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Thread: Advice needed from PFA for a friend

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Advice needed from PFA for a friend

    Before you read too much into this, yes, this really is a friend (and not me), as will become apparent from the story. That is, unless you believe I can't come up with $1500 to pay a lost bet.

    The situation:

    "Craig" works at a low-wage, crappy job, and unfortunately his co-workers are not the best quality people. Some of them have violent criminal backgrounds. It's a small company, so we're not talking about a low-wage job at a place like WalMart, where there is a big corporate structure over your head.

    Anyway, Craig's boss "Mark" is pretty much one of those thugs, though I'm not particularly sure of his exact history.

    Craig made various stupid prop bets with Mark, and got in the hole $1500. This added up quickly because he kept doing "double or nothing" and losing. Typically, Craig does not have a gambling problem, so this was surprising, but indeed that's what occurred. The bets themselves were legitimate. Craig was not tricked or scammed. He was just stupid and kept betting the losing side of things, and got way in the hole.

    Craig was paying off something laughable like $30/week. After about 7 weeks of this, Mark grew frustrated and said that he wanted a quicker payoff, and came up with an idea to do it.

    Mark has a friend, who also works at the same company, named "Joe". Joe is not a thug or a past criminal, but is rather more of perpetually broke guy who is horrible with money. Joe is in his mid-40s. Unlike Mark, on the surface he does not seem unpleasant or intimidating. For whatever reason, Joe is flat broke and is getting kicked out of his apartment on February 3rd.

    In mid-January, Mark approached Craig with an idea. "Let Joe move in with you for free for one month, and then he'll start paying half the rent on March 1. If you do that, I will forgive the entire rest of the $1300 debt."

    Craig, thinking that this was his way out of the debt without actually parting with money, agreed.

    Craig told me the whole story yesterday, just 3 days before Joe was set to move in. I explained the big problems here:

    1) Joe is very likely to NEVER pay a dime of rent, as he is clearly terrible with money, and I don't have faith that he will suddenly come up with his half of the rent on March 1 (or any time after).

    2) In Los Angeles, where Craig lives, it is VERY hard to evict roommates. Joe could stretch this out for 4 months, living rent-free (if he knows what tricks to pull), before Craig could get rid of him.

    Craig lives in a rent-controlled apartment, and he's been there for 20 years. He is getting a great buy on the apartment, so it would suck to move out and lose it. However, I will say that the apartment has gotten run down and even has some bug problems, so it wouldn't be the worst thing to leave, even if Craig has to live in a neighborhood that isn't as good. (His current apartment is in a great neighborhood.)

    This is a tough one to decide what is the best advice for Craig.

    If he welches on his agreement at this point, both Mark and Joe will be FURIOUS (since Joe is counting upon moving in there in 2 days), and because Craig has already agreed to this 3 weeks ago. He's also concerned what Mark will do to him physically if he welches.

    At the same time, one Joe moves in, it will become an amazing hassle to ever get a penny out of him, and will highly likely lead to a contentious and difficult eviction.

    After thinking a lot about this, I gave Craig the following advice:

    "Let Joe move in, but be willing to lose the apartment forever if this goes bad. Basically, keep to your end of the bargain, but if Joe doesn't pay on March 1, ask him to leave. If he won't, then don't pay the rent, and both of you will be evicted. At that point, at least you'll be able to start fresh with a new apartment without the deadbeat roommate, and you won't have welched on anything."

    Craig's credit (which will be harmed by an eviction) is not an issue here, because he already has horrible credit. It's just a matter of losing his long-term apartment.

    What advice would you give Craig here?

  2. #2
    One Percenter Pooh's Avatar
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    Very hard to imagine you'd be friends with somebody like this, unless that person is Ken.

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    Plutonium sonatine's Avatar
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    Paycheck loan, pawn shop, whatever it takes to pay down the debt, refuse to allow anyone to live in his apartment, and consider finding a new job because his boss is going to get rid of him asap.
    "Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

    "America is not so much a nightmare as a non-dream. The American non-dream is precisely a move to wipe the dream out of existence. The dream is a spontaneous happening and therefore dangerous to a control system set up by the non-dreamers." -- William S. Burroughs

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    Platinum BetCheckBet's Avatar
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    Pooh and Sonatine spot on. Seriously though how can he just not get a hold of 1500? Not very difficult.

