Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 51

Thread: Laptops being hacked from Hotel Arts at EPT Barcelona

  1. #21
    Gold Steve-O's Avatar
    Reputation
    36
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    1,812
    Load Metric
    65670988
    If you think Henri Jaakola is from the US I just don't know what to say. He's obviously Finnish or from somewhere close by. I'm pretty sure Jens doesn't have an abundance of close friends from the US he travels to EPT events with.

    If you read the f-Secure report you'll see that Henri had the same RAT Trojan on his computer as well.

     
    Comments
      
      Deal: kudos for entertaining the village idiot
    I write things about poker at my Poker Blog and elsewhere on the Internets

  2. #22
    Platinum garrett's Avatar
    Reputation
    29
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    east coast
    Posts
    4,259
    Load Metric
    65670988
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve-O View Post
    If you think Henri Jaakola is from the US I just don't know what to say. He's obviously Finnish or from somewhere close by. I'm pretty sure Jens doesn't have an abundance of close friends from the US he travels to EPT events with.

    If you read the f-Secure report you'll see that Henri had the same RAT Trojan on his computer as well.
    Did not read it, assumed this was the case. These two were obviously targeted (possibly others), certainly appears more like an inside the "poker world" job on these two, less like the hotel as he seems to be stuck on.

    Deal still troll reppin in serious threads. Never mind that useless pinhead, he secretly stalks me, but I am flattered.

  3. #23
    Bronze
    Reputation
    22
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Van City
    Posts
    462
    Load Metric
    65670988
    http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=280

    The silence from PS on this is truly deafening...and quite enlightening in a strange way..

    I can confirm I was today acknowledged by them that they have read this thread. See my / Jeans's twitter for details. It's a bit sad that all they care about is me potentially breaking the NDA instead of commenting on the actual case here. First things first eh?
    thats from a guy who went to one of those meeting pokerstars invites players come check out office n talk about how games run.
    his twitter is https://twitter.com/chuckbasspoker

    few gems

    Miikka Anttonen ‏@chuckbasspoker 7h

    So I got two emails today, both from Stars. #1 is saying they think I broke the NDA with my posts #111 and #117 in Jeans conclusion thread,
    and #2 a group email to reps questioning if what I implied was correct. It's pretty funny IMO that they a) do this but don't care to respond
    in the thread, b) do this group email thing to Stars-struck reps who we both know weren't really listening/caring about the issue. And now
    they will probably eventually post saying what I said was false knowing I can't comment because if I do I'll break the NDA and get sued.

    pokerstars basically told these guys who visited that jens was the one who wanted to go home. but jens is saying pokerstars told him they had it covered(regarding filing police report n getting authorities involved) and it was best for him to go home.. LOL

  4. #24
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
    Reputation
    10110
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    54,626
    Blog Entries
    2
    Load Metric
    65670988
    This is pretty much the "Monica Lewinsky" moment for Stars.

    They've been engaged in various shady behaviors over the years, but have dodged much consequence because they were somehow able to worm out of the controversies.

    Finally something so clear and attention-grabbing has occurred that it's hard to ignore.

    LOL @ the idiots in the thread on 2+2 trying to blame the victim. These people really need some reading comprehension courses, because it's 100% clear that Stars was in lie-and-cover-up mode from the very first moment they learned of the incident.

  5. #25
    Poker Investigative Journalist
    Reputation
    70
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    341
    Load Metric
    65670988
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    This is pretty much the "Monica Lewinsky" moment for Stars.

    They've been engaged in various shady behaviors over the years, but have dodged much consequence because they were somehow able to worm out of the controversies.

    Finally something so clear and attention-grabbing has occurred that it's hard to ignore.

    LOL @ the idiots in the thread on 2+2 trying to blame the victim. These people really need some reading comprehension courses, because it's 100% clear that Stars was in lie-and-cover-up mode from the very first moment they learned of the incident.
    For reasons I've elaborated on in an editorial at Flushdraw, I think the real culprits here are the Barcelona Arts execs. I have little doubt that they've applied extreme pressure here on Stars to find a way to drop the matter, and part of that pressure included forcing them to lie to Kyllonen and get him the hell out of Spain after the hacking attacks. I suspect that Stars would have considerable difficulty in securing as "high quality" a venue as the Barcelona Arts if they wanted to move it but keep a big-name EPT event in Spain.

  6. #26
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
    Reputation
    10110
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    54,626
    Blog Entries
    2
    Load Metric
    65670988
    Quote Originally Posted by haleylh View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    This is pretty much the "Monica Lewinsky" moment for Stars.

    They've been engaged in various shady behaviors over the years, but have dodged much consequence because they were somehow able to worm out of the controversies.

    Finally something so clear and attention-grabbing has occurred that it's hard to ignore.

    LOL @ the idiots in the thread on 2+2 trying to blame the victim. These people really need some reading comprehension courses, because it's 100% clear that Stars was in lie-and-cover-up mode from the very first moment they learned of the incident.
    For reasons I've elaborated on in an editorial at Flushdraw, I think the real culprits here are the Barcelona Arts execs. I have little doubt that they've applied extreme pressure here on Stars to find a way to drop the matter, and part of that pressure included forcing them to lie to Kyllonen and get him the hell out of Spain after the hacking attacks. I suspect that Stars would have considerable difficulty in securing as "high quality" a venue as the Barcelona Arts if they wanted to move it but keep a big-name EPT event in Spain.
    Feel free to post your flushdraw articles here whenever you want.

