Caesar's raises video poker tier-earning requirement by 150%

[Dan Druff]

Caesars properties have long given you one tier credit per $10 of coin-in at video poker.

Even their own website says that's still the case:

Earn 1 Tier Credit for every $5.00 you play on a reel slot machine. Earn 1 Tier Credit for every $10.00 you play on a video poker machine.

https://www.totalrewards.com/TotalRe...age=trBenefits

For those of you that don't know, you need 150,000 tier credits in a calendar year in order to earn Caesar's highest status -- Seven Stars. However, you can earn 5000 bonus tier credits in a day if you earn at least 2500 regular tier credits during the "gambling day" (usually 6:00am to 5:59am the next day). This means that you could earn Seven Stars by playing 20 days worth of 2500 tier credits ($25,000 coin-in) per day. Doing the math, it means you can earn Seven Stars by running $500,000 worth of coin-in through video poker, which sounds like a lot, but really isn't because of video poker's high expected return for perfect play.

... But that's no longer true in Las Vegas.

Reports have emerged that you now need $25 of play for one tier credit at video poker -- meaning you will have to play 2.5x as much ($62,500 coin-in) to earn 2500 tier credits. Ouch.

This is clearly being done to combat the "Seven Stars grinders" -- the ones who play exactly 2500 tiers (to get the bonus 5000) and quit, and who play the highest-return VP machines, in order to earn the valuable Seven Stars level without a lot of cost.

Keep in mind that Seven Stars was originally designed for those with expected losses in the six figures per year, but the video poker people (myself included) have sidestepped that.

I don't blame Caesars for doing this, but I do think it's a bit scummy to do in the middle of the year, thus penalizing those who were on their way (but not all that near) to reaching Seven Stars.

I am hearing rumblings that certain casinos have NOT yet adopted that $25/tier credit thing.

So here are my questions:

1) Are ALL Vegas properties now $25/tier credit for VP?

2) Has this been changed in Reno and Tahoe yet?

3) Has this been changed in Laughlin yet?

4) Has this been changed at the Rincon yet?

If indeed it has changed completely, I will abandon my quest to renew my Seven Stars and just stick with "High Diamond" for 2014.

[BeerAndPoker]

I think the community needs Allen Kessler's opinion on this one.

[JSTAT]

Has this been changed in Reno and Tahoe yet?

I just came back from Lake Tahoe and as of yesterday, Harveys and Harrah's has not raised the Tier Credit requirement from $10 to $25 for a Tier point. I checked both high limit rooms since the trend to water down Tier Credits are at $5 VP and up. Caesars Palace initially raised the point requirements by placing the changes in plain view on the video poker machines. Here are the Caesars Palace video poker changes on vpFREE reported last month http://www.vpfree2.com/casino/caesars-palace-las-vegas. I think the Rio and Paris also followed suit. Won't be surprised if the Evil Empire raises the Tier Credit level at all their casino properties soon.

[PLOL]

The Total Rewards website still says $10

[Dan Druff]

Has this been changed in Reno and Tahoe yet?

I just came back from Lake Tahoe and as of yesterday, Harveys and Harrah's has not raised the Tier Credit requirement from $10 to $25 for a Tier point. I checked both high limit rooms since the trend to water down Tier Credits are at $5 VP and up. Caesars Palace initially raised the point requirements by placing the changes in plain view on the video poker machines. I think the Rio and Paris also followed suit. Won't be surprised if the Evil Empire raises the Tier Credit level at all their casino properties soon.

Thanks for this info.

Unfortunately, Tahoe is pretty far from me, so I really hate having to go there just for a pedestrian 99.54% Jacks-Or-Better game with no promos.

Would like to hear from people (or third-party reports found elsewhere) that visited Laughlin or Rincon (northern San Diego). Of course, neither of those places have very good video poker.

[Dan Druff]

But yeah, I was told that this was only happening at the upper limit (and likely better payout) games, so they were probably saying to themselves, "We'll leave it at $10 for the casual chump, but those high limit grinders aren't gonna hit Seven Stars this way unless they play a shitload of hands."

[phantom]

How much is seven stars worth in $ value per year?

[Dan Druff]

How much is seven stars worth in $ value per year?

http://pokerfraudalert.com/forum/sho...l=1#post131955

[Sandwich]

Does anyone know about video poker tier-earning at the Caesars Atlantic City properties (Caesars, Harrah's, Bally's and Showboat)?
I've never tried, but have been considering taking a run at Diamond status before the end of the calendar year via 9/6 Jacks or Better machines.

So according to the website, Diamond requires 15,000 tier points. At $10 coin-in per point, I'm looking at having to run through $150,000 coin-in? Sounds like a lot of play at $1.25 $2.50, $5 or even $25 per spin.

How many hours of play am I looking at here? What type of bankroll would I need to devote to this? And what does my range of variance look like? (95%, 2 standard deviations?)

Anyone here know how to do that math?

