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Thread: Vladimir Geshkenbein finishes 62nd in ME and scams his backers

  1. #41
    Master of Props Daly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadyJ View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Daly View Post
    About a month later, four days prior to Day 1C of the Main (July 4), he comes forward and admits he is broke and has chunked off all of the money (both buyins and winnings). This includes both losing and paying prior debts. He says that he will be unable to afford to play the Main.



    Timing is everything here. So long as he canceled the stake BEFORE the start of the main event then he is in the clear other then the $10K refund.

    If he is playing day 4 and tries to pull this stunt off..... it's a whole different ball of wax.

    This is mindblowin to me. He didnt cancel the stake. He stole their money and lost it.

    He did cancel the stake. My understanding is he admitted to losing the money 4 days before the start of the ME and that he was going to have to refund the ME portion of the stake. He did steal the money, and he owes the backers for the ME. If he went out and busted on the first hand his backers would/should expect the ME entry money back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Daly View Post
    About a month later, four days prior to Day 1C of the Main (July 4), he comes forward and admits he is broke and has chunked off all of the money (both buyins and winnings). This includes both losing and paying prior debts. He says that he will be unable to afford to play the Main.



    Timing is everything here. So long as he canceled the stake BEFORE the start of the main event then he is in the clear other then the $10K refund.

    If he is playing day 4 and tries to pull this stunt off..... it's a whole different ball of wax.
    But how is he "in the clear" if the reason for cancellation was his own theft of the money, and his admission that he had no way to pay the people back unless someone else separately staked him, and he paid back from those proceeds?

    I feel a "cancellation" of a stake is only valid if you actually have everyone's money to refund at the time you cancelled it.

    There is no doubt here (even by his own admission) that he did not have this money.
    You can't get blood from stone. If the money is gone and he admits it the only thing you can do at that point is work something out to collect what you can from him.

    To be clear - he is not "in the clear" from getting his ass beat by someone for this. He is not "in the clear" as far as his reputation is concerned. As a backer - if you want to crucify him because he is breaking an agreement with you have a legit beef.

    What if he played and lost on hand 1. would the backers still be due money?

  3. #43
    Gold Steve-O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ShadyJ View Post


    This is mindblowin to me. He didnt cancel the stake. He stole their money and lost it.

    He did cancel the stake. My understanding is he admitted to losing the money 4 days before the start of the ME and that he was going to have to refund the ME portion of the stake. He did steal the money, and he owes the backers for the ME. If he went out and busted on the first hand his backers would/should expect the ME entry money back.
    Beyne can't cancel the stake anymore than you can cancel the lease on a car. An important point is whether all of the backers agreed to the termination of the stake before he played the Main Event, or if some people were still holding him to his former agreement. As China points out, the prudent thing to do would be to agree to cancel it and come to a new agreement on payments, but just because it's prudent doesn't mean people have to accept this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve-O View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Daly View Post


    He did cancel the stake. My understanding is he admitted to losing the money 4 days before the start of the ME and that he was going to have to refund the ME portion of the stake. He did steal the money, and he owes the backers for the ME. If he went out and busted on the first hand his backers would/should expect the ME entry money back.
    Beyne can't cancel the stake anymore than you can cancel the lease on a car. An important point is whether all of the backers agreed to the termination of the stake before he played the Main Event, or if some people were still holding him to his former agreement. As China points out, the prudent thing to do would be to agree to cancel it and come to a new agreement on payments, but just because it's prudent doesn't mean people have to accept this.
    But he did cancel the stake. He did just that. All he has to do is say I am not playing for you and thats it. I'm not saying he is right but that's what happened. Where is this rule saying both sides have to agree?

    he is the one that is supposed to be playing. All he has to do is say I am not playing for you anymore. And again I am not condoning what he did but I have seen many people quit stakes for many different reasons and his reason is he stole all the money.

    He basically told them they were fucked over

    When he says he blew the money it's over right there.

    And LOL @ any backers still wanting pieces of this guys main action after he just blew all their money

  5. #45
    Gold Steve-O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chinamaniac View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve-O View Post

    Beyne can't cancel the stake anymore than you can cancel the lease on a car. An important point is whether all of the backers agreed to the termination of the stake before he played the Main Event, or if some people were still holding him to his former agreement. As China points out, the prudent thing to do would be to agree to cancel it and come to a new agreement on payments, but just because it's prudent doesn't mean people have to accept this.
    But he did cancel the stake. He did just that. All he has to do is say I am not playing for you and thats it. I'm not saying he is right but that's what happened. Where is this rule saying both sides have to agree?

    he is the one that is supposed to be playing. All he has to do is say I am not playing for you anymore. And again I am not condoning what he did but I have seen many people quit stakes for many different reasons and his reason is he stole all the money.

