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Thread: Vladimir Geshkenbein finishes 62nd in ME and scams his backers

  1. #21
    Diamond chinamaniac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve-O View Post
    China, what if there really isn't a second backer? What if Beyne still has enough to play the Main Event but he decides he can freeroll these guys, and if he cashes in the Main Event he pays what he owes them from the cancelled stake, and if he bricks it he cries poorhouse and slowpays til his next score?

    Also, would these guys have invested if the Main Event wasn't part of the deal? This is like taking a cruise to Puerto Rico and then as you pull into Florida they tell you it's the last stop but they'll refund the amount of the Puerto Rico portion of the trip.

    Now, if these backers agree that the stake was over (knowing he was going to play the Main) then they deserve nothing more than a refund. So, I agree with China IF we know this is precisely what happened, but would anyone be surprised if he just wanted to play the Main Event as what amounts to a freeroll, at least for a few months?
    if there isn't a second backer and he is lying (which would be hard to prove) then he still owes you this

    1. All cashes up till the main and your profit % + whatever money you invested in the main. He says he is not playing with your money anymore and if he made this clear then it is what it is.

    If the guy is lying then you are dealing with a scumbag(either way he is a scumbag). But regardless of whether he has a new backer or not he said he had a new backer and he admitted to blowing your money, your portion of the stake is over. he owes u every cent he screwed you on up until this point + buyins


    What if Beyne still has enough to play the Main Event but he decides he can freeroll these guys, and if he cashes in the Main Event he pays what he owes them from the cancelled stake, and if he bricks it he cries poorhouse and slowpays til his next score?

    if this is the case then exactly what reggiman said in his post. Pick better horses who won't blow your money. If he is freerolling them and has the money he still owes them their buyins back. Whether he wqas lying or not he said he blew the cash.

    if I were a backer right then and there I step back and say u owe me everything from the package u cashed for + my main money I Put up. I don't care if he wins the main event at this point. I would try and set the number he owed me.

    But once the guy told me he is on another stake and he blew the money I gave him I would not expect a dime from his main run and would just want my money back that I invested


    Also, would these guys have invested if the Main Event wasn't part of the deal? This is like taking a cruise to Puerto Rico and then as you pull into Florida they tell you it's the last stop but they'll refund the amount of the Puerto Rico portion of the trip.


    This is the risk of staking. If I loved the guys main event part of the deal then great. But once he fucks me I realize I have picked a super crappy degenerate and just want my money back.



    Now, if these backers agree that the stake was over (knowing he was going to play the Main) then they deserve nothing more than a refund. So, I agree with China IF we know this is precisely what happened,


    I don't know what they agreed on and I don't really care. I am just saying and reggiman agrees, once he tells me he blew the main buyin money I am cutting him off. Whether he is playing with my money still or has a legit backer I would never know. But if I was the staker I step up and say your cutoff. You owe me for events cashed + my portion of events not played.



    but would anyone be surprised if he just wanted to play the Main Event as what amounts to a freeroll, at least for a few months?


    if that's what he did then he just blew his reputation ion the community over 10,000 but we will likely never know. Remember this guy is a site pro too. Nobody will trust this guy again and wouldn't be surprised if he gets his sponsorship cut at some point.
    Last edited by chinamaniac; 08-01-2013 at 10:54 AM.

  2. #22
    Gold Steve-O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chinamaniac View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve-O View Post
    China, what if there really isn't a second backer? What if Beyne still has enough to play the Main Event but he decides he can freeroll these guys, and if he cashes in the Main Event he pays what he owes them from the cancelled stake, and if he bricks it he cries poorhouse and slowpays til his next score?

    Also, would these guys have invested if the Main Event wasn't part of the deal? This is like taking a cruise to Puerto Rico and then as you pull into Florida they tell you it's the last stop but they'll refund the amount of the Puerto Rico portion of the trip.

    Now, if these backers agree that the stake was over (knowing he was going to play the Main) then they deserve nothing more than a refund. So, I agree with China IF we know this is precisely what happened, but would anyone be surprised if he just wanted to play the Main Event as what amounts to a freeroll, at least for a few months?
    if there isn't a second backer and he is lying (which would be hard to prove) then he still owes you this

    1. All cashes up till the main and your profit % + whatever money you invested in the main. He says he is not playing with your money anymore and if he made this clear then it is what it is.

