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Thread: JFK never should have been President

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hurdleking View Post
    Druff, et al......if you truly are interested in what is "right" under our legal system please take the time to read Judge Richard Posner's recent opinion which, not to put too fine a point on it, eviscerates the argument for voter ids. Before you jump to a partisan conclusion know that Posner is a Reagan appointee who is truly one of the most cerebral and prolific appellate judges in our country.
    I haven't read this, but I doubt it will change my mind. The bottom line is that not requiring ID to vote opens up a massive hole for potential voter fraud, and even if the actual occurrence of fraud is minimal, there is still no reason for the hole.

    It's like saying builders in nice neighborhoods shouldn't install locks on the doors, because there's hardly any crime and it's a waste of everyone's time and money to have locks.

    You don't need a crime epidemic to justify a simple and painless deterrent.
    It seems like you are saying I don't need to read that because my mind is made up. You also say that in a year's time anyone can find time to get an id. Once again how do you know what a poor person can or can't do. I love how people of means are so acquainted with what it is like to live with zero resources. Of course it does not matter since republicans do not try to pass legislation that would have any negative affects on themselves. I see you complain when you can't go to any doctor under Obama care. Sucks having limited options like the poor doesn't it. I guess wealthy people should not have to do leg work. You want a poor person to make who knows how many bus transfers so your republican agenda can be adhered to.

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    Feelin' Stronger Every Day tony bagadonuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyB View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by tony bagadonuts View Post

    It's used correctly guy, and it's not so much a comment on your posts on this thread as it is your posts in general when you're being a smug shit.
    Ok. Good critique. That makes sense that you would be commenting on my full oeuvre.

    I'm really trying to be kinder and less dismissive of people. Thank you for your help.

    In the future, let's say there was a thread that I had zero posts in and was generally not a part of. If my first post in that thread called someone an "asshole" and told them to "shut the hell up.", that would really be considered dickish and dismissive, right? So I definitely shouldn't do that?
    Not entirely unfair, and if you are serious about trying to be less of an ass then I'll work harder at not getting annoyed if you fall short.

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ltrainkoja View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post

    I haven't read this, but I doubt it will change my mind. The bottom line is that not requiring ID to vote opens up a massive hole for potential voter fraud, and even if the actual occurrence of fraud is minimal, there is still no reason for the hole.

    It's like saying builders in nice neighborhoods shouldn't install locks on the doors, because there's hardly any crime and it's a waste of everyone's time and money to have locks.

    You don't need a crime epidemic to justify a simple and painless deterrent.
    It seems like you are saying I don't need to read that because my mind is made up. You also say that in a year's time anyone can find time to get an id. Once again how do you know what a poor person can or can't do. I love how people of means are so acquainted with what it is like to live with zero resources. Of course it does not matter since republicans do not try to pass legislation that would have any negative affects on themselves. I see you complain when you can't go to any doctor under Obama care. Sucks having limited options like the poor doesn't it. I guess wealthy people should not have to do leg work. You want a poor person to make who knows how many bus transfers so your republican agenda can be adhered to.
    See, the above is class warfare nonsense which dismisses one's ability to have empathy for the poor.

    If obtaining ID required monthly trips to the DMV or a recurring monthly expense of $15, I would agree with you that the very poor might have a problem with it.

    But that's not the case.

    We're talking about a one-time fee of $15. We're talking about a one-time effort to get down to the DMV to get the ID. I have a very hard time believing that anyone, regardless of how poor, could not do both of these things on a one time basis, within a year's time.

    It sounds powerful to say, "$15 seems like nothing to you, but you haven't been dirt poor and don't realize how much money that really can be to someone", but that is complete nonsense. Everyone in the US can afford a one-time $15 fee. This isn't a third-world country where some people make $2.67 per week. In the US, even the poorest people regularly spend sums like $15.

    And again, Republicans are typically not against waiving these ID fees for the very poor, so why do you keep harping on this?

    Look, it's very simple.

    Democrats know that the vast majority of those without ID will vote for their candidates. Even if they know deep down that the voter ID is not violating anyone's rights, and that obtaining ID is not actually burdensome, they will keep claiming that it is denying the rights of minorities and poor people because that's what they have to say in order to fight new voter ID efforts. That's how politics works. You say whatever you have to in order to further your party's interests.

