WPT at the Bike (Legends of Poker) introduces controversial "Quantum reload", Kessler objects

[Dan Druff]

The WPT at the Bike (Legends of Poker) has introduced something new to its $4 Million guarantee Main Event. You are now able to directly buy in to Day 2 with something near average chips (details haven't been worked out yet), in exchange for paying nearly 3 times the buyin.

Day 1 players can buy in for $3500 and will receive 30k in tournament chips.

Players can also buy in directly to Day 2 for $10,000, and will receive either equivalent to average stack, 60 BB, or 100k chips (this hasn't been decided yet).'

You are also allowed to buy directly into Day 2 if you busted Day 1.

Allen Kessler objects to this, mainly because it allows deep-pocketed (or better) players the opportunity to skip the early stages, and join later in the tournament with a good chip stack -- basically violating the whole concept of tournament poker that everyone starts on equal footing and needs to earn their way to the top.

While addons have existed for a long time, they are usually stopped fairly early in the tournament, and simply buying the max addon will not take you anywhere near average stack.

I agree that this is bad for the game, as it will allow deep-pocketed pros to take a shot at Day 1, play super aggro, and then buy an average stack on Day 2 if they bust.

I also agree with Kessler's general opposition to unlimited rebuy tournaments, because again that favors the deep-pocketed players and the pros. However, at least those players can't directly buy a better stack than those who paid the "normal" buyin for the tournament.

This is awful.

Here is Kessler's statement:

I have attended the legends of poker main event nearly every year since it's inception at the bicycle casino. The bike has always been one of my favorite poker venues. They offer a variety of mixed events and cash games and I know all the staff there by name.

This year, I have made the decision to boycott their series. It was not an easy decision, but I cannot support their concept called "quantum reload". The quantum reload format has not really been advertised extensively but has been added to the $4m guarantee wpt legends of poker main event. Most players I've asked did not even know this was happening.

Quantum reload is the latest multiple entry format incarnation. First there was reentry. If you busted you could enter another flight but not until the next day. This format seemed fine since many players were traveling a long way to the venue, and should have another opportunity to enter if they busted.

The next wave was unlimited reentry one start day or multiple start day events. Bellagio was big on this format, and allowed players to buy in $10k events as many times as needed on a single start day, to try to make day two. This is also the format for huge guarantee events like the $10 million guarantee in Florida. The problem with this format is that deep pocketed skilled players are free to enter as many times as needed on any flight, creating a much tougher overall field and discouraging recreational players from even entering. After all what recreational player wants to play in a field with 6 Brian Rasts or 5 Daniel negreanus.

The latest wave of this format is called quantum reload. Players at the bike are able to enter once per $3500 flight with 30000 starting chips. Players who don't make it through to day two, or who simply don't want to play day one at all, have an option to buy in directly to day 2 for $10,000 and join the advancing player field from day 1. The bike has changed what this $10k will buy several times. I've seen 100k in chips, "avg stack" and 60bb stack all mentioned.

It really doesn't matter what the $10k buys though, as this format creates a gap between the haves and have nots. Players who struggle to make it through day one but ultimately advance, will have to face a whole new wave of skilled players who are eager for the extra chance to buy an average day two advancing stack.

This format takes reentry one step further. At least with reentry a player had to somehow earn their way into day two. Now with this new format, the deep pocketed skilled pros have an even bigger edge. Not only can they play all 3 flights to try to advance to day 2, but even if they are unsuccessful in advancing, they can just buy an average stack for another $10k.

Imagine you are a local l.a. grinder. You win a satellite, you're playing day 1c and knock out a tough opponent, Brian Rast. You have slightly less than an average stack but are pleased to have made day 2, and to have eliminated a tough opponent. You come back for day 2, find your seat, and there's Brian directly to your left, and with more chips than you, even though you already eliminated him.

This scenario will happen multiple times. Players that made it through to day 2 will have to knock out the higher echelon players an extra time, and this time the skilled players have bought an even bigger stack.

It's easy to see how this format will dissuade recreational players from even entering, or even trying a satellite.

This format has proven successful in the past for $100 buyins where players can buyin late for $5k. This however is a world poker tour sponsored event. World poker tour titles are not up for sale to the highest bidder. If a player cannot earn their way to day 2 via several starting flights, that has to be the end of the road.

It shocks me that world poker tour brass such as Yourself and Warren Lush of party poker, as well as executive tour director Matt Savage would allow such a format to exist on a WPT sponsored event. I realize the quantum reload is a bicycle casino concept, but the World Poker Tour has the obligation to step in and provide a fair tournament for all players.

