Time for a Change in Life

[Hockey Guy]

No, this is not an anti-mastubation thread.

 

Let's face it, I've been married for 25+ years so I ain't giving that shit up

Warning long read:

I think I just quit my job.

They’ve been talking about closing the facility that I work @ for the last 4 years & I’ve been here for almost 7. 3 years ago they gave us a letter telling us our jobs were being eliminated & I/we would receive a package & then reversed this because they found out, ironically from operations(us), that it wasn’t that simple because of the nature of the operation and the fact it’s a publicly traded company. You’d think management in Canada would have figured this out but it got all the way to the CEO in the US who wouldn’t sign off on it citing the very reasons we had been telling management.

Chaos kinda ensued as people had went out looking for jobs & had decided to leave thinking they were getting a package or bailing on a sinking ship & had made plans to get on with their life. It was a clusterfuck, to say the least, & they finally came back 6 months later & said they would honour this buyout letter to anyone who had received it. To their surprise, probably because I had only been an employee for 3 years & the package wouldn’t be all that big, I requested the buyout & was ready to move on when they basically begged me to stay since they had thrust me into a lead role even though I didn’t want it & they were basically screwed. I reluctantly agreed because I had a great working relationship with this boss & liked the people I worked day to day with.

Fast forward 2 years:
Well they finally decided to build a smaller facility last year because this one is way over-sized & it’s now nearing completion & almost ready to come online. I was always under the impression that when this plant opened the workforce was going to be reduced & I would be let go with a package, at my request & for personal reasons, although it’s been super secret & they really haven’t told us a thing other than hearing grapevine shit. It’s kinda BS because they seem to think that we(me & another lead) are going to stick around to train other operators how to run the new plant even though it’s getting a totally different computer system that we’ve never seen & it’s all 100% brand new equipment to us.

I had a sense about 2 months ago that things weren’t going to work out the way I wanted when I got word from a co-worker, & the guy hugely involved in building & then commissioning the new plant while de-commissioning the old one, that they were fucking him around because, like me, he also requested a package. Long story short, he finally gave them an ultimatum about the package & he would stay until Feb. of next year or until everything was running properly & the old plant was put to bed or he was leaving Sept 17th.

Well he found out that they were just jacking him around all this time & his requests & concerns were never forwarded to anybody who could make that decision & they were trying to stall him at every turn until the plant was done. He also found out from HR that there are no packages planned for our area at all which means I’m out of luck too. I wasn’t too worried about getting fucked around on this package because everyone who had gotten one in the past were happy with them & they were treated fairly & honestly. It looks like the company has decided to fuck people over which is bad for them because when word gets out that management has been lying, & it’s already out, they will have trouble keeping employees. Why would anyone stay & work here when they don’t follow industry standards?

Anyway, the boss who begged me to stay 2 years earlier & had straight out lied to this other guy came to see me today & asked me to do a bunch of extra work that this co-worker had been doing. I informed him that I was absolutely not qualified to do what he was requesting as it was pretty specialized stuff. I then quizzed him about the package I had requested & could tell right away that he was uncomfortable & talking out his ass & no package was forthcoming. I then told him that I wasn’t very happy that we were being given no information & that they better make a decision quick because my personal situation had taken a dramatic turn for the worse & there was no chance I was going to do as he requested. I think he already knows I’m walking anyway but we’ll see what happens.

It looks like I’m walking away from a good paying job &, unlike bottomset, this one is real. At least my wife is onboard with the decision & just wants me home after 13 years working in camp situations & having our financial house in order.

Does anybody think I have a case to hold them to that buy-out letter? I’m thinking not since I agreed to stay but would it even be worth having a lawyer look at it? It would sure be nice to walk away with a package(est. 25-30K) but, I’ll be fine either way.

Has anybody else gone through a re-structuring that caused a pretty dramatic lifestyle change? I’m not worried about finding another job right away, even though I’m turning 50 next month, with my connections in the industry it shouldn't be a problem but it is going to be a big change being home every night. I’ll be taking a pay cut but I’m looking forward to the change since this is actually the longest I've ever worked continually in 1 place in my life.

Anyway, I’m probably going to be less & less active on the site in the coming months unless I get another job where I can surf the net for 12 hours a day,

but I’ll try to check in when I can.

[herbertstemple]

Stay as long as you can to suck every penny out of this company and into your pocket you can.

[zealanddonk]

As long as your new job has bears breaking into the control room, whatever you choose to do is all good.