    If the guy is lying then you are dealing with a scumbag. But regardless of whether he has a new backer or not he said he had a new backer and he admitted to blowing your money, your portion of the stake is over. he owes u every cent he screwed you on up until this point + buyins


    What if Beyne still has enough to play the Main Event but he decides he can freeroll these guys, and if he cashes in the Main Event he pays what he owes them from the cancelled stake, and if he bricks it he cries poorhouse and slowpays til his next score?

    if this is the case then exactly what reggiman said in his post. Pick better horses who won't blow your money. If he is freerolling them and has the money he still owes them their buyins back. Whether he wqas lying or not he said he blew the cash.

    if I were a backer right then and there I step back and say u owe me everything from the package u cashed for + my main money I Put up. I don't care if he wins the main event at this point. I would try and set the number he owed me.

    But once the guy told me he is on another stake and he blew the money I gave him I would not expect a dime from his main run and would just want my money back that I invested


    Also, would these guys have invested if the Main Event wasn't part of the deal? This is like taking a cruise to Puerto Rico and then as you pull into Florida they tell you it's the last stop but they'll refund the amount of the Puerto Rico portion of the trip.


    This is the risk of staking. If I loved the guys main event part of the deal then great. But once he fucks me I realize I have picked a super crappy degenerate and just want my money back.



    Now, if these backers agree that the stake was over (knowing he was going to play the Main) then they deserve nothing more than a refund. So, I agree with China IF we know this is precisely what happened,


    I don't know what they agreed on and I don't really care. I am just saying and reggiman agrees, once he tells me he blew the main buyin money I am cutting him off. Whether he is playing with my money still or has a legit backer I would never know. But if I was the staker I step up and say your cutoff. You owe me for events cashed + my portion of events not played.



    but would anyone be surprised if he just wanted to play the Main Event as what amounts to a freeroll, at least for a few months?


    if that's what he did then he just blew his reputation ion the community over 10,000 but we will likely never know. Remember this guy is a site pro too. Nobody will trust this guy again and wouldn't be surprised if he gets his sponsorship cut at some point.
    So you would take a scumbag's word on what happened? Both parties have to agree on the deal being cancelled imo. If you staked me for 10 events and I binked one early on I can't just say, oh I'm playing with someone else's money now (mine), the deal we had is off, here's your money back. If you don't agree, and can prove we have an agreement, I owe you whatever else I cash for until the stake is over.

    Like I said though, this all depends on WHAT they agreed to after he said he degen'd everything. I'd be beyond pissed if some guy I staked broke it off before it was finished and still played in the final event. I would never let him out of the staking deal to begin with if I knew he was still playing the tournament; I'd say if you're playing you will owe my %, we have an agreement.

    For instance, if he won the Main Event (assuming the original backers never agreed to some buyout and they have everything written down somewhere on a forum) it would be an open and shut case that he owes them their percentage. It's a binding agreement between two parties
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  3. #23
    Diamond chinamaniac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve-O View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by chinamaniac View Post
    if there isn't a second backer and he is lying (which would be hard to prove) then he still owes you this

    1. All cashes up till the main and your profit % + whatever money you invested in the main. He says he is not playing with your money anymore and if he made this clear then it is what it is.

    If the guy is lying then you are dealing with a scumbag. But regardless of whether he has a new backer or not he said he had a new backer and he admitted to blowing your money, your portion of the stake is over. he owes u every cent he screwed you on up until this point + buyins


    What if Beyne still has enough to play the Main Event but he decides he can freeroll these guys, and if he cashes in the Main Event he pays what he owes them from the cancelled stake, and if he bricks it he cries poorhouse and slowpays til his next score?

    if this is the case then exactly what reggiman said in his post. Pick better horses who won't blow your money. If he is freerolling them and has the money he still owes them their buyins back. Whether he wqas lying or not he said he blew the cash.

    if I were a backer right then and there I step back and say u owe me everything from the package u cashed for + my main money I Put up. I don't care if he wins the main event at this point. I would try and set the number he owed me.

    But once the guy told me he is on another stake and he blew the money I gave him I would not expect a dime from his main run and would just want my money back that I invested


    Also, would these guys have invested if the Main Event wasn't part of the deal? This is like taking a cruise to Puerto Rico and then as you pull into Florida they tell you it's the last stop but they'll refund the amount of the Puerto Rico portion of the trip.