    Here's the one Haley is referring to: http://www.flushdraw.net/news/curiou...aptop-hacking/

  7. #27
    Bronze
    Reputation
    13
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Devon, England.
    Posts
    98
    Load Metric
    65670988
    Would the execs of this 484 room hotel know exactly who are the nosebleed online players among their 1,000+ guests? Poker Stars staff certainly would.

    Also consider this; you cannot play on international sites from within Spain. Spanish poker players can play on Spanish sites only, PokerStars.es for example. The hacked players would likely only be playing on sites you cannot access from Spain. Surely the hotel execs and any shady friends they have are Spanish residents?

    The more I think about this the more I'm inclined to agree that one or more rogue Stars employees could be involved in the conspiracy.

  8. #28
    Gold Steve-O's Avatar
    Reputation
    36
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    1,812
    Load Metric
    65670988
    Quote Originally Posted by haleylh View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    This is pretty much the "Monica Lewinsky" moment for Stars.

    They've been engaged in various shady behaviors over the years, but have dodged much consequence because they were somehow able to worm out of the controversies.

    Finally something so clear and attention-grabbing has occurred that it's hard to ignore.

    LOL @ the idiots in the thread on 2+2 trying to blame the victim. These people really need some reading comprehension courses, because it's 100% clear that Stars was in lie-and-cover-up mode from the very first moment they learned of the incident.
    For reasons I've elaborated on in an editorial at Flushdraw, I think the real culprits here are the Barcelona Arts execs. I have little doubt that they've applied extreme pressure here on Stars to find a way to drop the matter, and part of that pressure included forcing them to lie to Kyllonen and get him the hell out of Spain after the hacking attacks. I suspect that Stars would have considerable difficulty in securing as "high quality" a venue as the Barcelona Arts if they wanted to move it but keep a big-name EPT event in Spain.
    It's plausible, but I have a different theory.

    As many people in the original thread on 2+2 had said; it's not too hard to get a front desk worker to hand you a new key card. The simplest explanation in my opinion is that a group of poker players (or hangers-on) who travel the Euro circuit see a high-stakes pro leave the lobby on the day a tournament begins and walk up to the desk and ask for a new room key in that person's name. Dress nice, be pleasant, promise to bring the old key back immediately, maybe leave them a tip for their help.

    Perhaps there is more reconnaissance than this (maybe they are staying at the hotel as well and see what room said player is staying in), or even a bribe, but considering it has happened at other stops, it doesn't seem like it's isolated to the Barcelona Arts.

    What's the worst that happens? They ask for ID at the front desk, and you say, it's locked in my room! They still refuse and you leave.

    My second guess is that it's a couple of low-level PokerStars employees, as the whole "contacted the Isle of Man authorities" seems unnecessary otherwise
    I write things about poker at my Poker Blog and elsewhere on the Internets

  9. #29
    Poker Investigative Journalist
    Reputation
    70
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    341
    Load Metric
    65670988
    Quote Originally Posted by GaryQQQ View Post
    Would the execs of this 484 room hotel know exactly who are the nosebleed online players among their 1,000+ guests? Poker Stars staff certainly would.

    Also consider this; you cannot play on international sites from within Spain. Spanish poker players can play on Spanish sites only, PokerStars.es for example. The hacked players would likely only be playing on sites you cannot access from Spain. Surely the hotel execs and any shady friends they have are Spanish residents?

    The more I think about this the more I'm inclined to agree that one or more rogue Stars employees could be involved in the conspiracy.
    It's possible, but I'd think that at least half (and probably more) of the attendees at any major EPT stop could be guessed due to previous attendance at EPT events.

    So let's say I'm a Swedish scammer named, ohhh, Modaham Snowkorrie, and I've got a few friends scattered throughout Europe who have helped me with various scams in the past. One of them is a Spanish cheater who also happens to have an in at the Barcelona Art, where lo and behold, an EPT event is about to be held. All I need to do is figure out how to gain access to the laptops.

    It wouldn't be too hard to assemble a list of probable event attendees, and then have my Spanish friend use his presumed connections with the Barcelona Arts workers to gain access to the rooms of a few of the players who match up to my list of possible victims.

    The fact that it was done in Spain -- where the vast majority of normal Spanish players can play only on pokerstars.sp and thus would have no access to Kyllonen and other victims online anyway -- suggests that this was done both as a matter of convenience and that multiple people were involved.

  10. #30
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
    Reputation
    10110
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    54,626
    Blog Entries
    2
    Load Metric
    65670988
    Lee Jones responded. Pretty obnoxious response, and it answers little:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Jones View Post
    Hi folks -

    This thread relates to issues that are important to poker players, so it’s important to PokerStars. While this is our first comment in this particular thread, we do read a large volume of player comments on 2+2. Since first becoming aware of this issue, we have made various comments on 2+2, and replied to inquiries from various media outlets and emails sent directly to PokerStars.

    Why PokerStars said twice that local Spanish police were involved, when they were not

    One of the key issues in this thread is why PokerStars said publicly (on 2+2) and privately (in conversation with Jens) that the Spanish police had been notified during EPT Barcelona. We said those things because, at the time, we thought that they were true.

