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Thread: Salaried workers being "forced" to work regular unpaid overtime -- right or wrong?

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    Salaried workers being "forced" to work regular unpaid overtime -- right or wrong?

    Here is an interesting article about Facebook COO Sheryl Sandberg, who claims that she always goes home at 5:30:

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/16/tech/w...html?hpt=hp_c1

    This drew some controversy because many tech workers are expected to work as many as 40 unpaid overtime hours per week, and often fear losing their jobs if they don't.

    Many years ago, the concept of "exempt" employees was established in regards to overtime. Employees are "exempt" (from overtime payment requirements) if they meet various criteria, including minimum pay level, salaried pay structure (as opposed to hourly), and have a certain job type.

    A lawyer's website about the matter explains exempt jobs as the following:

    The job duties of the traditional "learned professions" are exempt. These include lawyers, doctors, dentists, teachers, architects, clergy. Also included are registered nurses (but not LPNs), accountants (but not bookkeepers), engineers (who have engineering degrees or the equivalent and perform work of the sort usually performed by licensed professional engineers), actuaries, scientists (but not technicians), pharmacists, and other employees who perform work requiring "advanced knowledge" similar to that historically associated with the traditional learned professions.

    Professionally exempt work means work which is predominantly intellectual, requires specialized education, and involves the exercise of discretion and judgment. Professionally exempt workers must have education beyond high school, and usually beyond college, in fields that are distinguished from (more "academic" than) the mechanical arts or skilled trades. Advanced degrees are the most common measure of this, but are not absolutely necessary if an employee has attained a similar level of advanced education through other means (and perform essentially the same kind of work as similar employees who do have advanced degrees).
    So basically the engineer has the exempt job, and the cable installer has the non-exempt job, even if the cable installer is making more money than the engineer.

    Being an exempt worker is generally NOT a good thing for the employee. This is because you completely lack rights when it comes to work hours and overtime.

    This was done in response to employers' concerns that "professional" workers occasionally need to work extra hours in order to accomplish a certain task, but that this should be considered part of the job and shouldn't cost the employer extra.

    For example, if a programmer is trying to finish a certain module of his program, but 5:00 hits and he feels he has two more hours of work left to get it done, he should be able to finish his work without the employer having to make the choice to either stop him in the middle or pay him time-and-a-half to continue. Same with a teacher who spends extra hours in a given week preparing lessons or grading papers. She shouldn't be eligible for overtime, either, and that makes sense.

    However, like many laws making exceptions, this has unfortunately evolved into a situation that is far from its original intention and spirit. It went from a common-sense solution to one-size-fits-all overtime requirements to a legalized form of employee abuse.

    Many employers came to realize that this exemption from overtime pay, while originally intended for only occasional use, gave them the right to demand unlimited free work from their employees. If you're paying someone for 40 hours per week, but can legally ask them to regularly work much more than that, why bother hiring another 40-hour employee when you can simply ask your existing employee to work 80 -- and not pay him a penny more!

    The free market takes care of this problem to some degree when the job market is good, but in times of recession (like now), people are terrified of losing their jobs and will do pretty much anything their boss asks. It also doesn't help that a "monkey see, monkey do" situation tends to occur here. A new employee sees his peers working 60-80 hours a week, and he actually feels guilty (or fears being judged as lazy) if he only works the 40 hours he's being paid for. Indeed, the guy making noise about regular unpaid overtime is probably the first one to go when layoffs come around, and it's very tempting for an employer to replace him when 100 resumes are flowing into the HR department daily for that guy's job.

    The exempt employee law needs to be modified. If I were crafting the law, I would allow for 10 extra hours to be worked per week without pay, and a 4-week-per-year exemption for unlimited hours. However, for the other 48 weeks, any hours worked over 50 should be compensated at an hourly rate equivalent to what they are making per hour through their salary. I feel this would be a happy medium, allowing employers to occasionally (4 weeks per year) get free overtime out of their professional employees during "crunch time" (such as a deadline), but not to routinely force people to work 60+ hours per week for no additional pay.

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    Rest In Peace son of lockman's Avatar
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    Pretty rediculous as only a business owner should and does have to do that....

    I used to work 70-80 hours a week with my auto business...

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    Diamond shortbuspoker's Avatar
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    Imo it depends on the wording of the contract that you sign or the conditions that you negotiate before you're hired. A lot of the bitching comes from people who get tired of working the hours although they well know ahead of time what they are getting into when they take the position. That said you can always do what I did and quit if you don't like it.

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    H*ll once I worked 30 days in a row!...

