for seizure of funds (meaning they can't grab something $5,000 without charging the person with a crime), as well as setting various other tight restrictions on civil forfeiture of real estate and/or property (basically not allowing it without strong evidence of being directly purchased with criminally acquired funds). There also should be a burden of proof on the police department to where they must show an existing prior investigation on the individual in question, so they can't just pop randoms on the highway and take their stuff. This would allow legitimate seizure from terrorists and drug dealers being investigated, but prevent average citizens from being targeted.

But I'm totally okay with just trashing the whole thing, as this originally well-meaning program has morphed into legalized stealing from innocent people, and perhaps it's better to just close this loophole completely and be done with it.

[Corrigan]

Yes, I know, and that was actually a reasonable application for it

No it is not.

[limitles]

Totalitarian democracy is a term made famous by Israeli historian J. L. Talmon to refer to a system of government in which lawfully elected representatives maintain the integrity of a nation state whose citizens, while granted the right to vote, have little or no participation in the decision-making process of the government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarian_democracy