    This is the risk of staking. If I loved the guys main event part of the deal then great. But once he fucks me I realize I have picked a super crappy degenerate and just want my money back.



    Now, if these backers agree that the stake was over (knowing he was going to play the Main) then they deserve nothing more than a refund. So, I agree with China IF we know this is precisely what happened,


    I don't know what they agreed on and I don't really care. I am just saying and reggiman agrees, once he tells me he blew the main buyin money I am cutting him off. Whether he is playing with my money still or has a legit backer I would never know. But if I was the staker I step up and say your cutoff. You owe me for events cashed + my portion of events not played.



    but would anyone be surprised if he just wanted to play the Main Event as what amounts to a freeroll, at least for a few months?


    if that's what he did then he just blew his reputation ion the community over 10,000 but we will likely never know. Remember this guy is a site pro too. Nobody will trust this guy again and wouldn't be surprised if he gets his sponsorship cut at some point.
    So you would take a scumbag's word on what happened? Both parties have to agree on the deal being cancelled imo. If you staked me for 10 events and I binked one early on I can't just say, oh I'm playing with someone else's money now (mine), the deal we had is off, here's your money back. If you don't agree, and can prove we have an agreement, I owe you whatever else I cash for until the stake is over.

    Like I said though, this all depends on WHAT they agreed to after he said he degen'd everything. I'd be beyond pissed if some guy I staked broke it off before it was finished and still played in the final event. I would never let him out of the staking deal to begin with if I knew he was still playing the tournament; I'd say if you're playing you will owe my %, we have an agreement.

    For instance, if he won the Main Event (assuming the original backers never agreed to some buyout and they have everything written down somewhere on a forum) it would be an open and shut case that he owes them their percentage. It's a binding agreement between two parties
    So you would take a scumbag's word on what happened?

    What are my options? Once he tells me he blew my money I staked him I cut him off completely and figure out what he owes me. he is a scumbag whether is telling the truth or lying so it doesn't change anything. I just would want to settle a figure right at this point and wouldn't want part of his action

    Both parties have to agree on the deal being cancelled imo.

    agreed. If I were a backer I would tell the guy I want my money back and set a figure.

    If you staked me for 10 events and I binked one early on I can't just say, oh I'm playing with someone else's money now (mine), the deal we had is off, here's your money back. If you don't agree, and can prove we have an agreement, I owe you whatever else I cash for until the stake is over.

    If you tell me this after the fact then I say sorry buddy we have an agreement and YOU PLAYED THE MTT UNDER THAT AGREEMENT and u owe me xxxxxx. I wouldn't care what other deals you had in place.


    Like I said though, this all depends on WHAT they agreed to after he said he degen'd everything. I'd be beyond pissed if some guy I staked broke it off before it was finished and still played in the final event. I would never let him out of the staking deal to begin with if I knew he was still playing the tournament; I'd say if you're playing you will owe my %, we have an agreement.


    This was the problem. I don't think there was ever a set agreement on how they would handle things because some backers felt one way and others felt another way and this scammer felt another way.

    I'm just saying how I would have handled it and how every big staker I have talked to said they would have tried to handle it is to just cut the guy off and get the funds + main buyin money back at a later time. At this point you know you are dealing with a very dishonest person. I wouldn't even want a piece of his main. i would also noose myself for buying action from a scumbag like this.

    For instance, if he won the Main Event (assuming the original backers never agreed to some buyout and they have everything written down somewhere on a forum) it would be an open and shut case that he owes them their percentage. It's a binding agreement between two parties

    I agree with this. He would owe them + he would owe his "new backer" and he would be double fucked if he really did have a new backer.

    I am just making the point that as soon as he tells me he rolled the main stake money I would do my best to just make sure to try and settle a figure with him and not have a piece of the main stake money

    And I am just making the point that everyone I have talked to in the staking world would have done the same thing. get a figure down and hope he pays you and not take any of the main action

  4. #24
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    The big problem here is the financial situation and character of the person involved, which VERY MUCH figures into the matter.

    I'll use myself as an example.