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortbuspoker View Post
    Imo it depends on the wording of the contract that you sign or the conditions that you negotiate before you're hired. A lot of the bitching comes from people who get tired of working the hours although they well know ahead of time what they are getting into when they take the position. That said you can always do what I did and quit if you don't like it.
    They don't need to put this into contracts because you are signing your rights away to overtime when you sign the standard federal form acknowledging your exempt status.

    Many employees come in believing they will be working 40 (or close to 40) hours per week, but are pressured to work 60-80. Yes, they can quit, but that's not such an easy decision when the job market is terrible and you need to support your family.

    This "exempt" law is being abused and isn't working out the way it was intended, so it needs to be reformed.

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    I'm a salaried employee but my salary is based on 2080 hrs. for the year & is written into my terms of employment. Anything over 40 hrs/week should be overtime. Asking salaried employees to work unpaid OT is absolute BS.

    I could see the case of school teachers because, once they have been doing it for a few years, they don't have to do much during the summer to get ready for the upcoming year & basically have 2+ months off. The first couple summers are defnitely a lot more work for them but after they get their curriculum & evaluation process down pat it gets easier.
    (•_•) ..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hockey Guy
    I'd say good luck in the freeroll but I'm pretty sure you'll go on a bender to self-sabotage yourself & miss it completely or use it as the excuse of why you didn't cash.

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    Diamond shortbuspoker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by shortbuspoker View Post
    Imo it depends on the wording of the contract that you sign or the conditions that you negotiate before you're hired. A lot of the bitching comes from people who get tired of working the hours although they well know ahead of time what they are getting into when they take the position. That said you can always do what I did and quit if you don't like it.
    They don't need to put this into contracts because you are signing your rights away to overtime when you sign the standard federal form acknowledging your exempt status.

    Many employees come in believing they will be working 40 (or close to 40) hours per week, but are pressured to work 60-80. Yes, they can quit, but that's not such an easy decision when the job market is terrible and you need to support your family.

    This "exempt" law is being abused and isn't working out the way it was intended, so it needs to be reformed.
    All I can say on the subject is that I've had two different jobs where I was salaried management and I was told up front that it was at least 54 hours minimum per week both times. Hell the Black Friday before Circuit City went under I worked 3AM until 1AM the next day with two 45 minute lunch breaks.

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    Rest In Peace son of lockman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hockey Guy View Post
    I'm a salaried employee but my salary is based on 2080 hrs. for the year & is written into my terms of employment. Anything over 40 hrs/week should be overtime. Asking salaried employees to work unpaid OT is absolute BS.

    I could see the case of school teachers because, once they have been doing it for a few years, they don't have to do much during the summer to get ready for the upcoming year & basically have 2+ months off. The first couple summers are defnitely a lot more work for them but after they get their curriculum & evaluation process down pat it gets easier.

    Give me a break as California school teachers work about 7 hours a day tops...

    This all started in the 70s when the students would take a test...Then the teachers would collect them and pass them out to other students in the class to grade them while the answers were called out...

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortbuspoker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post

    They don't need to put this into contracts because you are signing your rights away to overtime when you sign the standard federal form acknowledging your exempt status.

    Many employees come in believing they will be working 40 (or close to 40) hours per week, but are pressured to work 60-80. Yes, they can quit, but that's not such an easy decision when the job market is terrible and you need to support your family.

    This "exempt" law is being abused and isn't working out the way it was intended, so it needs to be reformed.
    All I can say on the subject is that I've had two different jobs where I was salaried management and I was told up front that it was at least 54 hours minimum per week both times. Hell the Black Friday before Circuit City went under I worked 3AM until 1AM the next day with two 45 minute lunch breaks.
    I don't have a problem with it if the companies are honest and tell employees, "You'll be working XXXX number of unpaid overtime hours even though you will only be paid for 40." If you know this and still accept the job, it's your fault if you bitch about it later.

    However, companies rarely do this, because they don't want to scare away the best candidates.

    Unfortunately, since companies are not an unlimited source of money, when faced with the choice of "Do we hire another person or just make everyone else work more for unpaid overtime?", you can imagine which choice is more appealing, especially in an economy where jobs are scarce.

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    Rest In Peace son of lockman's Avatar
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    You know this thread changed somewhat since the start...

    But Demos want to give everything away and tax,tax, tax...

    GOP people want to cheat, cheat, cheat and line their pockets...

    Neither will work together...

    Demos want the death penalty abolished but will kill unborn babies...

    GOP wants the death penalty but wants no abortion...

    Maybe a dictatorship is better?...

    I mean it worked for Rome for a thousand years if you controlled the military...

    Expect opem rebellion within 20 years as the government already knows it's going to happen...

    Why else would they be suspending rights and monitoring you?...

