Last i saw was 128 or somethingOriginally Posted by lewfather
Last i saw was 128 or something
My table was juicy. Im sure some werent. But there are more donks in these then u would think. I think druff said he had a guy limping 6-8 off in the cutoff. Id take my table draw tonight and be happy if it was a 1500 table and those fields are weak.
Your right though. Its not exactly same as limit cash but it is
Very similar.
I would think most weren't juicy at all but of course at the start each table could have one spot where everyone recognizes and hopes to get there money.My table was juicy. Im sure some werent. But there are more donks in these then u would think. I think druff said he had a guy limping 6-8 off in the cutoff. Id take my table draw tonight and be happy if it was a 1500 table and those fields are weak.
Your right though. Its not exactly same as limit cash but it is
Very similar.
It just seems like even for most good players if they played this tournament 100 times most wouldn't love their ROI whether it's in the negative or slightly ahead even if they go deep once or twice in that time with a few cashes which says a lot to me.
Based on this years pay structure First place is $303,909. If the field stayed the the same every year and someone was lucky enough to win it twice then had like 10 min cashes based of $16,273 with it that means they cash for $770,548 over playing it 100 times and are down like $229.5k. If this person cashes a few more times that would chop some of the deficit off but again realistically how if at all +ev is this event?
Oh for sure its one of the toughest fields no doubt. Im not sure how big or small of sn edge someone would have but noone is a huge favorite to crush this field
In defense of China, yes, there were a number of weak players in the field -- a far greater percentage than you'd expect.
The 10k buyin is part of the reason for this. There are a lot of very good LHE players who just don't have the bankroll or don't want the 10k variance. This is especially true nowadays, where the highest LHE game in Vegas is typically 40-80 (except during WSOP time), and the highest at Commerce is 100-200.
You get a fair number of players in the field who are either NL players who aren't good at limit, or recreational players with deep pockets who like playing "championship" events. For example, there was a doctor at my table who was absolutely awful. He open limped one hand in late position with 68o (and oddly enough, I had 68o in the SB and completed, then we both flopped trip 8s). Another guy at the table called 3 cold with 56 (and that's the hand that busted me, btw).
At the same time, you will get some excellent limit players at your table, as well. Having position on them is huge. Unfortunately for me, I got David Chiu to my direct left. He's the #1 all-time cashing LHE player at the WSOP, and has a huge stack yet again.
This is actually a good value event for any good LHE player.
It also has huge variance, which is why many avoid it.
Last year the variance was mostly on my side. This year it wasn't, as I was one of the earlier exits. Still, preceding me out the door were highly respected LHE players Jameson Painter, Brock Parker, Barry Greenstein, and "tiger76" from Pokerstars.
I can't comment on China's table, but I really liked mine, aside from Chiu being to my left. I just ran incredibly awful, aside from one brief comeback.
I actually did something afterwards that I almost never do:
I registered for another event "late" on the same day I finished an earlier event.
I did this because:
1) I would be starting with a full stack of chips (15k)
2) I would be playing only with players starting along with me (i.e. I'm not joining existing big stacks)
3) I lasted fewer than 6 hours in the LHE event
So I entered the "Monster Stack" event, which was a freakin' zoo. I was in the 10:40pm flight (lol), and we started on level 6 (100-200-25), so it wasn't as "monsterish" as the name would imply, since we only came in with 15k chips.
They had to wait for all of the 12pm people to bag up their chips before starting our event. It ended up not starting until well after 11:00, and the Rio looked like a refugee camp while everyone was waiting, with people lying on the floors of the Pavilon room.
You also got no information as to what was going on, aside from that we were waiting for them to bag up the earlier flight's chips and start our flight. I almost gave up and unregistered.
I was very card dead in the monster stack. The few times I wasn't, I ran into bad flops and apparently my opponents really had it.
On the final level, (we only played four levels) I had about 9k and we were playing 300/600/75. The final 3 hands were my button, cutoff, and cutoff-1. I really wanted to ship it in and either chip up or not come back.
Button hand seemed to give me that wish, as I picked up 77. However, I was faced with a middle-position raise and a re-raise after him, so I decided not to chance the 77, as I felt it was very possibly in bad shape, and at best probably racing. I folded, and the SB came over the top, and the other two folded. The SB told me he had a big pair. I know the guy and I'm 100% sure he was telling me the truth.
The next hand in the cutoff, I had K4o, and it folded to me. I shoved, and everyone folded.
The final hand, the guy to my right made it 3k (he had about 16-17k total), and I looked down to see 66. This guy had been talking to me a lot throughout the tournament, and was definitely a tight nit. I knew he wasn't just raising with air, and I knew he was going to call me if I shoved my 10100 stack over his 3k raise. Again, I felt I was either crushed or racing at best, so I let the 66 go. With many other players I would have shoved the 66, but this guy I felt had a fair chance to have 77+, and almost no chance of folding (because he didn't have trash). The big stack to my left then put him all in, and he called. They both showed AQ, and I would have won. The big stack said he would have laid down his AQ had I shoved first, so I would have doubled. I still think I made the right move, given the player who was raising. 10k is a short stack coming back tomorrow, but is not so desperate that I had to go in here.