    Just have Craig say that he inadvertently tipped off landlord who will not allow tenant to move in.

    Will Joe be on the lease?

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    Platinum BetCheckBet's Avatar
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    Your friend should also get a community support worker because he's clearly not capable of living independently (not joking here).

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    Rest In Peace son of lockman's Avatar
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    Simple answer.

    Don't offer any advice and keep out of it.

    Otherwise you may be the one who gets wacked as being the bad guy.

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    How close of a friend is this? Is he usually good at handling money outside of this gambling stunt?

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    King of the Carts BUBBLES's Avatar
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    Platinum nunbeater's Avatar
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    He's a big boy. He made fucking big boy bets and couldn't pay so now he has to honor the big boy agreement that he made.

    As far as the rest I agree with your advice but he could start looking for a new place now so if shit goes bad he will be much better prepared. Hell if he is paying all the rent now it is still a freeroll for him, sure the guy won't pay rent and he will get burnt there but really, this is a lesson about not gambling with the sharks and getting in over your head.

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    If Craig has horrible credit, how is he supposed to get a new place after being evicted? I'm working on repairing my credit, and had a hell of a time finding a place in Atlanta.

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    Platinum ShadyJ's Avatar
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    The guy who was betting against him knew his financial situation, so he knew if he won it was going to be small payments. Just keep making the payments wtf can he do about it?

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    Diamond BCR's Avatar
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    It sounds like the only thing of true value here is a rent-controlled apartment in a desirable location in LA. That sounds much harder to replace than anything else. I'd tell the boss I'll pay him as I can, and tell the other guy to go find another place. He may lose his job, but it sounds replaceable, and he can always find a roommate who is a good credit risk while looking if the place is in a desirable location.

    His boss isn't going to jail over the remains of a $1500 bet. If this is a man of normal mental faculties, I'd say live up to whatever bargain he struck. If this is Ken, man code doesn't apply to him. He's pretty clearly fucked in the head in some way. He's essentially a child. If the boss leans on him, tell him to call the cops. I'd never say that to a normal person, but leaning on someone like Ken is akin to hustling tards in billiards and then leaning on them. With bad credit, and his overt strangeness, he could end up homeless. He'll find some other dead end job and this boss won't do shit other than talk tough.

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    Silver Henry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Before you read too much into this, yes, this really is a friend (and not me), as will become apparent from the story. That is, unless you believe I can't come up with $1500 to pay a lost bet.

    The situation:

    "Craig" works at a low-wage, crappy job, and unfortunately his co-workers are not the best quality people. Some of them have violent criminal backgrounds. It's a small company, so we're not talking about a low-wage job at a place like WalMart, where there is a big corporate structure over your head.

    Anyway, Craig's boss "Mark" is pretty much one of those thugs, though I'm not particularly sure of his exact history.

    Craig made various stupid prop bets with Mark, and got in the hole $1500. This added up quickly because he kept doing "double or nothing" and losing. Typically, Craig does not have a gambling problem, so this was surprising, but indeed that's what occurred. The bets themselves were legitimate. Craig was not tricked or scammed. He was just stupid and kept betting the losing side of things, and got way in the hole.

    Craig was paying off something laughable like $30/week. After about 7 weeks of this, Mark grew frustrated and said that he wanted a quicker payoff, and came up with an idea to do it.

    Mark has a friend, who also works at the same company, named "Joe". Joe is not a thug or a past criminal, but is rather more of perpetually broke guy who is horrible with money. Joe is in his mid-40s. Unlike Mark, on the surface he does not seem unpleasant or intimidating. For whatever reason, Joe is flat broke and is getting kicked out of his apartment on February 3rd.

    In mid-January, Mark approached Craig with an idea. "Let Joe move in with you for free for one month, and then he'll start paying half the rent on March 1. If you do that, I will forgive the entire rest of the $1300 debt."

    Craig, thinking that this was his way out of the debt without actually parting with money, agreed.

    Craig told me the whole story yesterday, just 3 days before Joe was set to move in. I explained the big problems here:

    1) Joe is very likely to NEVER pay a dime of rent, as he is clearly terrible with money, and I don't have faith that he will suddenly come up with his half of the rent on March 1 (or any time after).