    Remember it happened on a massive scale in 1789 in France and 1917 in Russia...

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    Diamond Hockey Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by son of lockman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hockey Guy View Post
    I'm a salaried employee but my salary is based on 2080 hrs. for the year & is written into my terms of employment. Anything over 40 hrs/week should be overtime. Asking salaried employees to work unpaid OT is absolute BS.

    I could see the case of school teachers because, once they have been doing it for a few years, they don't have to do much during the summer to get ready for the upcoming year & basically have 2+ months off. The first couple summers are defnitely a lot more work for them but after they get their curriculum & evaluation process down pat it gets easier.

    Give me a break as California school teachers work about 7 hours a day tops...

    This all started in the 70s when the students would take a test...Then the teachers would collect them and pass them out to other students in the class to grade them while the answers were called out...
    Did you even read what you quoted? I have no idea what side you are arguing for.

    I'm pretty sure my post says that school teachers are perhaps the one occupation that unpaid overtime would be warranted since they get 2 months off in the summer that they are still technically being paid for. From what you have written I'm assuming that would also be your position.
    (•_•) ..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hockey Guy
    I'd say good luck in the freeroll but I'm pretty sure you'll go on a bender to self-sabotage yourself & miss it completely or use it as the excuse of why you didn't cash.

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    All depends on if and how much your bonus(s) are, if you aren't getting one or it's very minimal amount of money then it's the workers fault for accepting the job imo. If it's the only job you can find then you obviously accept the work and don't stop searching for a different gig.

    Standard shit imo

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    Rest In Peace, Godfather delaware's Avatar
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    DRUFF ITS BEEN THIS WAY FOR YEARS. BUT YOUR SUPPOSE TO GET A BIG BONUS AT YEARS END.PEOPLE DO IT FOR THE TITLE THEY GET AND ARE PAID MORE MONEY THAT MIGHT END UP BEING 3 DOLLORS A HOUR FOR ALL THE OVERTIME. ITS THE TITLE THEY WANT NOT THE MONEY

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    If you have never owned a busness and walked a mile in there shoes, than think about what you are saying, when a company hires a employe there is the assumption of performance and productivity and if the employee is not able to meet these quotas then they will have to make up for the short fall some how, unless they are not suited for the work, And not willing to try to adapt to the work or to meet deadlines, further more some company's use salarys so to be able to have no problems to make payroll as part of a yearly budget.

    In my busness I deal with very large company's that will take up to. 5 months to pay large invoices and when monthly payroll often.exceeds 30k per month for 5 emplyies without putting a Pepsi in my fridge and no checks comming in it can be difficult to pay overtime, my employees understand this and get the jobs done. If some one would make fuss about it I would pay them ther OT and then hand shake and good luck in your future, this may seem harsh but it is reality, if you want over time and that shit try a government job maby or McDonald's

    I will however give generous bonuses and bank extra days worked during stats at the end of the year.

    Druff your very critical about this do you have any experiance you would like to share? If this is correct you work on your computer (playing poker) at your home you have 0 employees and no a Mexican cutting your lawn is not an employee
    You support no other families other than your owne and contribute 0.0 to society unless there is a discount coupon attached to it?
    How can you have a opinion on this subject?

    Walk a mile in a employers shoes you will find it is usually up hill and against the wind when it comes to employees, this is why I have mostly automated my busness.

    If I had a dime for every time I had some one on Friday or Monday call me and say they had bad sushi the night befor I would have a extra 10 k in the bank......... I never onece got sic eating sushi lol.
    all hail Hydra



    Originally Posted by DanDruff:Since I'm a 6'2" Republican with an average-sized nose and a last name which doesn't end with "stein", "man", or "berg", I can hide among the goyim and remain undetected unless I open my mouth about money matters.

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    I don't know what moron came up with this "exempt" list and when, but in my world it is all about the contract I don't care what you do for a living. Why the hell should what you do matter anyway? The contract stipulates what is required of you in the matter of hours if you are on salary, end of fucking story. Any overtime is time worked outside the parameters of the contact language.

    This is coming from a small business owner.

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    What a surprise that Baron can't make a serious argument here without first stopping to troll me!

    Anyway, Baron, instead of spouting off your usual ill-informed, broken-English rhetoric about me, perhaps you should just ask a few questions.

    As you probably know, I'm 40 years old. I have not been playing professional poker for 20 years. So what did I do before poker?

    I worked a regular job for over 8 years. I was at a large company for about 2 1/2 years, and then a small company for about 5 1/2 years, before quitting to play poker full time.

    I worked as a programmer. Programmers are among the most abused employees when it comes to unpaid overtime. I got to experience this situation firsthand.