[shortbuspoker]

Does anyone know about video poker tier-earning at the Caesars Atlantic City properties (Caesars, Harrah's, Bally's and Showboat)?
I've never tried, but have been considering taking a run at Diamond status before the end of the calendar year via 9/6 Jacks or Better machines.

So according to the website, Diamond requires 15,000 tier points. At $10 coin-in per point, I'm looking at having to run through $150,000 coin-in? Sounds like a lot of play at $1.25 $2.50, $5 or even $25 per spin.

How many hours of play am I looking at here? What type of bankroll would I need to devote to this? And what does my range of variance look like? (95%, 2 standard deviations?)

Anyone here know how to do that math?

Once you get up to speed, I would think that 500 hands an hour(I have read that professional video poker grinders can average 800 to 1000 per hour) is an attainable level. On a $1 point/ $5 per hand machine you would be running through $2500 an hour. That would equate to roughly 60 hours of play assuming you don't run across a double points promotion along the way. I will leave the variance and bankroll aspects to those smarter than myself.

[TheXFactor]

FUCK, CAESARS!

If you're up over $100K in a year, they will probably ban you for life from playing at any of their properties.

Like this guy who screwed them for over $4 million.
Don Johnson shows how to beat the house (and get banned) in a few million easy steps
http://m.lvsun.com/blogs/kats-report...get-banned-fe/

[Dan Druff]

FUCK, CAESARS!

If you're up over $100K in a year, they will probably ban you for life from playing at any of their properties.

Like this guy who screwed them for over $4 million.
Don Johnson shows how to beat the house (and get banned) in a few million easy steps
http://m.lvsun.com/blogs/kats-report...get-banned-fe/

Don Johnson is a fraud.

I mean, yes, he does play super high stakes blackjack, and yes, he walks away with a gigantic win every so often, just as any whale would.

He does not count cards and is a -EV player. I guarantee he is down huge lifetime, but he is so rich that he doesn't give a shit -- even to the point of handing out $5,000 chips as tips.

A player like that can get lucky and beat the casino if he only plays a few times, but given Johnson's regularity of play, there is zero chance he's up at this point.

Caesar's likely banned him because they simply did not want the variance of a player like that. Some casinos prefer the slow, steady, predictable income stream, and don't want to be damaged by a megawhale like this. I realize that Caesar's allowed that Asian guy from Oriental Trading Company to lose like $400 million, but he was constantly drunk and hopped up on pills, so I'm guessing he played so terribly that they couldn't pass up such an edge.

I presume that Don Johnson is a basic strategy player, meaning that he is a loser, but he is more likely to go for longer periods of time without losing, so Caesar's doesn't want to take that chance.

[Dan Druff]

Does anyone know about video poker tier-earning at the Caesars Atlantic City properties (Caesars, Harrah's, Bally's and Showboat)?
I've never tried, but have been considering taking a run at Diamond status before the end of the calendar year via 9/6 Jacks or Better machines.

So according to the website, Diamond requires 15,000 tier points. At $10 coin-in per point, I'm looking at having to run through $150,000 coin-in? Sounds like a lot of play at $1.25 $2.50, $5 or even $25 per spin.

How many hours of play am I looking at here? What type of bankroll would I need to devote to this? And what does my range of variance look like? (95%, 2 standard deviations?)

Anyone here know how to do that math?

No, 15k tier points isn't that hard to achieve, because you can do so by earning 2500 in a day twice, and getting 5000 tiers bonus twice.

So you're looking at $50,000 coin in spread over two days (don't have to be consecutive days).

The key is that you have to make 2500 tier points in a "Caesar's day" (usually from 6:00am to 5:59am, but sometimes 4:00am to 3:59am, so check with the casino first). Once you do that, you get 5000 bonus tiers. Do not quit before 2500, or it will start over and you will be tripling the required play needed!

If you are playing $5 video poker ($25 per hand), you can earn 2500 tier credits in about 2-3 hours. This is because you are earning 2.5 tier credits per hand, so you only need to run 1000 hands. If you can play one hand every 7.2 seconds, it will take two hours. If you play one hand every 15 seconds, it will take slightly more than four hours.

If you have more time to play, and want to reduce variance, you can play the $1 video poker. This will require 5000 hands. If you can play one hand every 7.2 seconds, it will take 10 hours. If you can't play faster than that (or don't have 10 hours to spend on this in a day), I wouldn't suggest playing $1 video poker.

I have not done the math regarding the variance and the standard deviations at $5 video poker, but it is very easy to lose $3000 while earning 2500 tier credits, and losing $6000 is not unheard of. You are not likely to do much worse than that. I'm sure someone has already run the numbers on a video poker website. Make sure to stick to 9-6 Jacks or Better, and make sure to either memorize perfect strategy or have a printout of the proper strategy (which can fit on 1 or 2 pages). 8-5 Bonus Poker can also be used for this, but the edge for the house is greater (though the variance is actually a little less, because you are less dependent upon hitting Royals.)

BTW you will hit a Royal once in 40,388 times on average 9-6 Jacks or Better.