On a practical note, regardless of the industry I'd recommend making sure you had a new job to go to before leaving this job.

With that said, might free up time for you to become a contractor or start up your own business depending what exactly you do and what you know.

[danzo]

fuckin' oil companies. the greed, I'm appalled.

edit: sorry to hear you lost your job.

[Hockey Guy]

Stay as long as you can to suck every penny out of this company and into your pocket you can.

That plan is already in progress.

After this shift I'm supposed to return on Oct 15th, otherwise known as payday. I wonder if I'll show up for the plane?

[limitles]

Stay as long as you can to suck every penny out of this company and into your pocket you can.

Looks complicated but there's always a chance.

Qualifying for Severance Pay

An employee qualifies for severance pay when his or her employment is severed and he or she:

• has worked for the employer for five or more years (including all the time spent by the employee in employment with the employer, whether continuous or not and whether active or not)
  and
• his or her employer:
  
  • has a payroll in Ontario of at least $2.5 million;
    or
  • severed the employment of 50 or more employees in a six-month period because all or part of the business closed.

See also: Severance Tool
Amount of Severance Pay

To calculate the amount of severance pay an employee is entitled to receive, multiply the employee's regular wages for a regular work week by the sum of:

• the number of completed years of employment;
  and
• the number of completed months of employment divided by 12 for a year that is not completed.

The maximum amount of severance pay required to be paid under the ESAis 26 weeks.

When to Pay Severance Pay

An employee must receive severance pay either seven days after the employee's employment is severed or on what would have been the employee's next regular pay day, whichever is later.
However, an employer may pay severance pay in installments with thewritten agreement of the employee or the approval of the Director of Employment Standards, Ministry of Labour. An installment plan cannot be for more than three years. If an employer fails to make a scheduled payment, all of the employee's severance pay becomes due immediately.
Exemptions from Severance Pay

Many of these exemptions are complex. Please contact the Employment Standards Information Centre, 1-800-531-5551, if you need help with these exemptions. Please also refer to the Special Rule Tool.
An employee is not entitled to severance pay if he or she:

• has refused an offer of "reasonable alternative employment" with the employer;
• has refused "reasonable alternative employment" that is available to the employee through a seniority system;
• is severed and retires on a full pension (not including Canada Pension Plan benefits);
• has his or her employment severed because of a strike, as long as the employer can show that the economic effects of the strike caused the closing of part or all of the business;
• is employed in construction, including employees who are working off-site and who are commonly associated in work or collective bargaining with employees who work at the construction site;
• is employed in the on-site maintenance of buildings, structures, roads, sewers, pipelines, mains, tunnels or other works;
• was employed to provide professional services, personal support services or homemaking services as defined in the Home Care and Community Services Act, 1994 for an employer who had a contract to provide those services with a community care access corporation within the meaning of the Community Care Access Corporations Act, 2001, if the employee's arrangement with the employer allowed the employee to elect to work or not to work when requested to do so by the employer and the employee had his or her employment severed before October 1, 2012;
• is guilty of wilful misconduct, disobedience or wilful neglect of duty that is not trivial and was not condoned by the employer; or
• has lost his or her employment because the contract of employment is impossible to perform or has been frustrated by an unexpected or unforeseen event or circumstance. This does not include bankruptcy or insolvency or when the contract is frustrated or impossible to perform as the result of an injury or illness suffered by an employee.

See also: Severance Tool
Recall Rights

A "recall right" is the right of an employee on layoff to be called back to work by his or her employer under a term or condition of employment. If an employee is entitled to both termination pay--because of a layoff of 35 weeks or more--and severance pay, he or she must make the same choice for both. Please refer to "Recall Rights" in the "Termination of Employment" chapter.
Wrongful Dismissal

The rules under the ESA about termination and severance of employment are minimum requirements. An employee may choose instead to sue an employer in a court of law for "wrongful dismissal." An employee cannot sue an employer for wrongful dismissal and file a claim for termination pay or severance pay with the ministry for the same termination or severance of employment. The employee must choose one or the other and may wish to obtain legal advice concerning their rights.
Greater Right to Termination Notice, Pay in Lieu, and Severance Pay

The ESA provides minimum standards only. Some employees may have rights under the common law or other legislation that give them greater rights relating to notice of termination (or termination pay) and severance pay than the ESA. Employers and employees may wish to obtain legal advice concerning their rights.

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[Hockey Guy]

The only problem with the severence package is I get nothing if I quit.

