If money is taken from the promo pool and not paid out in accordance with the posted rules, has it not been stolen ? After all it is now missing from the pool, unlawfully taken.Originally Posted by Dan Druff
Is stolen too emotive of a word? Misappropriated ?
I agree that there are a lot of questions that still need to be answered. I thought that your questions to Todd were good ones, and for some reason he did not answer them.If money is taken from the promo pool and not paid out in accordance with the posted rules, has it not been stolen ? After all it is now missing from the pool, unlawfully taken.
Is stolen too emotive of a word? Misappropriated ?
I wouldn't say "stolen" is appropriate at this point because all evidence seems to point to him losing almost all of the promo money he took to play. It does seem likely that he lost it intentionally.
It also looks likely that Palms players received FAR more promo money than was raked, so overall the players didn't lose anything.
However, there are some important questions that remain:
- Was it legal for him to take promo funds and play poker with them, even if he was mostly intentionally losing the money back to players?
- Even if legal, was it within Palms rules to do this?
- Was the intentional bad play directed evenly at all players in the game, or did it occur more often when Todd's opponents were friends or fellow employees?
- Why specifically was Todd terminated?
- Were there other employees besides Todd in the games, playing with the promo money?
- What happened to the dealer tips that came from the promo money?
Dan,
What promo money do you think I was playing with? We were $22,000+ in the hole. 100% of the money I lost was house money. I told you that Game Protection was just a line item to account for the money (because of the stringent accounting oversight that the casinos have.) I even went the added step and made sure that on the rare occasions that I won, we dropped the money to the players, so there would be no inclination of impropriety. You seem to be trying to find controversy with dealer tokes or dumping to friends. That was never even mentioned before, you added that just to keep the conversation going. We consistently only had 2 games going so I don't know why you think that my friends were in there reaping the benefits. I also told you that it was very rare that we even had a 1-3 NL game going. Mostly it was just 2-6 spread limit.
I know you have played lots of poker, so while playing , did the shill beat you or just play soft and keep the game going?
Why do you think I should share the private details of my meetings with my superiors with the world?
Please just accept that I didn't steal anything. I didn't do anything that I didn't think was 100% benefit to the room. Unfortunately, I was unable to get the business levels to the heights that my supervisors were looking for so they decided to move in a different direction.
I have done nothing wrong and you seem to be taking joy in keeping this alive. Todd
I have said that I believe you didn't steal anything.
I am not trying to imply that you did. Since you gave your side of the story, I believe, at the very least, that you didn't do any of this to enrich yourself.
I am also not accusing you of chip-dumping to friends. I am simply asking some questions that came to mind. You have to admit that there are potential problems when a poker manager sits down with player-funded promo money, and intentionally plays poorly. I'm not saying you were trying to favor your friends, but the question as to who typically won the money is worth asking.
In all likelihood, you were trying in earnest to get the room active with an aggressive promotion, and things got out of control.
I don't believe this was a conspiracy to steal. However, managers/employees playing with promo money obviously isn't a good idea, and I think it also probably wasn't allowed.
Were your losses reimbursed from the promo pool or from Cantor/Palms Cage ? Do you know that it is a gaming violation to shill with promo funds ?
Do you believe that you only lost house money because the promo fund is in the negative ?We were $22,000+ in the hole. 100% of the money I lost was house money.
The strenuous accounting usually requires a who, what, why and where on the payout log sheet.I told you that Game Protection was just a line item to account for the money (because of the stringent accounting oversight that the casinos have.)
Why did you have the ambiguous 'game protection' label ?
Dropped the money into the promo drop box ?I even went the added step and made sure that on the rare occasions that I won, we dropped the money to the players, so there would be no inclination of impropriety.
You said all money was returned to the players. However some would have ended up in the house rake box and also some may have been tipped out to dealers or cashiers. That would mean that not all money was returned to the players.You seem to be trying to find controversy with dealer tokes or dumping to friends. That was never even mentioned before, you added that just to keep the conversation going.
That you may believe something to be 100% to the benefit of the room, does not make it right.Please just accept that I didn't steal anything. I didn't do anything that I didn't think was 100% benefit to the room.
Personally, I do not want to believe that yet another member of the poker community has done something wrong and tarnished the game that we all love to play, work or be around, however I find that your answers leave me with more questions.
Just in case you have missed the previous two times I have posted the follwoing questions, I will post them again. They are fairly specific and leave little room for ambiguity when answered, so hopefully you answering them could help clear this whole situation up.
Who and why was the line item ‘Game Protection’ chosen?
Why not write down exactly what promo was being paid out. Typically auditing likes to know, who, what, why and where? Why did you break from these accepted conventions?
Have you ever known or worked in a room previously that used an ambiguous line item ?
Was your paperwork audited daily?
Who was supervising the games when you were playing in them ?
You say you never cashed out a single penny, you sat in the game until you was felted every time?
Who is the we you refer to “You said that when we lost we wrote it off, but when we won we pocketed the money”
If during the course of a session, you used promo funds to reimburse your losses, any tips that you gave to a dealer were not returned to the players. Or did you never tip the dealers?
Was you employed for longer than 90 days?
Last edited by HarleyFarley; 02-09-2014 at 02:03 PM.
I will say the first few posts from Todd (vegasbeek) were very good ones and provided a lot of details regarding this situation but now it seems like he's avoiding a lot of the questions.