This means that your chance of hitting a Royal after 2000 hands is around 5%. This means you will most likely lose, as you need to hit a Royal to counteract the otherwise tough odds against you for the other payouts.

Also keep in mind that "Low Diamond" may not be worth much. While not very publicized, Caesar's started separating its Diamonds from "Low Diamond" to "High Diamond" (though your card will just say "Diamond"), and being a Low Diamond will come with fewer benefits and worse offers.

[gauchojake]

FUCK, CAESARS!

If you're up over $100K in a year, they will probably ban you for life from playing at any of their properties.

Like this guy who screwed them for over $4 million.
Don Johnson shows how to beat the house (and get banned) in a few million easy steps
http://m.lvsun.com/blogs/kats-report...get-banned-fe/

Don Johnson is a fraud.

I mean, yes, he does play super high stakes blackjack, and yes, he walks away with a gigantic win every so often, just as any whale would.

He does not count cards and is a -EV player. I guarantee he is down huge lifetime, but he is so rich that he doesn't give a shit -- even to the point of handing out $5,000 chips as tips.

A player like that can get lucky and beat the casino if he only plays a few times, but given Johnson's regularity of play, there is zero chance he's up at this point.

Caesar's likely banned him because they simply did not want the variance of a player like that. Some casinos prefer the slow, steady, predictable income stream, and don't want to be damaged by a megawhale like this. I realize that Caesar's allowed that Asian guy from Oriental Trading Company to lose like $400 million, but he was constantly drunk and hopped up on pills, so I'm guessing he played so terribly that they couldn't pass up such an edge.

I presume that Don Johnson is a basic strategy player, meaning that he is a loser, but he is more likely to go for longer periods of time without losing, so Caesar's doesn't want to take that chance.

Did you read the article? He was getting 20% back on losses in AC. Even if you suck at BJ, that's a pretty sweet deal. Who fucking thinks of these promotions?

[Dan Druff]

Don Johnson is a fraud.

I mean, yes, he does play super high stakes blackjack, and yes, he walks away with a gigantic win every so often, just as any whale would.

He does not count cards and is a -EV player. I guarantee he is down huge lifetime, but he is so rich that he doesn't give a shit -- even to the point of handing out $5,000 chips as tips.

A player like that can get lucky and beat the casino if he only plays a few times, but given Johnson's regularity of play, there is zero chance he's up at this point.

Caesar's likely banned him because they simply did not want the variance of a player like that. Some casinos prefer the slow, steady, predictable income stream, and don't want to be damaged by a megawhale like this. I realize that Caesar's allowed that Asian guy from Oriental Trading Company to lose like $400 million, but he was constantly drunk and hopped up on pills, so I'm guessing he played so terribly that they couldn't pass up such an edge.

I presume that Don Johnson is a basic strategy player, meaning that he is a loser, but he is more likely to go for longer periods of time without losing, so Caesar's doesn't want to take that chance.

Did you read the article? He was getting 20% back on losses in AC. Even if you suck at BJ, that's a pretty sweet deal. Who fucking thinks of these promotions?

Not as sweet as you think. If the player is there long enough, they will almost always lose.

Since the 20% is returned only on losses (and presumably requires a minimum hand count, or otherwise you can keep playing 1-hand "sessions" and repeatedly collect 20%), it's basically the casino lowering its edge a bit when the expected return is so high anyway.

Loss rebates are only foolhardy to offer when they are high enough to where it's +EV for the player to play an otherwise negative expectation game, when the reward of running above expectation is greater than the risk of running at expectation (once the player gets his money back).

Let's take an extreme example.

Say a casino is giving me 99% back on all blackjack losses after 1000 hands, but the one catch is that I have to play basic strategy and not count cards. I would snap-accept this deal, as I would run unusually hot enough times after 1000 hands to have shown a nice profit, to where it is worth losing 1% of my otherwise normal losses the rest of the time. Even with this amazing deal, I would lose more often than I would win, but the winning sessions would be big, and the losing sessions very small. So it would be worth it.

However, if the 99% back was after a billion hands, I would not accept it, even if I could write a computer program to play perfect basic strategy, run it a billion hands, and then get 99% of my losses back. This is because there is almost zero chance (FAR, FAR less than 1%) that I could possibly come out ahead after a billion hands. So it wouldn't be worth it.

Anyway, the bottom line is that this is still a good deal for the casino, provided that the minimum hand requirement is high enough, which it probably is.

Let me assure you that it's rare that the casino makes huge boneheaded mistakes when it comes to games provided to whales.

[Sandwich]

I have not done the math regarding the variance and the standard deviations at $5 video poker, but it is very easy to lose $3000 while earning 2500 tier credits, and losing $6000 is not unheard of. You are not likely to do much worse than that.

Thanks. Considering that I could very easily lose $6k (and could lose $12k) trying to earn the 5000 tier credits which would get me the two days of bonuses... for "Low Diamond".... I'll probably pass on this. I doubt the benefits would be worth the risk. Oh well.