Steve-O w/ a great article on playing pro poker

[JimmyG_415]

You hit it on the head, Steve.
"It came to a point where I actually disliked playing poker."
That is where I'm at, I live like a mile from a casino, haven't even been in it since I moved here.
Its been at least 6 months since I played a hand.

As for # 2, Being in sales, I had never really worked 40 hours a week, so it was an easy transition to poker.
but my love for the game dropped off a cliff. (I never officially quit, but was comm only and wasn't looking for deals.)

I was averaging 125 a day profit, for about 2 hours a day, (over the 3 years that I tracked) so figure 8-10 hours 6 days a week, = 500 a day/3k a week. What a joke that turned out to be.
There was a point of diminishing returns and it was about at the 2 hour 45 minute mark.
And making money on sports is fucking hard.

The real problem for me was going back to work, & not only the mindset, but the stigma I had to overcome w/others in the industry.

Funny part is I was actually thinking of hitting that place tonight. I doubt it now.


4 Reasons Poker Is Probably a Bad Career Choice for You
http://www.4flush.com/opinion/4-reas...-for-you/16287
It sounds like a lot of fun, but unless you have the incredible good fortune to become one of the two dozen elite players in the game, the life of a professional poker will be an emotional rollercoaster ride.

The life of a pro is not quite what you think it will be, and you’ll have an end game more likely to feature lower back pain and bad beat stories than WSOP bracelets and hour long massages at the table.

Here is why.

What pulled you into poker ends when you turn pro

If you’re like most people you were probably drawn to poker because you fell in love with the game. You loved the strategy, you loved the mind games poker players partake in, you loved the complexity, and you loved the idea of testing your skills against other players.

Well guess what, all of that goes out the window the second you turn pro. Once you decide to take the leap and “go pro” your poker life is consumed by money. Complexity and testing your skills is replaced by maintaining your win rate and looking for good spots.

When poker is paying the bills, it can be a very dreary existence.

If you’ve been in the “real world” you’ll have a hard time

Anyone who has ever had to punch the proverbial time clock in order to pay rent or a mortgage, make a car payment, or simply to eat, is going to have a difficult time adapting to the poker world, where money is a mere tool.

When you play poker for a living you have to have a disregard for money that is hard to understand when you come from the real world.

The utter lack of respect for the money being tossed around in a poker room can be jaw-dropping for people who have had to work for a living (not that poker isn’t work) and this understanding of the value of a dollar can make it hard to take the necessary risks to become a professional player, or at least to become a serious professional player.

Because of this, people who came from the 9-5 world never seem to advance beyond the lower middle-limits, and most have little to no desire to play higher; they just don’t see the point.

For most of these players it seems more logical and reasonable to make $50k with little worry than to play stakes where you can have $50k swings, and where your edge is likely thinner than the thread holding your clothes together.

I suppose if you never had to work 50 hours a week to make 50K you don’t understand how awesome making $50 a year playing cards is, which is why young kids tend to fly through the stakes without much regard for the potential to go broke.

The life of a pro is simply an easier lifestyle to transition to for a young kid who doesn’t have the responsibility of a family or mortgage payments, and who has never really had a career. Going from living with mom and dad with little to no responsibility to poker makes it easier to have little respect for the money you are risking.

Don’t get fooled by the “ballas”

When they are flush with cash after a good run you’ll hear plenty of wild stories, see social media pictures of extravagant spending and once in a lifetime trips, but if you’ve ever wondered why some poker players “go silent” it’s because you can’t always run good –unless you’re Jason Mercier, than you can always run good.

What I’m trying to say, is that unlike a CEO who is flush with cash 24/7, poker players have ups and downs, and if you can’t handle the downs than you’ll have fewer ups.

Burnt out

This is what ended my run as a poker pro. I simply reached a point where I dreaded logging on to my computer or going to Foxwoods. It wasn’t just that poker was no longer fun and that it had become all about making money, it came to a point where I actually disliked playing poker.