    As Jens has said in his posts on here, there was a meeting involving him; another player; our Director of Live Events; and our Live Events Security Manager. During that meeting, Jens advised our staff that he wanted the police to be called. As he will recall, our Live Events Security Manager left that meeting to make this happen. The manager went directly to the hotel staff and asked them to call the police.

    Our Live Events Security Manager understood clearly from the hotel’s representative that the hotel would then contact the police. Indeed, our Live Events Security Manager reported this back to Jens in Barcelona, specifically referring to a special division of the Spanish national police. Confident that the police had been called, the Security Manager also reported this to other senior PokerStars management, including myself, who posted this news in the thread.

    We later discovered that the hotel did not contact the police as requested. We do not know why the hotel did not do so but we deeply regret our failure at the time to follow through and ensure that it did. This was a mistake, and we will work hard to avoid similar mistakes in the future. When we discovered it, we directly notified Jens.

    PokerStars’ liability and responsibility in these kinds of situations

    As our players and many members of the 2+2 community can attest, PokerStars exercises deep and wide authority on all matters related to play on our sites and within the confines of the tournament floor during our Live Events. Outside these environments our responsibility and jurisdiction is much more limited.

    When these worlds collide, there’s even more complexity. For instance, under various European data protection laws, it is illegal for us to publicly identify the names or User IDs of people who are alleged to have breached our Terms of Service.

    We have previously obtained legal advice on this very issue and our lawyers advised us that we cannot publicly disclose names or other personally-identifying information in the context of fraud on PokerStars (or elsewhere).

    At the same time, we are under no legal obligation to report suspected fraud to outside authorities. In this case, however, not only did we report activity that we believed might be related to the incident involving Jens, but – as Jens related – one of our security officers spent two weeks compiling an extensive report and evidence to provide to the appropriate authorities.

    As it relates to publicly disclosing our efforts in this case, as a general rule, PokerStars does not publicly comment where we do not have anything substantially new to contribute. We have previously commented publicly that we have supported the relevant law enforcement agencies in their investigation of the issues. PokerStars is not a law enforcement agency, and does not have the power to arrest or prosecute individuals who are suspected of criminal activities. Thus, throughout this period, we have compiled information and reported it to our local law enforcement authorities (the Isle of Man Police) as they have a specific unit which deals with international sharing of such information. Furthermore, they are the appropriate authorities for us to contact and inform.

    We have received written confirmation that IOMP has received our report and has referred it on to police authorities in other relevant jurisdictions. PokerStars is very keen that matters be formally investigated by the appropriate police force(s); however, clearly we cannot influence any police investigation decisions anywhere and can do no more than offer full and continuing support to any formal investigation.

    Allegations of PokerStars staff involvement in fraud against players

    We understand that the failures to contact Spanish police have caused some players to speculate that PokerStars, or some of its staff, must have a motive for doing so. It has even been speculated that PokerStars staff might have been involved in what happened to Jens at EPT Barcelona. PokerStars deeply regrets this inference. Within a few hours of even the first suggestion on 2+2 that there might be involvement of PokerStars staff in inappropriate behavior, our Director of Internal Audit and Security was made aware of the situation, and has continued to monitor the issue. We are aware of no evidence that suggests any involvement by PokerStars staff in this allegedly criminal behavior but if any is presented we will investigate it.

    What PokerStars is doing to reduce the risk of this happening again in the future

    PokerStars recognizes that high stakes poker players (like any other group of people making significant financial transactions on the Internet) are attractive targets for fraudsters. While players are responsible for their own personal security and personal computer security, PokerStars actively works to reduce the risk of PokerStars players being harmed. This includes, but is not limited to:

    1. Increasing player awareness of the risks of this sort of fraud. This includes providing brochures at EPT events on practicing good computer security, and providing advice to players who contact us.
    2. Reviewing suspicious activity and play that takes place on PokerStars.
    3. Investigating every case of alleged fraud of this sort. Indeed, to our knowledge, PokerStars is the only online poker operator to have detected and provided refunds to players who were victims of such activity in the past.
    4. Compiling a significant dossier to identify likely suspects and providing this information to law enforcement agencies.


    I hope this helps to address the concerns expressed here and gives greater clarity as to what we have done, why we have done it and why we can’t disclose much of what we believe.

    Best regards,

    Lee Jones

    PokerStars Head of Poker Communications

     
    Comments
      
      Rollo Tomasi: Paul Leggett school of management rep

  11. #31
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
    Reputation
    10110
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    54,626
    Blog Entries
    2
    Load Metric
    65670988
    I'll break this down piece by piece.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Jones View Post
    Why PokerStars said twice that local Spanish police were involved, when they were not

    One of the key issues in this thread is why PokerStars said publicly (on 2+2) and privately (in conversation with Jens) that the Spanish police had been notified during EPT Barcelona. We said those things because, at the time, we thought that they were true.

    As Jens has said in his posts on here, there was a meeting involving him; another player; our Director of Live Events; and our Live Events Security Manager. During that meeting, Jens advised our staff that he wanted the police to be called. As he will recall, our Live Events Security Manager left that meeting to make this happen. The manager went directly to the hotel staff and asked them to call the police.

    Our Live Events Security Manager understood clearly from the hotel’s representative that the hotel would then contact the police. Indeed, our Live Events Security Manager reported this back to Jens in Barcelona, specifically referring to a special division of the Spanish national police. Confident that the police had been called, the Security Manager also reported this to other senior PokerStars management, including myself, who posted this news in the thread.