I was honest with them months ago that because of personal family reasons I wouldn't want to be part of it after the new plant started & I should be closer to home ASAP. I even told them I might not make it to this date & they all understood & now it looks like they expect me to stay or they think I'll quit anyway & then they save any package.

The only way I could force them to give me the package is if that letter was somehow still enforcable but I doubt it is.

Last Feb. they also stiffed a bunch of us on our bonus even though I got a great performance review but I kinda took that as a good thing since I figured they knew we were going to get a package anyway in a few months & wanted to spread the bonus money around to employees who were staying or in their plans after the restructuring. I figured they might as well keep them happy although it backfired on them & caused a lot of resentment & morale issues among some guys, even guys that got a bonus, but not from my end.

[Dan Druff]

Can you just do a really awful job and/or show up for work erratically, to where they will fire you? Or does that also disqualify you from the severance package?

I had something similar occur in 1998. I had been there 3 years.

It was the first after-college job I had, and it was for a defense contractor.

Basically they were moving my department to Alabama (lol), and they gave everyone 2 choices:

1) Come to Alabama (lol again)
-or-
2) Stick around and you will be reassigned to another department

So of course everyone except for the department lead elected to either stay behind or get another job.

Keep in mind that I worked as a programmer, and this was right as the dot-com boom was gaining steam, so jobs were plentiful.

At the same time, unrelated to the department move, was the matter of my pay.

Simply put, it sucked. See, they were paying new hires shit salaries when I came aboard in 1995, because the industry was in a big depression. The the dot-com boom happened, and it reversed. Suddenly the kids out of college were expecting (and getting) a lot more $, so people like me hired in 1995 were getting paid LESS than the new hires fresh out of college in 1998.

How was this possible? Because my raises came from a "raise pool", which the project manager divvies up between employees based upon their performance. The new hires get their salary from a different pool, so it's way easier to hire a guy for $10k more than I'm making than to give me a $10k raise.

Well, I approached them and said, "This is BS. No way I'm accepting that 22-year-olds out of college are making more than me because of this technicality. Fix this or I'm walking."

They stalled and stalled and stalled. I kept being told, "It's being decided upon, but the chances are looking great" or "It's pretty much happening, but for legal reasons I can't tell you that the answer is yes." But I was never given anything in writing indicating my raise was forthcoming.

In the meantime, I was tasked with the very important transitional role to get everything working and ready to move to Alabama. So had I given them the middle finger and went to another company, the transition would have been fucked and it would have been a huge mess. However, like an idiot, I believed their promises without anything in writing backing it up, and I assumed I would be rewarded for working so hard on the transition and not fucking them like others who just jumped ship for other companies.

Finally, the transition was complete, and they moved everything to Alabama. I was reassigned to another department -- a bloated one where they had a budget way too big and pretty much just paid people to sit around and do very little. So this would have been a great place to be if I was 60 and killing time for retirement, but awful when I'm 26 and looking for both challenges and career advancement.

But it got worse. What about my raise?

With my services no longer needed, they no longer needed to waste any of the raise pool on me. The guy from HR stopped by and said, "Hey, Todd, come to my office", and when I got there, he said, "About your raise.... it's been denied."

He then gave me a bunch of BS reasons why it was denied. I wanted to tell him he was a lying POS and walk out, but I just expressed my displeasure politely and went back to my cubicle. I then immediately sprung into action looking for another job.

The one good thing about this new department was that nobody gave a shit where I was or what I did, provided I got my super-easy and quick assignments done. So I got my week's worth of work done in like 2 hours on Monday, and then I had the rest of the week to fuck around on the internet, take 3 hour lunches, and most importantly, go to job interviews. Eventually I got hired elsewhere for $20k more than I was making at this job, so I snap-accepted.

The company had a "paid shutdown" over Christmas break, and this was now December. So I actually took the new job while keeping the old one, and just took vacation days until the Christmas shutdown, and "quit" on January 2, 1999.

So that was that, and I was at the new job until August 2003, when I quit working for good to play poker.

But I learned from this first company a few things:

1) Fuck company loyalty. You are a piece of equipment that they will throw away as soon as you're not useful. (I am referring to large companies here. Small companies can sometimes be worth your loyalty, depending upon the management.)

2) Always get promises in writing.

3) If you have a company by the balls, like I did for those months during the Alabama transition, hold their feet to the fire and make demands on your own behalf. In my case, I should have told them I wanted a retroactive salary adjustment dating back to January 1 or I'm quitting immediately.