    He basically told them they were fucked over

    When he says he blew the money it's over right there.

    And LOL @ any backers still wanting pieces of this guys main action after he just blew all their money
    China, he posted on a forum an agreement between himself and several people to play x events. He can't break said agreement and still play the events without the permission of the other party. He can cancel the stake on his own IF he doesn't play the Main Event, otherwise he needs to come to an agreement with the other side before the stake is officially cancelled.
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    Gold Steve-O's Avatar
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    But he did cancel the stake. He did just that. All he has to do is say I am not playing for you and thats it. I'm not saying he is right but that's what happened. Where is this rule saying both sides have to agree?
    Under this logic anyone who runs a stake for multiple events that has a huge score up front should just say "ending the stake and I'll send you what you are owed" because they can now play on their own money --assuming they want to.

    In any agreement there has to be mutual consent to end it. Just because you fuck up doesn't mean the stake is over; the stake is over when you AND your backers say it is over, unless worded otherwise at the outset. Unfortunately, in most instances it's not enough to take a person to court over, but you would certainly win if you did. Take the Sep situation, any of the backers could take him to court as he made an agreement and guaranteed 100% stakeback, the only things stopping someone from doing it is that A) he has no money, and B) its not enough money to be worth the time and court costs.

    You're right that they SHOULD want to end it at this point, but it doesn't mean they HAVE to, or he can just end it when he wants and still play the remaining events. The big issue is that he still played in the Main Event, and unless all of his backers agreed to this it's not as open and shut as you are making it out to be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve-O View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by chinamaniac View Post
    But he did cancel the stake. He did just that. All he has to do is say I am not playing for you and thats it. I'm not saying he is right but that's what happened. Where is this rule saying both sides have to agree?

    he is the one that is supposed to be playing. All he has to do is say I am not playing for you anymore. And again I am not condoning what he did but I have seen many people quit stakes for many different reasons and his reason is he stole all the money.

    He basically told them they were fucked over

    When he says he blew the money it's over right there.

    And LOL @ any backers still wanting pieces of this guys main action after he just blew all their money
    China, he posted on a forum an agreement between himself and several people to play x events. He can't break said agreement and still play the events without the permission of the other party. He can cancel the stake on his own IF he doesn't play the Main Event, otherwise he needs to come to an agreement with the other side before the stake is officially cancelled.
    But he did do this

    I have seen things like this happen before with cash stakers and they are scummy

    Guy gets staked, blows bankroll playing plo when he is supposed to be playing NL, tells backers he found a new backer and has to grind their money back or he just owes them.

    Then guy goes and plays NL for someone else

  8. #48
    Gold Steve-O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chinamaniac View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve-O View Post

    China, he posted on a forum an agreement between himself and several people to play x events. He can't break said agreement and still play the events without the permission of the other party. He can cancel the stake on his own IF he doesn't play the Main Event, otherwise he needs to come to an agreement with the other side before the stake is officially cancelled.
    But he did do this

    I have seen things like this happen before with cash stakers and they are scummy

    Guy gets staked, blows bankroll playing plo when he is supposed to be playing NL, tells backers he found a new backer and has to grind their money back or he just owes them.

    Then guy goes and plays NL for someone else
    different situation. he made an agreement to play specifically the WSOP Main Event (not the more vague cash games) and then enters into a new agreement to play .... the WSOP Main Event. Sorry, but unless the backers all agree, he is still on the hook for their original package. His options are:

    1) make a settlement that both sides agree to and enter into the new staking deal
    2) cancel the stake and not play the Main Event

    You're right that the backers would be stupid to keep backing him, but you are wrong that the deal is cancelled without their ok.

     
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      ShadyJ: agree 100%
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve-O View Post
    But he did cancel the stake. He did just that. All he has to do is say I am not playing for you and thats it. I'm not saying he is right but that's what happened. Where is this rule saying both sides have to agree?
    Under this logic anyone who runs a stake for multiple events that has a huge score up front should just say "ending the stake and I'll send you what you are owed" because they can now play on their own money --assuming they want to.

    In any agreement there has to be mutual consent to end it. Just because you fuck up doesn't mean the stake is over; the stake is over when you AND your backers say it is over, unless worded otherwise at the outset. Unfortunately, in most instances it's not enough to take a person to court over, but you would certainly win if you did. Take the Sep situation, any of the backers could take him to court as he made an agreement and guaranteed 100% stakeback, the only things stopping someone from doing it is that A) he has no money, and B) its not enough money to be worth the time and court costs.