    We later discovered that the hotel did not contact the police as requested. We do not know why the hotel did not do so but we deeply regret our failure at the time to follow through and ensure that it did. This was a mistake, and we will work hard to avoid similar mistakes in the future. When we discovered it, we directly notified Jens.
    This is indicative of either a cover-up or gross incompetence.

    Anyone with half a brain should have realized that the hotel was likely covering this up, given their ever-changing stories and claims of mysteriously malfunctioning cameras. For Pokerstars to claim that they trusted the hotel to call the authorities (and never follow up) is laughable.

    Furthermore, Lee does not explain why they never questioned the hotel's failure to call the police. His only statement about the matter is, "We do not know why the hotel did not do so but we deeply regret our failure at the time to follow through and ensure that it did."

    So after realizing that the hotel never called the police (which they came to understand months ago), they never bothered to ask the hotel what happened? That seems unlikely, especially given how much business Pokerstars has steered their way, and how much influence they obviously have.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Jones
    PokerStars’ liability and responsibility in these kinds of situations

    As our players and many members of the 2+2 community can attest, PokerStars exercises deep and wide authority on all matters related to play on our sites and within the confines of the tournament floor during our Live Events. Outside these environments our responsibility and jurisdiction is much more limited.

    When these worlds collide, there’s even more complexity. For instance, under various European data protection laws, it is illegal for us to publicly identify the names or User IDs of people who are alleged to have breached our Terms of Service.

    We have previously obtained legal advice on this very issue and our lawyers advised us that we cannot publicly disclose names or other personally-identifying information in the context of fraud on PokerStars (or elsewhere).

    At the same time, we are under no legal obligation to report suspected fraud to outside authorities. In this case, however, not only did we report activity that we believed might be related to the incident involving Jens, but – as Jens related – one of our security officers spent two weeks compiling an extensive report and evidence to provide to the appropriate authorities.

    As it relates to publicly disclosing our efforts in this case, as a general rule, PokerStars does not publicly comment where we do not have anything substantially new to contribute. We have previously commented publicly that we have supported the relevant law enforcement agencies in their investigation of the issues. PokerStars is not a law enforcement agency, and does not have the power to arrest or prosecute individuals who are suspected of criminal activities. Thus, throughout this period, we have compiled information and reported it to our local law enforcement authorities (the Isle of Man Police) as they have a specific unit which deals with international sharing of such information. Furthermore, they are the appropriate authorities for us to contact and inform.

    We have received written confirmation that IOMP has received our report and has referred it on to police authorities in other relevant jurisdictions. PokerStars is very keen that matters be formally investigated by the appropriate police force(s); however, clearly we cannot influence any police investigation decisions anywhere and can do no more than offer full and continuing support to any formal investigation.
    It is still not clear why the Isle of Man Police (IOMP) is involved, given that the crime did not occur in Isle of Man, nor is Jens a citizen from there. Remember, this crime was against Jens, not Pokerstars. Lee will not explain why they are only going to their own local police, instead of the police where it occurred.

    Furthermore, it is really crappy that Lee is hiding behind the "what we're legally required to do" excuse, rather than what is right and proper for protecting their own customers. This is especially true because Pokerstars WORSENED the situation by initially taking the hotel's side and promising Jens that they were taking care of the matter. If Pokerstars never got involved, Jens wouldn't have left Barcelona with the false belief that it was being handled, and would have handled it himself. Stars can't just throw up their hands at this point and say, "We don't have to get involved!" They already did get involved, hindered the investigation, and now are claiming they were doing him a favor by their involvement in the first place.



    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Jones
    Allegations of PokerStars staff involvement in fraud against players

    We understand that the failures to contact Spanish police have caused some players to speculate that PokerStars, or some of its staff, must have a motive for doing so. It has even been speculated that PokerStars staff might have been involved in what happened to Jens at EPT Barcelona. PokerStars deeply regrets this inference. Within a few hours of even the first suggestion on 2+2 that there might be involvement of PokerStars staff in inappropriate behavior, our Director of Internal Audit and Security was made aware of the situation, and has continued to monitor the issue. We are aware of no evidence that suggests any involvement by PokerStars staff in this allegedly criminal behavior but if any is presented we will investigate it.
    I agree that it's likely nobody at Pokerstars was in on this. However, they were definitely complicit in covering it up, likely to preserve their ability to continue holding their precious EPT in Barcelona in future years. Furthermore, it is still not out of the realm of belief that someone at Pokerstars was indeed involved. Let's say for argument's sake that a Pokerstars employee WAS involved in these laptop tamperings. Would Pokerstars ever admit it, unless it was already proven beyond a shadow of a doubt?

    No.

    How would they act if one of their employees were involved (but nobody knew yet)?

    Exactly like this -- really sketchy, contradictory, and attempting to cover up as much as possible.