    It's not usually about productivity. If an employee sucks and is slower than everyone else, I don't blame his employer for asking him to work extra in order to "catch up", in lieu of firing him. However, if ALL of the employees are expected to put in massive unpaid overtime every week, it's obviously not a productivity issue, because it would be highly unlikely that EVERYONE is unproductive.

    I am not anti-business here. In many cases, I think businesses get screwed and taken advantage of by their employees. In this case, however, businesses are definitely the ones taking advantage of a law meant to make life simpler and easier, and they have turned it into a situation where they can coerce employees to work 20-40 hours per week for free. I'm sorry, but that's just wrong, unless the employee knew the situation coming in.

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    Diamond BCR's Avatar
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    Are you watching Benjamin like 16 hours a day?

    This is a position that I wouldn't expect out of you, because it's kind of anti-republican ideology. Bush tried to do almost the exact opposite of this in 2003 or '04. Essentially he tried to strengthen low-paid workers rights' (the cable worker in your analogy), while weakening anyone over like $60k(the tech engineer) making them automatically exempt iirc. It was widely supported by corporations, as they would save a lot on their higher-paid employees, and would far rather pay time and a half to guy's making $12 an hour rather than higher paid workers. He thought the concessions to the lower-paid employees would make it more palatable to the country as far as opinion. There was a big fight with firefighters and nurses iirc, and eventually it was watered down and somewhat squashed, with only elements of it making it through. (I'm going on memory here, so it may have passed or been shot down totally, but it was certainly watered down)

    Really, in a global economy, competing with countries that are simply hungrier than we are, where this is a matter of honor rather than legality, it's an almost impossible problem to solve which results in sometimes overpaid union employees that are hard to demonize, like firefighters, working 2- 24 hour shifts, getting 8 hours ot, which they sleep through half of before waking to eat and lift fending off any legislation that would change it, and others without a unified voice and little options to simply suck it up, or go elsewhere.

    It is just the natural evolution of a global economy if you want to be competitive. The temp worker who works 3 years without benefits until the company deems them employable, and eligible for full compensation; the worker of which you are describing who is either tricked, coerced, or simply out of options and is compelled by life to take a job that he's going to live at, are all just the progression of things that have been going on for a long time.

    What you are proposing would certainly be shot down by any Republican, and in this economy, probably rightfully so, though I don't often take that position with them, but it's a uniquely bad time. You probably know this, and while you often have shown an open-mindedness on certain conservative ideology that you disagree with, it's usually not in this vein.

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    I have a lot of friends/family that have recently been entry level lawyers or medical residents. It is absolutely ridiculous the hours these people are expected to work, somewhere in the neighborhood of 80-120 hours/week. However, everyone knows exactly what they are getting into and there is a light at the end of the tunnel, meaning you put in your time and work for basically free when you are young, then after you put in the time and move up the ladder (attending physician/law firm partner) someone else is doing all the work for you and you are making all the $$.

    I think most salaried jobs that require crazy hours are like this, meaning you know what you are getting into and there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Unfortunately, when jobs are scarce and competition for them is fierce, you are forced to knowingly put yourself in bad situations.

    For example, I have a friend who is a consultant who is working 100 hour days for a firm with no real chance for advancement in the near future, but he doesn't really have a choice because openings for better spots are so limited and he is competing with people who are qualified for way better jobs but are settling because they don't have a choice.

    Still, I would much rather be in this spot than a professional online poker player in the US with no backup plan that does not have the bankroll or skill to squeeze a living in today's poker world.

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    It really depends WHO the employer is you are working for. If it is a large and established company that is just taking advantage of people, for example Enterprise Rent-A-Car, it is shameless.

    If you work for a start up or small business, it is a lot more acceptable, especially in jobs where you are delivering something by a specific date. If it isn't done, you get it done. People that understand this concept make the best employees, and employers that understand how to incentive their employees and reward them make the best employers.

    Growing up, my dad was a workaholic, leaving at 5:30 am to beat traffic, coming home at 6 and often putting in a few more hours after that. His employer took advantage of him at times early on, but the relatively small company he started at became the beast that is now Intel. Employees that nickle and dime and complain rarely go the extra mile to do a good job, just the same as employers that do it to their employees typically have shitty customer service/reputations. It's a balance.

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    Gold Suicide King's Avatar
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    When I was a part time supervisor at UPS they would abuse the living shit out of us. I remember people arguing with the full time supe about what the definition of a part time job is, and his reply was "its a job, be happy you have that". Of course they got sued and we we all got a back pay settlement. After the lawsuit they made us all timecards and we would clock in and out as hourly workers.

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