Allowing busted players to buy back in on day 2 for a premium, and get extra chips, is bad for poker and its long term growth. I will boycott any venue with this tournament format and urge others to study all the rules of any tournament prior to making a decision on whether or not to attend.

Hopefully the WSOP will not consider something stupid like this. I'm afraid they might, because it generates more revenue for the casino and pumps up the prize pools.

[Dan Druff]

The funny thing is I actually thought of something like this awhile ago, except with an additional twist.

The twist would be that, in addition to being able to buy in late with a better stack for extra money, players with good stacks would also be able to SELL their chips and leave the tournament at some point before the money. This could actually be done because tournament chips have a direct correlation to cash value until the money bubble bursts.

Ignoring rake, if a tournament has a $1000 buyin and each entrant gets 5,000 starting chips, then each chip is worth 20 cents. This only changes once people start getting paid for having zero chips (i.e. the money is reached). Now, chips have more THEORETICAL value than that (for example, having 5000 chips one spot before the money is worth a lot more than $1,000). However, if restricted to certain times in the tournament (maybe between 25% and 75% of the field left), then this could actually be done successfully, and the lower-risk-taking players could take these smaller cashes and actually make a living out of it, rather than having to perform well at the final table to hit big scores.

But I never proposed any of this because I decided it would be bad for the game.

[BeerAndPoker]

This tournament has it's pros and cons. I think it's important people see what positives can come out of it before assuming their isn't any. Maybe tomorrow I will do a write up and post it here but one thing I will say is if someone knows of the tournament since the rules are clear and they gripe about it but still play then I have no sympathy for them.

[ftpjesus]

The funny thing is I actually thought of something like this awhile ago, except with an additional twist.

The twist would be that, in addition to being able to buy in late with a better stack for extra money, players with good stacks would also be able to SELL their chips and leave the tournament at some point before the money. This could actually be done because tournament chips have a direct correlation to cash value until the money bubble bursts.

Ignoring rake, if a tournament has a $1000 buyin and each entrant gets 5,000 starting chips, then each chip is worth 20 cents. This only changes once people start getting paid for having zero chips (i.e. the money is reached). Now, chips have more THEORETICAL value than that (for example, having 5000 chips one spot before the money is worth a lot more than $1,000). However, if restricted to certain times in the tournament (maybe between 25% and 75% of the field left), then this could actually be done successfully, and the lower-risk-taking players could take these smaller cashes and actually make a living out of it, rather than having to perform well at the final table to hit big scores.

But I never proposed any of this because I decided it would be bad for the game.

Didnt PS or FTP had something similiar prior to BF in some of their tournaments at least on the sellback side if I recall you could in fact cash out before the tourney ended depending on your stack up until the bubble burst in some of them.

[thesparten]

The funny thing is I actually thought of something like this awhile ago, except with an additional twist.

The twist would be that, in addition to being able to buy in late with a better stack for extra money, players with good stacks would also be able to SELL their chips and leave the tournament at some point before the money. This could actually be done because tournament chips have a direct correlation to cash value until the money bubble bursts.

Ignoring rake, if a tournament has a $1000 buyin and each entrant gets 5,000 starting chips, then each chip is worth 20 cents. This only changes once people start getting paid for having zero chips (i.e. the money is reached). Now, chips have more THEORETICAL value than that (for example, having 5000 chips one spot before the money is worth a lot more than $1,000). However, if restricted to certain times in the tournament (maybe between 25% and 75% of the field left), then this could actually be done successfully, and the lower-risk-taking players could take these smaller cashes and actually make a living out of it, rather than having to perform well at the final table to hit big scores.

But I never proposed any of this because I decided it would be bad for the game.

Didnt PS or FTP had something similiar prior to BF in some of their tournaments at least on the sellback side if I recall you could in fact cash out before the tourney ended depending on your stack up until the bubble burst in some of them.

[thesparten]

Didnt PS or FTP had something similiar prior to BF in some of their tournaments at least on the sellback side if I recall you could in fact cash out before the tourney ended depending on your stack up until the bubble burst in some of them.

I HATTTTTE LATE REG!!!!!!!!!REBUYS ARE COOL BUT ONCE THE TOURNIY STARTS...FUCK U

[ftpjesus]

I HATTTTTE LATE REG!!!!!!!!!REBUYS ARE COOL BUT ONCE THE TOURNIY STARTS...FUCK U

Problem is if you allow rebuys then you essentially have to allow the late registration.. How is it any different for somebody to go el busto and have to reload to start over with the same starting chip stack and some rube who oversleeps or deliberately waits to start with a sub avg stack.. Reality is no real difference its a buy in to the prize pool.