    They're obviously covering up something here. They are protecting either one of their own, or more likely, the reputation of the Barcelona Arts so they can repeat this event next year.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Jones
    What PokerStars is doing to reduce the risk of this happening again in the future

    PokerStars recognizes that high stakes poker players (like any other group of people making significant financial transactions on the Internet) are attractive targets for fraudsters. While players are responsible for their own personal security and personal computer security, PokerStars actively works to reduce the risk of PokerStars players being harmed. This includes, but is not limited to:

    1. Increasing player awareness of the risks of this sort of fraud. This includes providing brochures at EPT events on practicing good computer security, and providing advice to players who contact us.
    2. Reviewing suspicious activity and play that takes place on PokerStars.
    3. Investigating every case of alleged fraud of this sort. Indeed, to our knowledge, PokerStars is the only online poker operator to have detected and provided refunds to players who were victims of such activity in the past.
    4. Compiling a significant dossier to identify likely suspects and providing this information to law enforcement agencies.
    This is all garbage.

    Increase player awareness? Brochures? Investigate fraud on their site?

    None of this will prevent a repeat of the same at the Barcelona Arts, unless they really believe every single player will bring a bulky "laptop lock-up case" that allows them to physically secure it. This will never happen, regardless of how many brochures (LOL) they print.

    And they're promising to investigate fraud on their site? They do that anyway.

    The final promise to "compile a significant dossier to identify likely suspects and provide this information to law enforcement" is a lie. They already had the chance to do this. They were not interested in catching the actual suspects, and they only contacted a law enforcement agency (Isle of Man) with zero jurisdiction over the matter. Even worse, they lied to Jens that they had contacted the Barcelona police, and still cannot fully explain the whole matter. Blaming it on the hotel (but not explaining why they didn't follow this up once it was proven the hotel didn't contact police) is a joke.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Jones
    I hope this helps to address the concerns expressed here and gives greater clarity as to what we have done, why we have done it and why we can’t disclose much of what we believe.

    Best regards,

    Lee Jones

    PokerStars Head of Poker Communications
    This gives no clarity.

    LOL @ "why we can't disclose what we believe". Typical corrupt corporate cover-up bullshit of, "We know what happened, but we can't tell anyone for legal reasons, and we can't detail exactly what we reported to the police. But trust us... we reported it!"

    Notice that sadly absent from the entire above diatribe is any statement that Pokerstars will discontinue association with the Barcelona Arts. Their silence on that matter speaks volumes, and also pretty much reveals all or most of the motivation for lying to Jens and sweeping this mess under the rug.

    Also missing are any explanations as to why they told Chuck Bass that Jens left Barcelona too early to complete any kind of real investigation, when in reality it was Stars telling Jens to go home and that they would handle it. Stars has been threatening Chuck Bass with NDA agreement violations for revealing this!

    Disgusting. I really hope they never get licensed in the US.

  12. #32
    Poker Investigative Journalist
    Reputation
    70
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    341
    Load Metric
    65670988
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    I'll break this down piece by piece.



    This is indicative of either a cover-up or gross incompetence.

    Anyone with half a brain should have realized that the hotel was likely covering this up, given their ever-changing stories and claims of mysteriously malfunctioning cameras. For Pokerstars to claim that they trusted the hotel to call the authorities (and never follow up) is laughable.

    Furthermore, Lee does not explain why they never questioned the hotel's failure to call the police. His only statement about the matter is, "We do not know why the hotel did not do so but we deeply regret our failure at the time to follow through and ensure that it did."

    So after realizing that the hotel never called the police (which they came to understand months ago), they never bothered to ask the hotel what happened? That seems unlikely, especially given how much business Pokerstars has steered their way, and how much influence they obviously have.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Jones
    PokerStars’ liability and responsibility in these kinds of situations

    As our players and many members of the 2+2 community can attest, PokerStars exercises deep and wide authority on all matters related to play on our sites and within the confines of the tournament floor during our Live Events. Outside these environments our responsibility and jurisdiction is much more limited.

    When these worlds collide, there’s even more complexity. For instance, under various European data protection laws, it is illegal for us to publicly identify the names or User IDs of people who are alleged to have breached our Terms of Service.

    We have previously obtained legal advice on this very issue and our lawyers advised us that we cannot publicly disclose names or other personally-identifying information in the context of fraud on PokerStars (or elsewhere).

    At the same time, we are under no legal obligation to report suspected fraud to outside authorities. In this case, however, not only did we report activity that we believed might be related to the incident involving Jens, but – as Jens related – one of our security officers spent two weeks compiling an extensive report and evidence to provide to the appropriate authorities.

    As it relates to publicly disclosing our efforts in this case, as a general rule, PokerStars does not publicly comment where we do not have anything substantially new to contribute. We have previously commented publicly that we have supported the relevant law enforcement agencies in their investigation of the issues. PokerStars is not a law enforcement agency, and does not have the power to arrest or prosecute individuals who are suspected of criminal activities. Thus, throughout this period, we have compiled information and reported it to our local law enforcement authorities (the Isle of Man Police) as they have a specific unit which deals with international sharing of such information. Furthermore, they are the appropriate authorities for us to contact and inform.

    We have received written confirmation that IOMP has received our report and has referred it on to police authorities in other relevant jurisdictions. PokerStars is very keen that matters be formally investigated by the appropriate police force(s); however, clearly we cannot influence any police investigation decisions anywhere and can do no more than offer full and continuing support to any formal investigation.
    It is still not clear why the Isle of Man Police (IOMP) is involved, given that the crime did not occur in Isle of Man, nor is Jens a citizen from there. Remember, this crime was against Jens, not Pokerstars. Lee will not explain why they are only going to their own local police, instead of the police where it occurred.