    People claiming that ID is so difficult to obtain are simply grasping at straws. The truth is that most people without ID just don't feel like getting it, for whatever reason. Maybe they are philosophically against ID, maybe they are creatures of habit and don't feel like getting one, and maybe they've already established a lifestyle without one and don't see a need to get it. But the bottom line is that this is a conscious choice, rather than a matter of inaccessibility.

    What is the point of having laws about who can and can't vote, if there is no way to verify the identity of the people voting?

    If you're not going to require ID, we might as well let kids, felons, and duplicate voters show up to the polls. Why have the illusion of, "You can't do this" when in reality all of them actually can if they want to?

     
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      Sloppy Joe: $15 is like a cord of wood, bro

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    Why can't felons vote after their incarceration period is over?

    This is an issue that no one, including myself, cares about but if the point of the penal system is to rehabilitate then what's the harm?

    Lol more Democrat votes probably.

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sloppy Joe View Post
    Why can't felons vote after their incarceration period is over?

    This is an issue that no one, including myself, cares about but if the point of the penal system is to rehabilitate then what's the harm?

    Lol more Democrat votes probably.
    In many states they are allowed.

    Much of the "felons can't vote" thing has to do with parole, where you are technically still serving your sentence, but are doing so with most freedoms of normal society.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sloppy Joe View Post
    Why can't felons vote after their incarceration period is over?

    This is an issue that no one, including myself, cares about but if the point of the penal system is to rehabilitate then what's the harm?

    Lol more Democrat votes probably.
    Rand Paul has come out in favor of restoring voting to felons. It will be interesting to see the reactions if he brings this up during the presidential campaign.

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    http://www.latimes.com/business/hilt...13-column.html

    A conservative judge's devastating take on why voter ID laws are evil


    In a rational world, the debate over voter ID laws would be ended by the eloquent, incisive and angry opinion issued late last week by U.S. Circuit Judge Richard A. Posner of Chicago in a case concerning Wisconsin.

    But this isn't a rational world. So not only will the debate continue, but Posner's opinion failed even to sway his fellow judges on the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals. The court split 5-5 on Posner's request for an en banc -- that is, full court -- rehearing of the Wisconsin case, in which a three-judge panel already had cleared the state's ID law to go into effect for next month's election. That meant Posner's request was turned down and his opinion was in the nature of a dissent.

    As it happens, the Supreme Court has stepped in and suspended the Wisconsin law, probably invalidating it for the upcoming polls. But Posner's 30-page dissent, laid out in his typical lucid and direct manner, is as exacting an examination as you're likely to find of why voter ID laws are corrupt and iniquitous, and why their usual rationale -- to combat voter fraud -- is a lie.


    Before walking through Posner's opinion, a few words about why he's important. Posner, 75, is no wooly-headed liberal, but a card-carrying conservative who was appointed to the circuit bench by Ronald Reagan in 1981. He's widely regarded as the smartest jurist in the federal judiciary, and was identified in 2000 by Fred Shapiro of Yale Law School as the most-cited legal scholar of all time. (Shapiro's full list is here.)

    While still unquestionably conservative, Posner has been moving away from Republican orthodoxy on many issues, or perhaps it's more accurate to say that today's Republicans and conservatives have moved away from his principles. You can get a taste of that from his opinion last month overturning gay-marriage bans in Indiana and Wisconsin, finding that their grounds for such discrimination "are not only conjectural; they are totally implausible." For a taste of how Posner treats ill-prepared lawyers in court, listen to these clips from the oral arguments in that gay-marriage case, and thank your lucky stars you weren't the attorneys tasked with defending the bans.


    Posner's dissent in the Wisconsin voter ID case is especially telling, because he wrote the so-called Crawford decision in 2007 upholding Indiana's voter ID law, in which he was upheld by the Supreme Court. But he has since recanted. In a 2013 book, he accepted the view that such laws are properly regarded as "a means of voter suppression rather than fraud prevention." That's the view that informs his latest opinion.


    "There is only one motivation for imposing burdens on voting that are ostensibly designed to discourage voter-impersonation fraud," he writes, "and that is to discourage voting by persons likely to vote against the party responsible for imposing the burdens." More specifically, he observes, photo ID laws are "highly correlated with a state's having a Republican governor and Republican control of the legislature and appear to be aimed at limiting voting by minorities, particularly blacks." In Wisconsin, according to evidence presented at trial, the voter ID law would disenfranchise 300,000 residents, or 9% of registered voters.