I stepped away from poker games for roughly two years; two years without an online hand or a shuffle of a deck of cards.

Even to this day I have no interest in playing anything but recreationally.

[Dan Druff]

I am a little perplexed by the section entitled "If you’ve been in the 'real world' you’ll have a hard time".

While I agree with most of the individual points raised in that section, my overall conclusion about the matter is different from Steve's.

In my opinion, if you worked a number of years at a "real job", you will have MORE of a chance succeeding as a poker grinder, as your respect for money will prevent leaks and promote better bankroll management. The kids who go from college to pro poker are pretty much doomed to go broke.

While it's true that respect for money will be a handicap when it comes to winning tournaments and rising up to the highest stakes, it will also prevent you from going broke. It's a lot easier to resist playing in the exciting "big game" online or at your local casino if you are risk-averse from real-world experience.

The fact that I worked a real job for 8 years prior to playing poker professionally definitely helped me to hold onto what I've won.

[SrslySirius]

I am a little perplexed by the section entitled "If you’ve been in the 'real world' you’ll have a hard time".

While I agree with most of the individual points raised in that section, my overall conclusion about the matter is different from Steve's.

In my opinion, if you worked a number of years at a "real job", you will have MORE of a chance succeeding as a poker grinder, as your respect for money will prevent leaks and promote better bankroll management. The kids who go from college to pro poker are pretty much doomed to go broke.

While it's true that respect for money will be a handicap when it comes to winning tournaments and rising up to the highest stakes, it will also prevent you from going broke. It's a lot easier to resist playing in the exciting "big game" online or at your local casino if you are risk-averse from real-world experience.

The fact that I worked a real job for 8 years prior to playing poker professionally definitely helped me to hold onto what I've won.

Experience with budgeting monthly expenses, responsibly managing debt, and saving for retirement is a great advantage as well. Granted, a lot of people with "real jobs" are too stupid to do this, but it's much more common among that group than your typical poker player.

[BeerAndPoker]

Depends on the person but for a lot of people they get caught up in over spending, moving up too quickly, playing under rolled,etc...

What I will say is for these fortunate people who bink a big score in a WSOP, WPT, or EPT event they really should consider saving enough where they have like 10-15 years of life expenses put away instead of immediately going out purchasing a bunch of homes and other toys. Having a lamborghini may seem nice but dropping a few hundred grand into something that is going to depreciate rapidly in value and takes more money to maintain then your average vehicle is terrible especially if all you net after a win is like two million or whatever. I suppose if you had a lot more to your name prior to that then made but otherwise it's just spur of the moment purchase that won't get the best bang for your buck.

I discussed this briefly on the radio show the other night but Jesse Sylvia was on this MTV show called True Live: I'm a New Millionaire. Jesse finished runner up in the 2012 WSOP ME for $5.2 million but after paying his backers and taxes he had about $2 million left. He seems like a good guy but I question a few of his home purchases, however, he did have a little money prior to winning and if he's a profitable cash game player then it may not matter. The problem is a lot of these guys will go drop a bunch of this in $10k buy-ins the next few years never to get to this place again. It will be a depressing road ahead if you lose a bunch of your money this way knowing you had a few million dollars at one time and that kind of stuff messes with a players mentality.

The other young kid in this show has no business being on this program with the word "Millionaire" in it. He won the New York lottery for $1k a week for life which comes out to about $32k a year in New York and appears to be blowing it away. He wants to turn this money into much more but the way he's spending I'm not sure he can do that. The guys intent is to buy real estate and rent it out so he's trying to get a loan based on money due to him over the years.

Normally I wouldn't watch this kind of show since the majority of MTV programs suck but it was alright. Here is a link below:

http://www.mtv.com/videos/true-life-...32&channelId=1

[SrslySirius]

The other young kid in this show has no business being on this program with the word "Millionaire" in it. He won the New York lottery for $1k a week for life which comes out to about $32k a year in New York and appears to be blowing it away. He wants to turn this money into much more but the way he's spending I'm not sure he can do that. The guys intent is to buy real estate and rent it out so he's trying to get a loan based on money due to him over the years.