    Furthermore, it is really crappy that Lee is hiding behind the "what we're legally required to do" excuse, rather than what is right and proper for protecting their own customers. This is especially true because Pokerstars WORSENED the situation by initially taking the hotel's side and promising Jens that they were taking care of the matter. If Pokerstars never got involved, Jens wouldn't have left Barcelona with the false belief that it was being handled, and would have handled it himself. Stars can't just throw up their hands at this point and say, "We don't have to get involved!" They already did get involved, hindered the investigation, and now are claiming they were doing him a favor by their involvement in the first place.



    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Jones
    Allegations of PokerStars staff involvement in fraud against players

    We understand that the failures to contact Spanish police have caused some players to speculate that PokerStars, or some of its staff, must have a motive for doing so. It has even been speculated that PokerStars staff might have been involved in what happened to Jens at EPT Barcelona. PokerStars deeply regrets this inference. Within a few hours of even the first suggestion on 2+2 that there might be involvement of PokerStars staff in inappropriate behavior, our Director of Internal Audit and Security was made aware of the situation, and has continued to monitor the issue. We are aware of no evidence that suggests any involvement by PokerStars staff in this allegedly criminal behavior but if any is presented we will investigate it.
    I agree that it's likely nobody at Pokerstars was in on this. However, they were definitely complicit in covering it up, likely to preserve their ability to continue holding their precious EPT in Barcelona in future years. Furthermore, it is still not out of the realm of belief that someone at Pokerstars was indeed involved. Let's say for argument's sake that a Pokerstars employee WAS involved in these laptop tamperings. Would Pokerstars ever admit it, unless it was already proven beyond a shadow of a doubt?

    No.

    How would they act if one of their employees were involved (but nobody knew yet)?

    Exactly like this -- really sketchy, contradictory, and attempting to cover up as much as possible.

    They're obviously covering up something here. They are protecting either one of their own, or more likely, the reputation of the Barcelona Arts so they can repeat this event next year.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Jones
    What PokerStars is doing to reduce the risk of this happening again in the future

    PokerStars recognizes that high stakes poker players (like any other group of people making significant financial transactions on the Internet) are attractive targets for fraudsters. While players are responsible for their own personal security and personal computer security, PokerStars actively works to reduce the risk of PokerStars players being harmed. This includes, but is not limited to:

    1. Increasing player awareness of the risks of this sort of fraud. This includes providing brochures at EPT events on practicing good computer security, and providing advice to players who contact us.
    2. Reviewing suspicious activity and play that takes place on PokerStars.
    3. Investigating every case of alleged fraud of this sort. Indeed, to our knowledge, PokerStars is the only online poker operator to have detected and provided refunds to players who were victims of such activity in the past.
    4. Compiling a significant dossier to identify likely suspects and providing this information to law enforcement agencies.
    This is all garbage.

    Increase player awareness? Brochures? Investigate fraud on their site?

    None of this will prevent a repeat of the same at the Barcelona Arts, unless they really believe every single player will bring a bulky "laptop lock-up case" that allows them to physically secure it. This will never happen, regardless of how many brochures (LOL) they print.

    And they're promising to investigate fraud on their site? They do that anyway.

    The final promise to "compile a significant dossier to identify likely suspects and provide this information to law enforcement" is a lie. They already had the chance to do this. They were not interested in catching the actual suspects, and they only contacted a law enforcement agency (Isle of Man) with zero jurisdiction over the matter. Even worse, they lied to Jens that they had contacted the Barcelona police, and still cannot fully explain the whole matter. Blaming it on the hotel (but not explaining why they didn't follow this up once it was proven the hotel didn't contact police) is a joke.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Jones
    I hope this helps to address the concerns expressed here and gives greater clarity as to what we have done, why we have done it and why we can’t disclose much of what we believe.

    Best regards,

    Lee Jones

    PokerStars Head of Poker Communications
    This gives no clarity.

    LOL @ "why we can't disclose what we believe". Typical corrupt corporate cover-up bullshit of, "We know what happened, but we can't tell anyone for legal reasons, and we can't detail exactly what we reported to the police. But trust us... we reported it!"

    Notice that sadly absent from the entire above diatribe is any statement that Pokerstars will discontinue association with the Barcelona Arts. Their silence on that matter speaks volumes, and also pretty much reveals all or most of the motivation for lying to Jens and sweeping this mess under the rug.

    Also missing are any explanations as to why they told Chuck Bass that Jens left Barcelona too early to complete any kind of real investigation, when in reality it was Stars telling Jens to go home and that they would handle it. Stars has been threatening Chuck Bass with NDA agreement violations for revealing this!

    Disgusting. I really hope they never get licensed in the US.
    NDA violations are among the most cartooney of all legal threats -- often threatened, rarely filed, virtually never successfully litigated. NDA claims surrounding the circumstances of any crime, civil or criminal, are almost universally declared moot throughout the world. Were I Chuck, I wouldn't be too worried.

  13. #33
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
    Reputation
    10110
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    54,626
    Blog Entries
    2
    Load Metric
    65670988
    Quote Originally Posted by haleylh View Post
    NDA violations are among the most cartooney of all legal threats -- often threatened, rarely filed, virtually never successfully litigated. NDA claims surrounding the circumstances of any crime, civil or criminal, are almost universally declared moot throughout the world. Were I Chuck, I wouldn't be too worried.
    Agree. I thought the same thing.