    Posner systematically demolishes every argument mustered in support of voter ID laws. Combating voter fraud? "There is compelling evidence that voter-impersonation fraud is essentially nonexistent in Wisconsin." Assertions about voter fraud are "a mere fig leaf for efforts to disenfranchise voters." He adds that "some of the 'evidence' of voter-impersonation fraud is downright goofy, if not paranoid, such as the nonexistent buses that according to the 'True the Vote' movement [a voter suppression organization originating in the tea party movement] transport foreigners and reservation Indians to polling places."
    Indeed, Posner writes, lists of the states that impose the strictest requirements "imply that a number of conservative states try to make it difficult for people who are outside the mainstream, whether because of poverty or race or problems with the English language...to vote."


    How about the argument that photo ID is required to board a plane and for many other routine actions, so what's the harm in requiring it for voting? Posner points out that the requirement of photo ID for flying is "a common misconception." Nor is it true, as the three-judge appeals panel had it, that photo ID is required to pick up a prescription (not so in Wisconsin and 34 other states, Posner observes); open a bank account (not true anywhere in the country) or buy a gun (not true under federal law at gun shows, flea markets, or online).


    Then there's the argument that getting a photo ID is easy and cheap, and therefore that people without them must not care enough about voting to bother. The three-judge panel wrote that obtaining a photo ID merely requires people "to scrounge up a birth certificate and stand in line at the office that issues driver's licenses." Posner replies that he himself "has never seen his birth certificate and does not know how he would go about 'scrounging' it up." Posner appends a sheaf of documents handed to an applicant seeking a photo ID for whom no birth certificate could be found in state records. It ran to 12 pages.


    As for its supposedly negligible cost, "that's an easy assumption for federal judges to make, since we are given photo IDs by court security free of charge. And we have upper-middle-class salaries. Not everyone is so fortunate." He cites a study placing the expense of obtaining documentation at $75 to $175 -- which even when adjusted for inflation is far higher than "the $1.50 poll tax outlawed by the 24th amendment in 1964."


    Posner places Wisconsin's argument for its voter ID law within a "fact-free cocoon." Last week, the state's governor, Scott Walker, defended the law by asserting it's worthwhile whether it stops "one, 100 or 1,000" illegal votes." Leaving aside that the number of illegal votes for which there's any evidence is zero, the very idea of disenfranchising 300,000 voters in the hope of stopping even 1,000 illegal votes is beyond fatuous, and well into the category of hopelessly cynical. Walker's lawyers tried to make that case before Judge Posner, his written opinion shows what he thought of it.

     
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      Hurdleking: Thanks CD that is the opinion I was referring to in my post

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    Full disclosure: I couldn't finish reading the OP. Your saying one of the most hated right wing crooks was cheated by one of the most honest and beloved presidents ever. L.fucking.O.L.
    Edit: Ok toughed it out


    What a major league crock of horse shit. Pretty much anytime you see a conservative blaming liberals for rigging the vote, you can bet your ass it's horse shit.

    The Liberal mind set is like that of a scientist, lay out the facts, no bs, honestly inform the voters on the issues and may the most votes win.

    The conservative mind set is we're right no matter what. Fuck facts, fuck science, fuck the majority, praise god.
    example
    Get Roger Ailes to open a right wing propaganda outlet, disguise it as a news channel and call it fair n balanced.
    Let's do some redistricting to subvert the will of the voters and keep the majority.
    Send this list of smears and bullshit talking points to our massive army of talk radio and other spin doctors and bombard the voters with lies.


    Republicans would be a small, radical fringe group if they were honest.

    Druff you're too honest to be a real conservative. Maybe it's because your not a evangelical or something, those fucking clowns geeez.

    Druff, Obama loves you...
    Last edited by FPS_Russia; 10-14-2014 at 02:49 PM.

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    PFA Emeritus Crowe Diddly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FPS_Russia View Post
    Full disclosure: I couldn't finish reading the OP. Your saying one of the most hated right wing crooks was cheated by one of the most honest and beloved presidentst ever. L.fucking.O.L.
    Oh, nobody told you they are all crooks?




    They are all crooks. Some also do awesome stuff, some do terrible stuff, and some die in their bathtub. Somewhere along the way, they've usually committed some staggeringly bad decisions, or good decisions with evil consequences, whatever, but hey, humans, y'know?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crowe Diddly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FPS_Russia View Post
    Full disclosure: I couldn't finish reading the OP. Your saying one of the most hated right wing crooks was cheated by one of the most honest and beloved presidentst ever. L.fucking.O.L.
    Oh, nobody told you they are all crooks?