Normally I wouldn't watch this kind of program since the majority of MTV programs suck but it was alright. Here is a link below:

http://www.mtv.com/videos/true-life-...32&channelId=1

Did you watch the whole thing? I think the kid did okay. I question his decision to buy rental property, but he has the right idea with finishing his engineering degree and continuing to work full time. If you live a little below your means, save some money from that engineering job, and bank $32k/year on top of it all, becoming a millionaire is a pretty easy goal to attain.

[BeerAndPoker]

Did you watch the whole thing? I think the kid did okay. I question his decision to buy rental property, but he has the right idea with finishing his engineering degree and continuing to work full time. If you live a little below your means, save some money from that engineering job, and bank $32k/year on top of it all, becoming a millionaire is a pretty easy goal to attain.

Yeah, I saw the whole thing. He gets a loan which isn't as much as he wanted but still able to get him a property and goes back to school. If he continues school he will probably be okay but the problem for a lot of people is it can be easy to go back into their old spending ways.

If this guy (Rob) does complete school, get an engineering job, and cut down on the spending then his end game could work out just fine but he must stick to that plan which is easier said then done. The guy seemed to splurge on friends and family way too much early in the show so hopefully he got all of that out of his system.

[ShadyJ]

I am a little perplexed by the section entitled "If you’ve been in the 'real world' you’ll have a hard time".

While I agree with most of the individual points raised in that section, my overall conclusion about the matter is different from Steve's.

In my opinion, if you worked a number of years at a "real job", you will have MORE of a chance succeeding as a poker grinder, as your respect for money will prevent leaks and promote better bankroll management. The kids who go from college to pro poker are pretty much doomed to go broke.

While it's true that respect for money will be a handicap when it comes to winning tournaments and rising up to the highest stakes, it will also prevent you from going broke. It's a lot easier to resist playing in the exciting "big game" online or at your local casino if you are risk-averse from real-world experience.

The fact that I worked a real job for 8 years prior to playing poker professionally definitely helped me to hold onto what I've won.

This is such a generalazation and not even close to being correct. Theres thousands of young grinders who stay at small stakes because they crush it. My coach was a 18 year old kid that had a 50k roll and almost never played above 50nl. Most of them realize it takes a different skillset to play higher stakes and they are smart enough to never go there or at least be overrolled when they move up. The ones you hear about are the ones that go broke or make it in high stakes but theres alot more that make a great living without risking going broke.

[ShadyJ]

I am a little perplexed by the section entitled "If you’ve been in the 'real world' you’ll have a hard time".

While I agree with most of the individual points raised in that section, my overall conclusion about the matter is different from Steve's.

In my opinion, if you worked a number of years at a "real job", you will have MORE of a chance succeeding as a poker grinder, as your respect for money will prevent leaks and promote better bankroll management. The kids who go from college to pro poker are pretty much doomed to go broke.

While it's true that respect for money will be a handicap when it comes to winning tournaments and rising up to the highest stakes, it will also prevent you from going broke. It's a lot easier to resist playing in the exciting "big game" online or at your local casino if you are risk-averse from real-world experience.

The fact that I worked a real job for 8 years prior to playing poker professionally definitely helped me to hold onto what I've won.

I have to disagree with this as well. I think its just who you are. I worked a job and was tight with money luckboxed 30k in a tourney and lost all respect for the value of money. At the time I just didnt know any better had no clue of what bankroll management was. 1k sngs why not? In my case at least I had to learn the hard way.

[Dan Druff]

If you are a 21-year-old with an usually high amount of maturity and respect for money, then you will have a good shot at holding onto your poker winnings.

If you are a 40-year-old guy with a longtime regular job, who is also prone to degeneracy and gambling issues, then you will have very little chance of holding onto your poker winnings.