Anyway, the monster stack got almost 8,000 players, and unlike the Millionaire Maker, you couldn't rebuy. So it actually got almost 8,000 unique players. Amazing. Caesars totally didn't plan for this, and the entire day was a logistical disaster.
It's amazing how every year they are caught flat footed by a large field they "don't expect", when common sense would dictate that certain events might very well be huge. Last year, it was the Millionaire Maker event that surprised them.
2 regs from my online games top 5 in chips , golbuff and mannoni
TAKE IT DOWN
"Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky
"America is not so much a nightmare as a non-dream. The American non-dream is precisely a move to wipe the dream out of existence. The dream is a spontaneous happening and therefore dangerous to a control system set up by the non-dreamers." -- William S. Burroughs
David Chiu is such a boss. How is he on the top of the board every year in these things?
7 out of the 12 or so guys I played with at one point or another last night are still in too, mannoni , chen , como , tulchinskly, shey , tazellar, nassif,
Online, mannoni is one of the toughest players I have ever played against too, prob the most aggressive winning player i have a large sample with
Chiu is a fantastic tournament limit player as all his bracelets are in limit events and I heard he's a pretty good cash player too. I played with him a bit on ftp but can't remember. He has been prob playing these for 20 years so he prob has as optimal strategy as you can get
Playing with him was interesting.Chiu is a fantastic tournament limit player as all his bracelets are in limit events and I heard he's a pretty good cash player too. I played with him a bit on ftp but can't remember. He has been prob playing these for 20 years so he prob has as optimal strategy as you can get
He is not crazy aggro like you might expect.
He is just one of those smart players who understands you don't have to win every pot, and seems to save his chips for when they're either in good or have a fair chance to spike the winning card. Just seems to have an excellent sense for when he's ahead or behind.
Nice guy, too.
They just made the money in the 10k limit.
Commerce regular Yakov Hirsch was the bubble boy.
Not a good showing this year for last year's $5k Limit Holdem (basically the same event) final table.
8 of the 9 of us played this year. The only one to sit it out was Greg Mueller.
Of those 8, only Gabriel Nassif cashed. He has about an average stack.
The other 7 -- me, Michael Moore, Brian Aleka, Dom Denotaristefani, Ben Yu, Justin Bonomo, and Ronnie Bardah all left empty handed. Bardah was chip leader at one point with an early 100k, but then never got anything going, and busted shortly before the money.
I'm sorry but I don't see the value in this tournament and never will. Go crunch some numbers and then come back to me showing where real value is because I don't see it and highly doubt either china or Druff can show me in compared to other events.
yea, this tournament is value town braw. 122 entered it was just a bad break that david chiu was on direct left and were sandwiched between zeejustin and bill chen. At the beginning of the tournament there was a doctor, so that totally off sets everything. Which is why they are gonna have to charge mark up, of course.
I never claimed there was huge value
It's easy to show real value.
If 20% of the entrants are mediocre or bad, they are basically dead money.
You have almost no fish ever cashing in this event. That's the one thing with limit holdem tournaments. It's very difficult to cash if you suck at it, whereas in NL you can still cash if you hit a few huge all-in cooler hands over your opponents.
At the same time, the difference in skill between good NL players is bigger than the skill difference of good limit players. So the end of LHE tournaments becomes more of a card-catching contest, but getting to that point is more skill-based.
Anyway, from personal experience, and from speaking to others, there are definitely a fair number of entrants in the $10k LHE tournament who are dead money. That's where the value comes in.
There is actually MORE value in this tournament than there was in previous years. This is because more good players were willing to plunk down $5-10k to enter when the money flowed freely online. Now that making $10k takes a long time at most limit hold 'em games that spread, a lot of the good cash regulars don't want to bother with it.
So you end up with 125-180 people, some of whom are LHE experts, some of whom are NL players taking a shot, and some of whom are well-bankrolled amateurs with no shot.
dont forget the 2 limpdonk fish on my right
What mother fuckers in the game don't realize is that when you have *REAL* value, you have to sell at least 90% of your action.
I think what you guys are missing is that the presence of dead money players isn't negated by the presence of guys like David Chiu or Justin Bonomo.
All you need for "value" in a tournament like this is enough dead money in the field to where the average equity for everyone with a chance goes substantially up.
Does that mean you will win every year? Obv not. Still takes a lot of card catching.
Here is my record in the $5k/$10k tournament since I started playing it in 2007:
2007: DID NOT CASH, NOT CLOSE
2008: 19th place (27 places paid), cashed
2009: DID NOT CASH, NOT CLOSE
2010: (did not play, was sick)
2011: DID NOT CASH, NOT CLOSE
2012: 19th place, bubble boy - could have cashed if I just folded to $, but played 4 straight hands & lost all
2013: 5th place
2014: DID NOT CASH, NOT CLOSE
So basically I played 7 times, cashed twice, and came as close to cashing as one could get one other time. And this is with only about 10% of the field cashing.
Unless you believe that was all dumb luck, there really is value in this event.
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