    In 2010, I sold pieces of myself to the WSOP $10k Limit event. I then got very sick for 11 days, and the event fell right in the middle of that period. I announced that I would not be playing, and told everyone they would be getting a refund.

    In reality, I didn't play the event, but let's say for argument's sake that I woke up on the day of the $10k Limit and felt somewhat well enough to play, but didn't want to risk staker money on it, since I didn't want anyone doubting I was in good enough physical condition to be playing with their money. I probably would have given people a last-minute choice to opt back in (with the default being that it was canceled for everyone unless they opted in), but let's say that nobody saw it in time, and I ended up playing with 100% my own money. And let's say I ended up winning it.

    Would I owe anyone extra money beyond what they bought in? No.

    Because the stake was canceled, and I was going to pay them back what they bought in, whether I won or lost.

    That was China's point about this Beyne guy.

    BUT WAIT!!!

    There's a huge difference here.

    I have a longstanding reputation of being financially stable and conservative. I think everyone here would agree that they would have zero doubt that they would get their money back in the above situation.

    With Beyne, it was a different story. He was a known degenerate. He admitted many times (including in a blog just before the WSOP) that he was basically broke and needed the stakes to be able to enter the WSOP.

    Had he canceled the stake and let someone hold the money to be returned in escrow, this would have been a different story.

    However, the stake was canceled only because he stole the money that he was given for the stake in the first place! That is not a valid reason for cancellation. In fact, canceling any stake is never appropriate unless the person is either financially secure (and therefore there are no doubts he can refund the money), or the person returns the money immediately.

    This was indeed a freeroll.

    He stole the money staked to him for the WSOP Main, and then told everyone that someone else would be buying him into the WSOP Main so he could possibly return their funds, but that was the best they could possibly do, regarding his results.

    So let's look at this realistically.

    If Beyne didn't cash the WSOP Main, the original stakers would have recevied NO MONEY and would have lost what they staked him, even though he had canceled the stake.

    If Beyne cashed the WSOP Main enough to pay the original stakers back, they would receive their money back with no profits.

    This is the exact definition of being freerolled! When someone freerolls you, your best-case scenario is breaking even, and your worst case is losing everything. It's all risk and zero reward.

    This was a freeroll because there was NOT a realistic expectation that these people would ever get paid if he failed to cash the WSOP.

    In the example I gave of my own stake cancellation, it would be a shocking, out-of-character fluke for people not to receive their money back.

    This is the same reason that I am happy to play +EV games against large casinos (knowing I will get paid), but I would never play the same casino games at Chino Rheem's house.

  5. #25
    Gold Steve-O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chinamaniac View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve-O View Post

    So you would take a scumbag's word on what happened? Both parties have to agree on the deal being cancelled imo. If you staked me for 10 events and I binked one early on I can't just say, oh I'm playing with someone else's money now (mine), the deal we had is off, here's your money back. If you don't agree, and can prove we have an agreement, I owe you whatever else I cash for until the stake is over.

    Like I said though, this all depends on WHAT they agreed to after he said he degen'd everything. I'd be beyond pissed if some guy I staked broke it off before it was finished and still played in the final event. I would never let him out of the staking deal to begin with if I knew he was still playing the tournament; I'd say if you're playing you will owe my %, we have an agreement.

    For instance, if he won the Main Event (assuming the original backers never agreed to some buyout and they have everything written down somewhere on a forum) it would be an open and shut case that he owes them their percentage. It's a binding agreement between two parties
    So you would take a scumbag's word on what happened?

    What are my options? Once he tells me he blew my money I staked him I cut him off completely and figure out what he owes me. he is a scumbag whether is telling the truth or lying so it doesn't change anything. I just would want to settle a figure right at this point and wouldn't want part of his action

    Both parties have to agree on the deal being cancelled imo.

    agreed. If I were a backer I would tell the guy I want my money back and set a figure.

    If you staked me for 10 events and I binked one early on I can't just say, oh I'm playing with someone else's money now (mine), the deal we had is off, here's your money back. If you don't agree, and can prove we have an agreement, I owe you whatever else I cash for until the stake is over.

    If you tell me this after the fact then I say sorry buddy we have an agreement and YOU PLAYED THE MTT UNDER THAT AGREEMENT and u owe me xxxxxx. I wouldn't care what other deals you had in place.