Anyway, Hockey Guy, your story reminded me of the above. I felt like a chump when that HR asshole told me it had been denied after jerking me around for 4 months so I would get the transitional work done.

[Hockey Guy]

By telling them that I'm not doing this project, I'm not qualified to do it anyway, I'm mailing it in in the hopes of getting let go. I've decided I'm leaving anyway so I really have nothing to lose nor do I fucking care.

What you did, staying through your paid shutdown over christmas holidays only to quit in Jan. is kinda the same as what I'm considering doing of just getting paid the morning of Oct 15th & then not showing up for the plane later that morning because I know they've fucked guys over before about the last paycheck when it worked in their favor. I also feel it would make up for getting stiffed on this year's bonus which, the more I think about it the madder I get because I now realize my trust in them was severely misplaced.

After watching them lie to my co-worker's face about stuff I lost all respect & trust for them. I mean, why would you straight up lie about forwarding a request to upper management? Then when you just go directly to your boss's boss they straight up lie that they will pass the info on to someone to make a decision. So they say no, & you move on. He only gave them the ultimatum after he found out they were lying right to his face & time was running out.

[Hockey Guy]

I have to add one more thing to this story because I've alluded to it but haven't come out & said it.

My father has terminal cancer. I told them this & that I'd try to stay until the new plant was up & running to help them out but I would eventually be leaving to spend time with him his last few months. I told them my mother died while I was in camp, I made it to her bedside before her passing but never got to really say goodbye, & I couldn't under any circumstances let that happen again with my father.

I now believe they are taking advantage of this info & are trying to out wait me until I quit & they don't have to pay a severance. Or maybe they're just stupid, I don't know which.

[simpdog]

I wish you the best hockey guy.

Is it possible for you to take personal paid time off? Or perhaps claim short term disability for depression or something non physical?

I would definitely eat up your vacation days and personal time. Also maybe try to negotiate with them? At worst have them lay you off so you can collect employment insurance for a year?

[jsearles22]

I wish you the best hockey guy.

Is it possible for you to take personal paid time off? Or perhaps claim short term disability for depression or something non physical?

I would definitely eat up your vacation days and personal time. Also maybe try to negotiate with them? At worst have them lay you off so you can collect employment insurance for a year?

Do they have FMLA in Canada. In the USA you can take Family Medical Leave (I say can, its actually required by law they grant it) up to 12 weeks in a 12 month period. They have to hold your job, they cant change your position, they essentially cant do anything to fuck with you while you take it. Im sure they could "downsize" your position while you are out on leave, but that would kick in the severance requirement. I would look into that

EDIT:
http://digitalcommons.ilr.cornell.ed...ontext=student

This should help

[Baron Von Strucker]

Stay as long as you can to suck every penny out of this company and into your pocket you can.

This
Sucks if you hate the job and camp life, sick familey member.
You have the upper hand I'd you let them fire you or lay you off. If you quit you do not qualify for UIC. Or legal possibility.

[JUSTIFIEDhomicide]

No point in trying to play games IMO. Not showing up for work like Druff suggested or doing a bad job is a terrible idea. Because when you go to your next job they want to know you're ready to fight in the trenches when shit hits the fan. Not be the bail out guy who tried to get fired. I would just be honest with them and let them know of your exact intentions of leaving. No need to try and fuck around on them even if they're doing that to you.

Set a date with them that you're leaving. Wait for them to call or bluff, but just hold true to your date.

[shortbuspoker]

Basically they were moving my department to Alabama (lol), and they gave everyone 2 choices:

1) Come to Alabama (lol again)

Fuck you Druff. Only n-words and Pac-10 fans hate Alabama. Plus we have I do believe the most obese population in America so you would fit in fine.

[Dan Druff]

No point in trying to play games IMO. Not showing up for work like Druff suggested or doing a bad job is a terrible idea. Because when you go to your next job they want to know you're ready to fight in the trenches when shit hits the fan. Not be the bail out guy who tried to get fired. I would just be honest with them and let them know of your exact intentions of leaving. No need to try and fuck around on them even if they're doing that to you.

Set a date with them that you're leaving. Wait for them to call or bluff, but just hold true to your date.

I don't know about Canadian law, but US law prevents companies from talking shit about you when potential new employers call them. Basically they're just supposed to confirm basic, non-controversial facts, such as that you worked there, what type of work you did, etc. You can sue them if they say things like, "Hockey Guy intentionally screwed us at the end because he was mad about changes in the job".

I don't know enough about Canadian law or Hockey Guy's specific situation to give accurate advice here, but the point is that he should figure out the best angle to extract the most $ out of them, and then do it.