    They are all crooks. Some also do awesome stuff, some do terrible stuff, and some die in their bathtub. Somewhere along the way, they've usually committed some staggeringly bad decisions, or good decisions with evil consequences, whatever, but hey, humans, y'know?
    Obama's not a crook and has done a good job as President. Oh the banks, nm they're all crooks, but Obama is the nut low on the crook scale and still be electable.
    It's really hard to filter out all the years of constant right wing lies about Obama and give him a fair grade, even for me.

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    Canadrunk limitles's Avatar
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    There is one issue that I'm switching my position, immigration and the border.
    I used to be color blind mr liberal on this, they're honest hard working people. Who cares if border security is weak, Mexican food is great etc...

    Since then, I've noticed time and again how when a Mexican immigrant become a boss for a good employer in the USA. Pretty much any hiring he does is based on racial lines, not long before it's pure Mexican immigrants. Seen this so many times it blows my mind. They stick together big time.

    Here's some shit flying under the radar tho.

    At least 65% of females in my orbit are either with/married to a Mexican immigrant, has a bunch of kids with a M.I. or pretty much only dates dudes from Mexico. I've had girls tell me over and over how they got 10 to 12 inch dicks that curve up etc.. One girl even showed me a pic of her short beer bellied boyfriends 10 incher, it's fucking true.

    Being racist, taking the jobs and chicks, fuck that, build a fence, deport....

     
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      jsearles22: Deserves red

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    Plutonium lol wow's Avatar
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    wow

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    can I just point out the fact that anyone who is too lazy to get an ID is NOT VOTING

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    Quote Originally Posted by tony bagadonuts View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyB View Post

    Ok. Good critique. That makes sense that you would be commenting on my full oeuvre.

    I'm really trying to be kinder and less dismissive of people. Thank you for your help.

    In the future, let's say there was a thread that I had zero posts in and was generally not a part of. If my first post in that thread called someone an "asshole" and told them to "shut the hell up.", that would really be considered dickish and dismissive, right? So I definitely shouldn't do that?
    Not entirely unfair, and if you are serious about trying to be less of an ass then I'll work harder at not getting annoyed if you fall short.
    dirty b owns your ass over and over

     
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      varys: really?

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    Feelin' Stronger Every Day tony bagadonuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big dick View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by tony bagadonuts View Post

    Not entirely unfair, and if you are serious about trying to be less of an ass then I'll work harder at not getting annoyed if you fall short.
    dirty b owns your ass over and over
    How will I ever be able to sleep tonight?

    Actually it's Barry who may have trouble sleeping with you all up in that ass.

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    Barry ass raping Todd up in this ugly bitch

    Druff has yet to post a single verified instance of 'voter fraud'

    the whole voter fraud issue is such a joke

    the GOP is so relentless trying to pass various 'redistricting' legislation even on a municipal level

    the idea that 'voter fraud' is even a mainstream talking point is fucking hilarious

     
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      Muck Ficon: You have a lot of experience with ass raping don't you?
      
      big dick: .

  19. #99
    Platinum JUSTIFIEDhomicide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ltrainkoja View Post

    It seems like you are saying I don't need to read that because my mind is made up. You also say that in a year's time anyone can find time to get an id. Once again how do you know what a poor person can or can't do. I love how people of means are so acquainted with what it is like to live with zero resources. Of course it does not matter since republicans do not try to pass legislation that would have any negative affects on themselves. I see you complain when you can't go to any doctor under Obama care. Sucks having limited options like the poor doesn't it. I guess wealthy people should not have to do leg work. You want a poor person to make who knows how many bus transfers so your republican agenda can be adhered to.
    See, the above is class warfare nonsense which dismisses one's ability to have empathy for the poor.

    If obtaining ID required monthly trips to the DMV or a recurring monthly expense of $15, I would agree with you that the very poor might have a problem with it.

    But that's not the case.

    We're talking about a one-time fee of $15. We're talking about a one-time effort to get down to the DMV to get the ID. I have a very hard time believing that anyone, regardless of how poor, could not do both of these things on a one time basis, within a year's time.

    It sounds powerful to say, "$15 seems like nothing to you, but you haven't been dirt poor and don't realize how much money that really can be to someone", but that is complete nonsense. Everyone in the US can afford a one-time $15 fee. This isn't a third-world country where some people make $2.67 per week. In the US, even the poorest people regularly spend sums like $15.

    And again, Republicans are typically not against waiving these ID fees for the very poor, so why do you keep harping on this?

    Look, it's very simple.