So, yes, I was generalizing.

But take two people with equal poker skill -- one a guy who has held a steady job for 10 years, and the other a kid right out of college, I will take the steady job guy all day as the more likely one to hold onto his winnings.

[BetCheckBet]

I will sum up article:

If you have lazy work ethic and poor math skills you will suck at poker.

It astounds me how many people think they can half ass poker and make good money. You want to be the best in poker you need to focus on game 24/7 and work way more than "people in real world". Forget about 40 hours a week, expect to study and play twice that. Just like everything in life to be the best you have to put in the effort. I mean who would be stupid enough to think they could play 6 tennis matches a week and expect to play on the ATP.

Sorry for being so rude but seriously...

[Pooh]

Did Jsearles proofread that article?

[Steve-O]

I am a little perplexed by the section entitled "If you’ve been in the 'real world' you’ll have a hard time".

While I agree with most of the individual points raised in that section, my overall conclusion about the matter is different from Steve's.

In my opinion, if you worked a number of years at a "real job", you will have MORE of a chance succeeding as a poker grinder, as your respect for money will prevent leaks and promote better bankroll management. The kids who go from college to pro poker are pretty much doomed to go broke.

While it's true that respect for money will be a handicap when it comes to winning tournaments and rising up to the highest stakes, it will also prevent you from going broke. It's a lot easier to resist playing in the exciting "big game" online or at your local casino if you are risk-averse from real-world experience.

The fact that I worked a real job for 8 years prior to playing poker professionally definitely helped me to hold onto what I've won.

Agree with that assessment, but the article was more about going above the mid limits and beyond being a "grinder". I actually pointed out that people transitioning from the real world generally don't care to play above these levels.

Appreciate the love JimmyG

[Steve-O]

Did Jsearles proofread that article?

Fixed... too used to having an editor now

[Steve-O]

You hit it on the head, Steve.
"It came to a point where I actually disliked playing poker."
That is where I'm at, I live like a mile from a casino, haven't even been in it since I moved here.
Its been at least 6 months since I played a hand.

I'd like to tell you that the passion comes back, but it hasn't for me.

I've played in bursts since I officially quit in 2006, beginning in 2008/2009 but I've never lasted more than a couple of months before I get bored and disillusioned again. I think if I could conveniently play live 3-4 times a week I would, and I'd give it another go, but I'm not driving an hour+ to Foxwoods every day.

[Deal]

I'd like to tell you that the passion comes back, but it hasn't for me.

I've played in bursts since I officially quit in 2006, beginning in 2008/2009 but I've never lasted more than a couple of months before I get bored and disillusioned again. I think if I could conveniently play live 3-4 times a week I would, and I'd give it another go, but I'm not driving an hour+ to Foxwoods every day.

I agree. The passion is dead for me too. Part of the reason is I would have to work a lot harder and longer to make the same money as I did pre-uigea. The environment has changed enough that playing feels too much like work.

I also believe that anybody 'playing by feel' and not mastering the math first is a net loser at the game. There are very few garretts left that can keep believing they are good at the game while losing consistently.

[Steve-O]

I'd like to tell you that the passion comes back, but it hasn't for me.

I've played in bursts since I officially quit in 2006, beginning in 2008/2009 but I've never lasted more than a couple of months before I get bored and disillusioned again. I think if I could conveniently play live 3-4 times a week I would, and I'd give it another go, but I'm not driving an hour+ to Foxwoods every day.

I agree. The passion is dead for me too. Part of the reason is I would have to work a lot harder and longer to make the same money as I did pre-uigea. The environment has changed enough that playing feels too much like work.

I also believe that anybody 'playing by feel' and not mastering the math first is a net loser at the game. There are very few garretts left that can keep believing they are good at the game while losing consistently.