[jsearles22]

No point in trying to play games IMO. Not showing up for work like Druff suggested or doing a bad job is a terrible idea. Because when you go to your next job they want to know you're ready to fight in the trenches when shit hits the fan. Not be the bail out guy who tried to get fired. I would just be honest with them and let them know of your exact intentions of leaving. No need to try and fuck around on them even if they're doing that to you.

Set a date with them that you're leaving. Wait for them to call or bluff, but just hold true to your date.

I don't know about Canadian law, but US law prevents companies from talking shit about you when potential new employers call them. Basically they're just supposed to confirm basic, non-controversial facts, such as that you worked there, what type of work you did, etc. You can sue them if they say things like, "Hockey Guy intentionally screwed us at the end because he was mad about changes in the job".

I don't know enough about Canadian law or Hockey Guy's specific situation to give accurate advice here, but the point is that he should figure out the best angle to extract the most $ out of them, and then do it.

Although this is the law, its like literally never enforced. Its almost unenforceable. First off you would have to be able to prove they said it. Secondly you would have to be able to prove damages (meaning it costs you another job). Those two things combined are nearly impossible. I'd be shocked if someone could provide a handful of cases where someone successfully argued that their last job harmed them from getting a future job because they released true and accurate information.

[Hockey Guy]

Well, I decided that honesty was the best policy & went to see the boss to essentially tell him that I needed to be home & this would be my last shift.

Surprisingly, he arranged for me to take the next week off, with pay, to go home get my mind on more important things & re-evaluate the situation & get all the facts so that I could come back in a better state with the right information to make a better, not emotional, decision & he'd look into a leave of absense if needed after my 3 weeks off. He also talked me out of straight quitting because there is a serious chance for a package that hasn't been announced & he really seemed genuine in his concern. He has no real reason to lie to me at this point since I made it very clear that I might have to walk away, leaving potential money on the table, no matter what.

I pride myself on being able to handle stress & stressful situations but I definitely had a mini breakdown in the last day & apologize for any over emotional faggotry on my part.

That being said, I'd like to thank everyone for listening & the well wishes I've received. I probably won't be updating this thread again unless I somehow get fucked over.

[GrenadaRoger]

HG, i believe you are in Canada, and thus there are laws unique to you situation...

in the US, in general, there is no obligation to pay severance and most employment is "at will" meaning you can be dismissed or you can quit at any time without cause...exceptions are if you are a bargaining unit (union) employee or have an employment contract, and those terms would govern ending the relationship -- in certain states employers of over a certain size must give advance notice of a specified time is mass layoffs/terminations are planned; if you quit or are terminated because your actions are deliberately harmful to you employer, you will not qualify for un-employment benefits; however, if your employer eliminates your job and offers you another one, you are not required to take it if it is not in the same area, time and level of pay and siimilar in nature to you prior job -- you can refuse the other job and you would still qualify for benefits. Generally, if you are employed in a job for even a few days you qualify for benefits, although the amount of benefits usually depends on your earnings during the previous 8 quarters.

in your situation, your company needs you to stay until they need you no longer, then you are gone, they have no loyalty to you but they are asking for you to be loyal to them and sacrifice your opportunity to find work elsewhere....so no use killing yourself, but excessive absence or deliberate actions to be counter productive can cost you any unemployment benefits, so don't do anything like that---just gear down and use up all your sick time/compensated overtime---so here is how you play it: you tell them you want a contract calling for a bonus if you stay until a certain time, and if they choose to let you go sooner, the contract vests...otherwise, you will start looking for work elsewhere immediately ....companies want loyalty--so make them pay for it: in doing this you aren't doing anything one of the executives wouldn't do for themselves or to a customer that wants special services/terms: charge them for it....how much of a bonus? well, how long to they want you to stay? without knowing any better, i say what is fair is an extra week for each month until the planned termination date plus, as an inducement to sign, week for each prior year of service

if they refuse bonus, then you get even...at your job at Winnie the Pooh Land, you swap your Tigger costume for with your friend's Pooh, but then put the costume pants on backwards...claim it was a honest mistake

[Hockey Guy]

Just to update this, the company did right by me & gave me a package that was better than what even I thought it could/would be.

I'll be taking a month or so to spend some much needed time with family, I haven't had a christmas at home since 1999, then it'll be back to the grind but closer to home & not in a camp situation.

I'd like to thank everyone for the well wishes in this thread as well as the many IM's & PM's of support I've received.