    Very tough to file a lawsuit across international borders, anyway.

    There's no way Stars would sue him for an NDA violation and shine a spotlight upon what he was revealing.

  14. #34
    Poker Investigative Journalist
    Reputation
    70
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    341
    Load Metric
    65670988
    I detest how Stars is referring to the person who may be responsible for some of the bungling and bad-faith practices by title only -- "live events security manager". I can't say it with surety, but this might be the guy:

    http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/p-k-finni...dip/19/a87/739

    P K Finnie S.A.C, Dip's Overview

    Current
    Security Manager Live events worldwide. at Poker stars.com
    Past
    DIRECTOR of SURVEILLANCE at Sheraton Cairo, Towers & Casino
    Security and Surveillance manager at Genting casinos
    C.S.O at Gala Casinos


    He also worked for seven years at Crockfords, which one might remember as the casino involved in Phil Ivey's withheld punto banco win case.

    Sounds to me like exactly the type of person who would work with the hotel to help sweep untoward happenings under the rug. I'd prefer more info and some independent verification, but if this is indeed the guy, I am not inclined to believe that Jens would get anything close to a fair shake in this matter.

    Edit: The S.A.C., Dip crap seems to be "Stonebridge Associated Colleges Diploma." Which I guess is the UK version of Phoenix University.
    Last edited by haleylh; 12-15-2013 at 01:08 PM.

  15. #35
    NoFraud Poker Room Manager Belly Buster's Avatar
    Reputation
    1346
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    England
    Posts
    3,626
    Load Metric
    65670988
    Quote Originally Posted by haleylh View Post

    Edit: The S.A.C., Dip crap seems to be "Stonebridge Associated Colleges Diploma." Which I guess is the UK version of Phoenix University.
    "Stonebridge Associated Colleges" (had to google it) is just about the lowest rent correspondence qualification you can get. Any qualification is worth slightly less than the paper it is printed on. Certainly not worth shouting about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    BTW JACKDANIELS is the first one banned from the thread. He is accusing me of being "duped by a middle aged man who dresses like John Cena"
    #FREEJACK #NEVERFORGET

    NoFraud Online Poker Room: http://nofraud.pokerfraudalert.com:8087. For password resets and reload requests PM me.

  16. #36
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
    Reputation
    10110
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    54,626
    Blog Entries
    2
    Load Metric
    65670988
    Anyone still defending Pokerstars or saying "They've done all they could", needs to answer this: Why does it appear that Pokerstars will be returning to the Barcelona Arts in 2014, given what happened this year? Their actions clearly indicate a cover-up in order to facilitate a repeat of the event there next year.

    Anyway, if you read between the lines in Lee Jones' statement, here's what he's trying to say:

    "We have analyzed cheating reports on our own system, and have identified likely culprits for this, because Jens isn't the first victim. Since these incidents occurred on our system, based in Isle of Man, we reported them to the Isle of Man Police, who then determined the proper jurisdiction to refer them for investigation/prosecution. Unfortunately, those jurisdictions don't seem interested in investigating, so we're stuck. We cannot name the suspects because of European law preventing us from doing so. Sorry."


    The above is NOT a quote from Lee Jones or anyone at Stars, but it's basically what he was trying to say without directly saying it. Reread his last statement (as well as his messages to Jens), and that's what he's trying to get across.

    This actually sounds reasonable at first glance, but there are some massive problems with it.

    First, it does not address the Pokerstars Live Security Manager's obvious complicity in covering up the situation at the Barcelona Arts. It does not explain why it was falsely reported TWICE to Lee that the police were called, when in fact they were not. It does not explain why Pokerstars is not distressed that the Arts lied about calling the police twice, and that they repeatedly contradicted themselves when dealing with Jens.

    Basically, Lee's response completely ignores everything that happened to Jens at the Barcelona Arts, and more focuses upon Pokerstars' own internal investigation to figure out if the culprits in his crime have victimized others on Pokerstars in the past.

    While that's an important thing to determine, it's also extremely self-serving on Pokerstars' end (they would be making a big mistake NOT to investigate high limit cheating on their site), and shows that they have zero interest in what occurred at the Arts -- only how it related to risk against their own business.

    So, to summarize, here is what I think really happened:

    - Stars is covering this up, so they can return to the Arts next year for the EPT. Perhaps they have a multi-year contract. Perhaps they don't think any other hotel would be suitable for an EPT in Barcelona. Perhaps they just don't want to put the effort and expense into finding a new venue. Regardless, Pokerstars has acted the whole time in a manner to where they really just want this to go away and appear as if it never happened. They clearly do NOT want to pull out of the Arts in 2014.

    - Stars does not give a shit what happened to Jens or anyone else at the Arts, other than being concerned about the image of the EPT Barcelona and perhaps this being indicative of other high-limit holecard-view cheating on their site.

    - Stars' solution was two-pronged: First, stonewall Jens as much as possible, hinder any investigation, and assist the Arts in worming out of this one. Second, spend time investigating any possible cheating at Pokerstars high limits at the moment, suspend suspected accounts, and report those crimes to law enforcement. And when I say "those crimes", I am referring to suspected cheating on Stars itself, NOT the hotel room break-ins where the same was attempted but failed due to being detected.

    I would be surprised if the truth is very far from the above.