    2) In Los Angeles, where Craig lives, it is VERY hard to evict roommates. Joe could stretch this out for 4 months, living rent-free (if he knows what tricks to pull), before Craig could get rid of him.

    Craig lives in a rent-controlled apartment, and he's been there for 20 years. He is getting a great buy on the apartment, so it would suck to move out and lose it. However, I will say that the apartment has gotten run down and even has some bug problems, so it wouldn't be the worst thing to leave, even if Craig has to live in a neighborhood that isn't as good. (His current apartment is in a great neighborhood.)

    This is a tough one to decide what is the best advice for Craig.

    If he welches on his agreement at this point, both Mark and Joe will be FURIOUS (since Joe is counting upon moving in there in 2 days), and because Craig has already agreed to this 3 weeks ago. He's also concerned what Mark will do to him physically if he welches.

    At the same time, one Joe moves in, it will become an amazing hassle to ever get a penny out of him, and will highly likely lead to a contentious and difficult eviction.

    After thinking a lot about this, I gave Craig the following advice:

    "Let Joe move in, but be willing to lose the apartment forever if this goes bad. Basically, keep to your end of the bargain, but if Joe doesn't pay on March 1, ask him to leave. If he won't, then don't pay the rent, and both of you will be evicted. At that point, at least you'll be able to start fresh with a new apartment without the deadbeat roommate, and you won't have welched on anything."

    Craig's credit (which will be harmed by an eviction) is not an issue here, because he already has horrible credit. It's just a matter of losing his long-term apartment.

    What advice would you give Craig here?
    My advice to "Craig" would be to cut his hair.

  14. #14
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    A lot of good points being brought up in the thread.

    However, I thought like a lot of you initially.

    At first I said, "Fuck this guy. The agreement was $30/month, so keep paying him $30/month for the rest of 2014 until it's paid off, and if he doesn't like it, too bad."

    Then I realized a few details.

    Basically, a deal is a deal. Sure, it's not legally enforceable, but Craig DID agree to let Joe stay at his place starting Monday, and Joe has expected that for the past 3 weeks (and presumably not looked for anything else). If Craig backs out now, just 2 days beforehand, Joe will be left with nowhere to stay, and will be PISSED, as will Mark.

    It's not like Mark and Joe bullied Craig into letting Joe stay there for free. Then it would be a different story. Here Mark demanded this in lieu of the $30/week payments, and Craig agreed. It would be pretty shitty for him to back out at this point, honestly. And it's not like ripping off some 2+2 nerds. This is welching on some former criminal.

    Mark isn't going to fire Craig, but I agree that Craig should GTFO from that job no matter what.

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SrslySirius View Post
    If Craig has horrible credit, how is he supposed to get a new place after being evicted? I'm working on repairing my credit, and had a hell of a time finding a place in Atlanta.
    He has a relative co-sign for him, and presumably would again.

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    One alternate solution is just to say, "Sorry, turns out I don't have the $ for the rent myself this month, and unless I get a paying roommate, I will be out on the street, too."

    In fact, that might be the best solution, if he can convince Mark this is the truth.

    And actually, it kind of the truth, because Craig was going to borrow from someone (not me) to enable this whole thing. Otherwise he really couldn't afford this month's rent.

  17. #17
    One Percenter Pooh's Avatar
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    Just say its Ken for Christ's sake.

     
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      Muck Ficon: :this

  18. #18
    Diamond BCR's Avatar
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    Has "Craig" ever been diagnosed with anything beyond zaniness? To me, that's the crux of the argument. Craig certainly doesn't appear normal by conventional standards. Martingaling bets with people who are afflicted in some way isn't cool. Has "Craig" collected on a bet in the past of this sort? What's the odds the boss was ever going to pay Craig?

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    I think we can all agree situations like this never turn out good.

    Since he is your friend Druff, pay his marker and make sure he knows its the last time.

    Your friend seriously could end up injured or dead if he is dealing with convicts wanting payment.

    Just help out a pal and be done with it. Now if he does it again, kick him to the curb.

  20. #20
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    I would have rolled the dice and let him move in under one stipulation....if the guy didn't pay the half of the rent when the time came that the debt is canceled all together

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