    You're right that they SHOULD want to end it at this point, but it doesn't mean they HAVE to, or he can just end it when he wants and still play the remaining events. The big issue is that he still played in the Main Event, and unless all of his backers agreed to this it's not as open and shut as you are making it out to be.
    Under this logic anyone who runs a stake for multiple events that has a huge score up front should just say "ending the stake and I'll send you what you are owed" because they can now play on their own money --assuming they want to.

    This happens a lot. I have ended cash stakes early because I have ran really hot but I always let backers know upfront I could end it at any time.

    But regardless, if someone hits a score and wants to cash out I generally wouldn't have a problem with that. They could just say they quit. Once they quit they can do what they want. It may piss backers off but people do this all of the time.


    In any agreement there has to be mutual consent to end it.
    maybe in a court of law, but this isn't a court of law and I have never heard of any poker backing staking arrangement go to a court of law

    Just because you fuck up doesn't mean the stake is over; the stake is over when you AND your backers say it is over, unless worded otherwise at the outset.

    Guy quit and ended the stake because he stole all of the money

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve-O View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by chinamaniac View Post
    But he did do this

    I have seen things like this happen before with cash stakers and they are scummy

    Guy gets staked, blows bankroll playing plo when he is supposed to be playing NL, tells backers he found a new backer and has to grind their money back or he just owes them.

    Then guy goes and plays NL for someone else
    different situation. he made an agreement to play specifically the WSOP Main Event (not the more vague cash games) and then enters into a new agreement to play .... the WSOP Main Event. Sorry, but unless the backers all agree, he is still on the hook for their original package. His options are:

    1) make a settlement that both sides agree to and enter into the new staking deal
    2) cancel the stake and not play the Main Event

    You're right that the backers would be stupid to keep backing him, but you are wrong that the deal is cancelled without their ok.
    3. Roll them all , quit on them and pick up a new stake

  11. #51
    Gold Steve-O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chinamaniac View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve-O View Post

    different situation. he made an agreement to play specifically the WSOP Main Event (not the more vague cash games) and then enters into a new agreement to play .... the WSOP Main Event. Sorry, but unless the backers all agree, he is still on the hook for their original package. His options are:

    1) make a settlement that both sides agree to and enter into the new staking deal
    2) cancel the stake and not play the Main Event

    You're right that the backers would be stupid to keep backing him, but you are wrong that the deal is cancelled without their ok.
    3. Roll them all , quit on them and pick up a new stake
    China, you're reasoning is based on being realistic about the expected outcome, not what is legally right. Yes, in the poker world this shit happens, and you need to find the path of least resistance to get your money back. BUT, what you simply are not getting is that this isn't "the way" it is done; it's the way most people in the poker world deal with it. If someone in his stake wanted to be a hardo he could simply say "NO" you are still playing the ME with my stake, I will not let you out of the agreement if you are playing in the ME. Now, chances are he would never get paid, but that doesn't make him in the wrong, or not owed whatever Beyne cashes for.

    Will he get it? probably not. Is he within his rights to do this? Absolutely. Imagine if Beyne binks the ME and gets $8 million, you don't think the guy who said "NO" to his proposed buyout wouldn't sue him? Your logic is that since it is likely for a lesser amount it's fine for him to cancel the stake but if it were for an amount that someone could be sued for that's different. Problem is, legally he entered into a binding agreement, just because the poker world says "oh well, live and learn" doesn't mean that's the only solution to the issue.

    This happens a lot. I have ended cash stakes early because I have ran really hot but I always let backers know upfront I could end it at any time.

    But regardless, if someone hits a score and wants to cash out I generally wouldn't have a problem with that. They could just say they quit. Once they quit they can do what they want. It may piss backers off but people do this all of the time.
    Bolded part is not the case here; there was no "termination clause" in his stake

    So if everyone bought a piece of you for 10 specific WSOP tournaments (not cash games), you think it's ok to end it if you hit a big score after the first event and then still play all the events from the original stake without their approval?
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    Anyhow I see everyones points and this has been a good debate but ultimately I think both parties handled this terribly and gein was the main reason for this because he had terrible communication with them on top of stealing.

    Interested to hear Sheets opinion on this as well because I am sure he has ran into spots similar to this in the past

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve-O View Post
    So if everyone bought a piece of you for 10 WSOP tournaments (not cash games), you think it's ok to end it if you hit a big score after the first event and then still play all the events from the original stake without their approval?
    More than likely if I was staked for 10 events and hit a million the first score I would probably just play it out.

    If I was a backer and someone hit for a million and told me they wanted off the stake I would have absolutely 0 problem with it and would wish them continued success and thank them for a great score. I have run into this many times staking people online when they ran hot in cash games, sngos and mtts and just let them go

    What happens if someone that lives in West Virginia hits their first event for 2.5 million decides to quit poker right then and there after the first WSOP event and then pays everyone out there shares and gives back all stake money for events they cancelled.