Some of the follow up questions he either answered or sort of did in his first few posts so I get him not caring to answer those particular ones again but their are a lot of other ones he's not responded to which the people would like to here.
HarleyFarley - You have some good questions but your tilting me with the last one so please correct it to "Were you employed etc..." if you decide to quote it again. Thanks!
I tried to give Dan some of the information that he needed to make an educated decision about the room.
Why would I respond to some random person who joined a couple days ago named HarleyFarley? I know nothing about this person.
Who is he? I gave all my information. Why is his profile blank? Why does he only have 4 posts, just in this thread?
I haven't avoided any question that the owner asked me. Of course, I am not explaining random things to some random person. If you want to continue to try and find improprieties, then there is nothing I can do about it.
I appreciate Dan letting me answer his questions, post my responses, and doing my best to repair damage to my name.
Thanks again for your time, Todd
Why no comment on this druff?????
Maybe because he has legitimate questions? Ever think of that?
If you practice avoidance I am not going to say you are guilty of anything, you have the right to plead the 5th but obv dodging questions looks VERY shady
My profile being blank or the fact you do not know who I am, should have no baring on your willingness to answer my questions.
My questions are not random, they are quite the oppsite, which is why I suspect you will continue to avoid answering them.
Answering the questions, will help remove the confusion that surrounds the allegations and your attempts to clear them up.
As you will see from both this thread and the 2+2 thread, some people do not know whether you used promo funds to shill with or house funds. For some reason you seem unwilling to clear this matter up. This site has a relatively small reader base, however the story has caught new wind on 2+2 and I do not see things dying down until answers have been provided.
Personally I am not trying to uncover improprieties, I would just like to see the situation resolved. Hopefully that resolution will be that the original allegatiosn were unfounded and poker doesnt have another scum bag amongst its ranks.
You say that you are respected by your peers and players, how about showing some respect to the community at large and clarifying some of the issues that are being queried.
VegasBEEK is starting to SQUIRM it seems. From my experience in these threads in this industry when a poster goes SILENT and saying they answered everything and avoid MAJOR KEY questions it usually never ends good.
Now 2+2 has banned me because of this thread.
http://pokerfraudalert.com/forum/sho...ce-knowing-you
Ridiculous.
As the poker room maanger, anything that was intended to rbing the room more business, would ultimately enrich the manager. Casinos tend to keep in place management that make them money and release those that don't.
Thats what tends to happen when you ignore and or circumvent accpeted industry practices and standards.In all likelihood, you were trying in earnest to get the room active with an aggressive promotion, and things got out of control.
Maybe it is time to again change the thread title.I don't believe this was a conspiracy to steal. However, managers/employees playing with promo money obviously isn't a good idea, and I think it also probably wasn't allowed.
Palms: Gross mismanagement of promo funds, in violation of Nevada gaming regs, chaos ensues. Purported manager wants to clear name but refuses to answer pertinent questions.
If you were worried about your job, and going to spew a bunch of money to players(whether it be house or player money), wouldn't you dump it to people likely to give you back some of it? I'm not saying he did this, but I would. If I didn't, it would go to certain players. A new local guy who I think I can convert into a reg, or loyalty to certain guys I like that help me keep my job. I don't understand this promotion fully, but it would seem like whom he spews it to would probably not be equitable, and I cant imagine this practice would be considered ethical. If I'm going to color outside the lines this far anyway in an attempt to keep my job, I'm going to give myself a bit of a financial cushion. Maybe he's more moral than I am, probably is, but it looks bad even if he had pure motives. If I'm throwing around house money, much of it is going to land in my pocket or those I like.
Still doesn't make him guilty without proof, but it just seems like a really sloppy business plan at best.
It seems like it could start as a genuine promotion attempting to give players a good deal and make it a fun environment to play. At first, you can't be enriching yourself because that wouldn't do shit for the room. I have to think at some point though, if I'm running things, I see it isn't working at all like I had hoped, and I'm bleeding money out without a return. At that point, I'm worried about my job once the company sees the red and start thinking of dumping to the right people rather than just random generosity.
Last edited by BCR; 02-12-2014 at 04:18 PM.
Look even if this guy had done what Druff originally said he did, he would be miles ahead of Donna Harris as Poker Room Manager.
Todd B.
You are wrong and you are so screwed.
You already incriminated yourself by admitting to taking promo money and playing with it. Then another anonymous dealer said you tipped them with the promo money when you would win a pot. Also you avoid that question when it was asked. That so called promo money you played with was part of a pot with a dollar rake and recycled $4 promo drop that was supposed to be returned to the players. You better lawyer up, ( if a lawyer will take your case after you self incriminated yourself). How do you plan on getting another room? You would be lucky if Gaming lets you keep your gaming license and not put you in jail.
Since the dealers knew about the promo and accepted tips from the stolen money you might have put them in jeopardy of being punished by Gaming.
The best outcome for you is that you are only fired. Seriously, when employers do a background check on your name, this thread is going to come up and no employer would want to hire someone with flawed logic, and someone who can not protect their company by incriminating yourself, the company, and its employees.
Good Luck
http://www.themresort.com/blog/2012/...run-a-success/
He probably should have added: Don't play with promo money.
asl?
wait...
a?
The Palms will be 'taking over' the poker room 4/1/14.
Current Cantor poker employees will have to apply for jobs in the room along with everybody else, just as Palms poker employees had to when the room became a Cantor room.
I wonder if Todd will be applying.
The poker room at the Palms is now officially donkdown.
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