This is definitely a part of it. I mean pre-UIGEA I could maintain a 30% ROI playing $20, $30, and $50 S&G's, now the best players are in the 10% range, and 5% is seen as decent. Why anyone would play 100 $50 S&G's in a day to make $250 (with a huge increase in variance) is beyond me.

I think the only real money left in poker at this point (without being some kind of wunderkind or putting in 80 hours a week grinding VPP's) is playing hi/lo games, which essentially negate every skill of a good NLHE or PLO player.

[JimmyG_415]

I'd like to tell you that the passion comes back, but it hasn't for me.

I also believe that anybody 'playing by feel' and not mastering the math first is a net loser at the game. There are very few garretts left that can keep believing they are good at the game while losing consistently.

I can't tell you how many of my friends just refuse to learn pot odds.
And think it doesn't matter at all.
I'll get a text a midnight, "how can this guy call my raise w/2 pairs?"
Like if you knew pot odds, he probably couldn't fold.

They are all "for sure up", yet none of them keep track.
My friends that play poker, they lie/ they brag/they lie just so they can brag.
It is just amazing that they think i believe them.


Steve-O,
how do you keep your interest in poker? I mean for the writing, or is that just a job now, too?
Because my love for the poker gossip was gone 2-3 years before my love of the game.

[Steve-O]

I also believe that anybody 'playing by feel' and not mastering the math first is a net loser at the game. There are very few garretts left that can keep believing they are good at the game while losing consistently.

I can't tell you how many of my friends just refuse to learn pot odds.
And think it doesn't matter at all.
I'll get a text a midnight, "how can this guy call my raise w/2 pairs?"
Like if you knew pot odds, he probably couldn't fold.

They are all "for sure up", yet none of them keep track.
My friends that play poker, they lie/ they brag/they lie just so they can brag.
It is just amazing that they think i believe them.


Steve-O,
how do you keep your interest in poker? I mean for the writing, or is that just a job now, too?
Because my love for the poker gossip was gone 2-3 years before my love of the game.

Actually, I've always enjoyed writing, so it's not something I would stop doing whether I was paid or not. Most of what I write about now is iGaming stuff and legislative efforts so it's all new. I also like to put my thoughts to paper (or MS Word) on different topics.

The gossip stuff is comical to me, people getting outraged over and over again at the exact same things. The poker world is like Bill Murray in Groundhog Day only the cast of characters change

[abrown83]

I also believe that anybody 'playing by feel' and not mastering the math first is a net loser at the game. There are very few garretts left that can keep believing they are good at the game while losing consistently.

I can't tell you how many of my friends just refuse to learn pot odds.
And think it doesn't matter at all.
I'll get a text a midnight, "how can this guy call my raise w/2 pairs?"
Like if you knew pot odds, he probably couldn't fold.

They are all "for sure up", yet none of them keep track.
My friends that play poker, they lie/ they brag/they lie just so they can brag.
It is just amazing that they think i believe them.

Mix this plus not understanding position and you have your average donk.

Also, peoples inability to mix up play is hilarious to watch. Everyone reads about how being tight aggressive is optimal and then they refuse to change how they play based on table dynamics.

I watch so many otherwise good poker players, play tight aggressive at a tight passive table .... it sort of crushes your soul after awhile.

[son of lockman]

While it's true that respect for money will be a handicap when it comes to winning tournaments and rising up to the highest stakes, it will also prevent you from going broke. It's a lot easier to resist playing in the exciting "big game" online or at your local casino if you are risk-averse from real-world experience.

So you're telling me Phil Hellmuth a Jew like you has no respect for money?

I sure don't see him wearing $1000 suits. Or driving a Lamborghini. Lives in a home any common working man could accord.

Sure his wife's a doctor and prolly attends to his head problems.

But he does respect money and does win at the table.

And the only reason he beat your set in the World Series was he had you covered and had some outs.

So you can take that no respect for $$$ cr#p and toss it in the toilet.

Bankroll management, expected value of your cards, the position of your seat, and quickly sizing up your opponents is what you need for long time success in poker.