    40 days into the series they come back to Vegas and decide they want to play in an event that was originally on the schedule they had. Should they have to go to call 100 people who had pieces and get their permission to play in an event?

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    Gold Steve-O's Avatar
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    If I was a backer and someone hit for a million and told me they wanted off the stake I would have absolutely 0 problem with it and would wish them continued success and thank them for a great score. I have run into this many times staking people online when they ran hot in cash games, sngos and mtts and just let them go
    But what if you didn't want to end the stake as the backer?

    What happens if someone that lives in West Virginia hits their first event for 2.5 million decides to quit poker right then and there after the first WSOP event and then pays everyone out there shares and gives back all stake money for events they cancelled.

    40 days into the series they come back to Vegas and decide they want to play in an event that was originally on the schedule they had. Should they have to go to call 100 people who had pieces and get their permission to play in an event?
    This is not what happened though, he never said I'm not playing the ME and then later changed his mind. He already hooked up with another backer for the ME and is basically dictating how the stake will be settled, despite being the scumbag in the whole situation
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    Don't really understand why you're still debating this.

    The original backers are never going to see a dime of any of this money. I did better in the Jasep BAP then they will here & he had 2 good cashes to start it off.

    [/Thread]
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hockey Guy
    I'd say good luck in the freeroll but I'm pretty sure you'll go on a bender to self-sabotage yourself & miss it completely or use it as the excuse of why you didn't cash.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hockey Guy View Post
    Don't really understand why you're still debating this.

    The original backers are never going to see a dime of any of this money. I did better in the Jasep BAP then they will here & he had 2 good cashes to start it off.

    [/Thread]
    because the topic itself is interesting. I could give two shits about the actual situation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve-O View Post
    But what if you didn't want to end the stake as the backer?

    What happens if someone that lives in West Virginia hits their first event for 2.5 million decides to quit poker right then and there after the first WSOP event and then pays everyone out there shares and gives back all stake money for events they cancelled.

    40 days into the series they come back to Vegas and decide they want to play in an event that was originally on the schedule they had. Should they have to go to call 100 people who had pieces and get their permission to play in an event?
    What if this did happen?

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    See, I actually think he can cancel the stake, but only under one of the following two circumstances:

    1) He refunds all of the money immediately
    2) He is someone that is extremely trusted to pay it back later (someone like me)

    Ending the stake early is NOT the big issue here.

    The big issue is the reason he ended the stake (he stole the money), combined with the fact that he then played the same event with other money.

    This is the ultimate freeroll on his part, and it's not fair to the backers.

    The ONLY way out of a stake into an event (where you play anyway) is to refund every penny, so the stakers are at zero risk at that point.

    Once you start the event and they are not paid back, the stake cannot said to be "canceled". Again, the only exception involves people with an impeccable payback record, but that obviously doesn't apply here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    See, I actually think he can cancel the stake, but only under one of the following two circumstances:

    1) He refunds all of the money immediately
    2) He is someone that is extremely trusted to pay it back later (someone like me)

    Ending the stake early is NOT the big issue here.

    The big issue is the reason he ended the stake (he stole the money), combined with the fact that he then played the same event with other money.

    This is the ultimate freeroll on his part, and it's not fair to the backers.

    The ONLY way out of a stake into an event (where you play anyway) is to refund every penny, so the stakers are at zero risk at that point.

    Once you start the event and they are not paid back, the stake cannot said to be "canceled". Again, the only exception involves people with an impeccable payback record, but that obviously doesn't apply here.
    So after he spends all the money and gets offered a stake is he supposed to turn it down?

    I'm not saying stealing the money is a good reason to cancel a stake but thats what he did. it isn't ethically right obv but we are dealing with a thief here

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    purely theoretical here, but, i am curious -- what if the situation were different....what if a backer came to Gehkenbein and said I want my money back I am not backing you.

    Is the deal unilaterally canceled?

    What if Geshkenbein says, well that is fine, but you are going to have to loan me your stake because i am broke and it is too late for me to find other backers. The guy is due the stake back and nothing more?

    What if the backer says that is not good enough, I want to cancel and you must pay me back now so I know I am truly out instead of being dependent on your play just to get my money back? If Geshkenbein goes ahead and plays anyway, what does Geshkenbein owe the guy? If he loses, it seems Geshkenbein still owes the guy back the stake. IF Geshkenbein wins, he owes the guy the stake. He probably doesnt owe the guy a full share in the cash, but he does probably owe the guy some compensation for the risk the guy was forced to undertake against his agreeement.

    It seems like there is a potential for the freerolling to go both ways. Just interesting discussion

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