    Democrats know that the vast majority of those without ID will vote for their candidates. Even if they know deep down that the voter ID is not violating anyone's rights, and that obtaining ID is not actually burdensome, they will keep claiming that it is denying the rights of minorities and poor people because that's what they have to say in order to fight new voter ID efforts. That's how politics works. You say whatever you have to in order to further your party's interests.

    People claiming that ID is so difficult to obtain are simply grasping at straws. The truth is that most people without ID just don't feel like getting it, for whatever reason. Maybe they are philosophically against ID, maybe they are creatures of habit and don't feel like getting one, and maybe they've already established a lifestyle without one and don't see a need to get it. But the bottom line is that this is a conscious choice, rather than a matter of inaccessibility.

    What is the point of having laws about who can and can't vote, if there is no way to verify the identity of the people voting?

    If you're not going to require ID, we might as well let kids, felons, and duplicate voters show up to the polls. Why have the illusion of, "You can't do this" when in reality all of them actually can if they want to?

    It makes me sick to listen to you try to speak for the poor. You don't have a fucking clue.

    And before you without a doubt defend yourself, you make it seem like you have a clue how easy it is for anyone besides yourself to just "take a day" and head off to the DMV. Poor people are desperate. They don't just have a day to go to the DMV, and of all things spend money while not making any in return. You don't know how good you have it my friend.

    You also try to generalize shit, like anyone can afford 15$. OK, no... First of all it's not just 15$. Are you walking to the DMV? How do you know where the DMV is and how much time and money it takes to get to one? you don't. You're just generalizing shit to help it fit your argument.

     
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      tyde: lmao
    Last edited by JUSTIFIEDhomicide; 10-15-2014 at 09:32 AM.
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    Welcher jsearles22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JUSTIFIEDhomicide View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post

    See, the above is class warfare nonsense which dismisses one's ability to have empathy for the poor.

    If obtaining ID required monthly trips to the DMV or a recurring monthly expense of $15, I would agree with you that the very poor might have a problem with it.

    But that's not the case.

    We're talking about a one-time fee of $15. We're talking about a one-time effort to get down to the DMV to get the ID. I have a very hard time believing that anyone, regardless of how poor, could not do both of these things on a one time basis, within a year's time.

    It sounds powerful to say, "$15 seems like nothing to you, but you haven't been dirt poor and don't realize how much money that really can be to someone", but that is complete nonsense. Everyone in the US can afford a one-time $15 fee. This isn't a third-world country where some people make $2.67 per week. In the US, even the poorest people regularly spend sums like $15.

    And again, Republicans are typically not against waiving these ID fees for the very poor, so why do you keep harping on this?

    Look, it's very simple.

    Democrats know that the vast majority of those without ID will vote for their candidates. Even if they know deep down that the voter ID is not violating anyone's rights, and that obtaining ID is not actually burdensome, they will keep claiming that it is denying the rights of minorities and poor people because that's what they have to say in order to fight new voter ID efforts. That's how politics works. You say whatever you have to in order to further your party's interests.

    People claiming that ID is so difficult to obtain are simply grasping at straws. The truth is that most people without ID just don't feel like getting it, for whatever reason. Maybe they are philosophically against ID, maybe they are creatures of habit and don't feel like getting one, and maybe they've already established a lifestyle without one and don't see a need to get it. But the bottom line is that this is a conscious choice, rather than a matter of inaccessibility.

    What is the point of having laws about who can and can't vote, if there is no way to verify the identity of the people voting?

    If you're not going to require ID, we might as well let kids, felons, and duplicate voters show up to the polls. Why have the illusion of, "You can't do this" when in reality all of them actually can if they want to?

    It makes me sick to listen to you try to speak for the poor. You don't have a fucking clue.

    And before you without a doubt defend yourself, you make it seem like you have a clue how easy it is for anyone besides yourself to just "take a day" and head off to the DMV. Poor people are desperate. They don't just have a day to go to the DMV, and of all things spend money while not making any in return. You don't know how good you have it my friend.

    You also try to generalize shit, like anyone can afford 15$. OK, no... First of all it's not just 15$. Are you walking to the DMV? How do you know where the DMV is and how much time and money it takes to get to one? you don't. You're just generalizing shit to help it fit your argument.
    So if that's all true, how are they gonna vote?

     
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      manowar: Point jsearles
    It's hilarious that we as a society think everyone can be a dr, a lawyer, an engineer. Some people are just fucking stupid. Why can't we just accept that?

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