  17. #37
    Poker Investigative Journalist
    Reputation
    70
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    341
    Load Metric
    65670988
    A source I've talked to says it wasn't Finnie, so despite the S.A.C. Dip humor, it's the wrong guy.

  18. #38
    Gold Charham's Avatar
    Reputation
    113
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,066
    Load Metric
    65670988
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Anyone still defending Pokerstars or saying "They've done all they could", needs to answer this: Why does it appear that Pokerstars will be returning to the Barcelona Arts in 2014, given what happened this year? Their actions clearly indicate a cover-up in order to facilitate a repeat of the event there next year.

    Anyway, if you read between the lines in Lee Jones' statement, here's what he's trying to say:

    "We have analyzed cheating reports on our own system, and have identified likely culprits for this, because Jens isn't the first victim. Since these incidents occurred on our system, based in Isle of Man, we reported them to the Isle of Man Police, who then determined the proper jurisdiction to refer them for investigation/prosecution. Unfortunately, those jurisdictions don't seem interested in investigating, so we're stuck. We cannot name the suspects because of European law preventing us from doing so. Sorry."


    The above is NOT a quote from Lee Jones or anyone at Stars, but it's basically what he was trying to say without directly saying it. Reread his last statement (as well as his messages to Jens), and that's what he's trying to get across.

    This actually sounds reasonable at first glance, but there are some massive problems with it.

    First, it does not address the Pokerstars Live Security Manager's obvious complicity in covering up the situation at the Barcelona Arts. It does not explain why it was falsely reported TWICE to Lee that the police were called, when in fact they were not. It does not explain why Pokerstars is not distressed that the Arts lied about calling the police twice, and that they repeatedly contradicted themselves when dealing with Jens.

    Basically, Lee's response completely ignores everything that happened to Jens at the Barcelona Arts, and more focuses upon Pokerstars' own internal investigation to figure out if the culprits in his crime have victimized others on Pokerstars in the past.

    While that's an important thing to determine, it's also extremely self-serving on Pokerstars' end (they would be making a big mistake NOT to investigate high limit cheating on their site), and shows that they have zero interest in what occurred at the Arts -- only how it related to risk against their own business.

    So, to summarize, here is what I think really happened:

    - Stars is covering this up, so they can return to the Arts next year for the EPT. Perhaps they have a multi-year contract. Perhaps they don't think any other hotel would be suitable for an EPT in Barcelona. Perhaps they just don't want to put the effort and expense into finding a new venue. Regardless, Pokerstars has acted the whole time in a manner to where they really just want this to go away and appear as if it never happened. They clearly do NOT want to pull out of the Arts in 2014.

    - Stars does not give a shit what happened to Jens or anyone else at the Arts, other than being concerned about the image of the EPT Barcelona and perhaps this being indicative of other high-limit holecard-view cheating on their site.

    - Stars' solution was two-pronged: First, stonewall Jens as much as possible, hinder any investigation, and assist the Arts in worming out of this one. Second, spend time investigating any possible cheating at Pokerstars high limits at the moment, suspend suspected accounts, and report those crimes to law enforcement. And when I say "those crimes", I am referring to suspected cheating on Stars itself, NOT the hotel room break-ins where the same was attempted but failed due to being detected.

    I would be surprised if the truth is very far from the above.
    This business about reporting it to the Isle of Man is of course ridiculous. If an armed gunman stormed the hotel and robbed the cashier at the tournament nobody is calling the Isle of Man police. the Isle of Man is an offshore tax haven, otherwise covered with sheep, hardly the Interpol of Europe. The claim that the Isle of Man has the authority or the resources to do anything about this is absurd. If poker stars wanted to do something about this they would have got a local detective involved, pulled the tapes, etc.

  19. #39
    Poker Investigative Journalist
    Reputation
    70
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    341
    Load Metric
    65670988
    Quote Originally Posted by Charham View Post
    This business about reporting it to the Isle of Man is of course ridiculous. If an armed gunman stormed the hotel and robbed the cashier at the tournament nobody is calling the Isle of Man police. the Isle of Man is an offshore tax haven, otherwise covered with sheep, hardly the Interpol of Europe. The claim that the Isle of Man has the authority or the resources to do anything about this is absurd. If poker stars wanted to do something about this they would have got a local detective involved, pulled the tapes, etc.
    The Isle of Man will have you know their sheep detectives are renowned from Liverpool to Belfast. No pulling the wool over their eyes, indeed.

  20. #40
    Bronze
    Reputation
    14
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Manassas, VA
    Posts
    63
    Load Metric
    65670988
    Jeans just posted recently in the 2+2 thread that the stars has confirmed the suspects are from Sweden. Some speculation going on by others in regards to the obvious Samer Rahman. Just sharing the update. Only real confirmation is what Jeans wrote.

    http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=1127

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 09-03-2019, 09:26 AM
  2. WCGRider (from 2+2) gets hacked - Pokerstars steps up
    By varys in forum Flying Stupidity
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-06-2013, 10:30 AM
  3. Tine Is This True? - Youtube Hacked?
    By WillieMcFML in forum Flying Stupidity
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 11-03-2012, 06:11 AM
  4. LinkedIn Hacked?
    By Vwls in forum Flying Stupidity
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-06-2012, 12:34 PM
  5. lol...2+2 hacked it seems
    By RichardBrodiesCombover. in forum Flying Stupidity
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 04-26-2012, 12:33 PM