    Like I said though, this all depends on WHAT they agreed to after he said he degen'd everything. I'd be beyond pissed if some guy I staked broke it off before it was finished and still played in the final event. I would never let him out of the staking deal to begin with if I knew he was still playing the tournament; I'd say if you're playing you will owe my %, we have an agreement.


    This was the problem. I don't think there was ever a set agreement on how they would handle things because some backers felt one way and others felt another way and this scammer felt another way.

    I'm just saying how I would have handled it and how every big staker I have talked to said they would have tried to handle it is to just cut the guy off and get the funds + main buyin money back at a later time. At this point you know you are dealing with a very dishonest person. I wouldn't even want a piece of his main. i would also noose myself for buying action from a scumbag like this.

    For instance, if he won the Main Event (assuming the original backers never agreed to some buyout and they have everything written down somewhere on a forum) it would be an open and shut case that he owes them their percentage. It's a binding agreement between two parties

    I agree with this. He would owe them + he would owe his "new backer" and he would be double fucked if he really did have a new backer.

    I am just making the point that as soon as he tells me he rolled the main stake money I would do my best to just make sure to try and settle a figure with him and not have a piece of the main stake money

    And I am just making the point that everyone I have talked to in the staking world would have done the same thing. get a figure down and hope he pays you and not take any of the main action
    Ok, I get what you are saying now. Basically because they agreed to a settlement they have to keep that deal. My only point on this was that if say someone with 10% of his ME, said "No, I will not let you out of our agreement if you are playing in the tournament." He could easily win a court case so long as it was worth the trouble from a financial standpoint. The other people who agreed to the buyout would not have the same option. Also, the guy who would not take the buyout would not be entitled to a ME refund if Beyne busted in the above scenario.
    I write things about poker at my Poker Blog and elsewhere on the Internets

  6. #26
    Diamond chinamaniac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    However, the stake was canceled only because he stole the money that he was given for the stake in the first place! That is not a valid reason for cancellation. In fact, canceling any stake is never appropriate unless the person is either financially secure (and therefore there are no doubts he can refund the money), or the person returns the money immediately.

    This was indeed a freeroll.

    He stole the money staked to him for the WSOP Main, and then told everyone that someone else would be buying him into the WSOP Main so he could possibly return their funds, but that was the best they could possibly do, regarding his results.

    So let's look at this realistically.

    If Beyne didn't cash the WSOP Main, the original stakers would have recevied NO MONEY and would have lost what they staked him, even though he had canceled the stake.

    If Beyne cashed the WSOP Main enough to pay the original stakers back, they would receive their money back with no profits.

    This is the exact definition of being freerolled! When someone freerolls you, your best-case scenario is breaking even, and your worst case is losing everything. It's all risk and zero reward.

    This was a freeroll because there was NOT a realistic expectation that these people would ever get paid if he failed to cash the WSOP.

    In the example I gave of my own stake cancellation, it would be a shocking, out-of-character fluke for people not to receive their money back.

    This is the same reason that I am happy to play +EV games against large casinos (knowing I will get paid), but I would never play the same casino games at Chino Rheem's house.
    However, the stake was canceled only because he stole the money that he was given for the stake in the first place! That is not a valid reason for cancellation. In fact, canceling any stake is never appropriate unless the person is either financially secure (and therefore there are no doubts he can refund the money), or the person returns the money immediately.

    Once someone tells me they stole my money I still cut them off and try to recoup what they owe me. I think it is a VERY valid reason to for cancellation. As a backer I DONT WANT this guys action anymore and I WANT the cancellation.



    He stole the money staked to him for the WSOP Main, and then told everyone that someone else would be buying him into the WSOP Main so he could possibly return their funds, but that was the best they could possibly do, regarding his results.

    if this is exactly how it went down I still WANT the cancellation. I try to set a figure before the event starts on what he owes me as a backer. Every staker I have talked to would have tried to handle it this way.

    If Beyne didn't cash the WSOP Main, the original stakers would have recevied NO MONEY and would have lost what they staked him, even though he had canceled the stake.

    This is the tricky part of where everything got confusing with Beyne and his backers. I would have told the guy to go fuck himself if he tried to come up with some deal where I get fucked either way. I would have made it clear to him what I thought he owed me.

    I would have said this- Look beyne, you can have your "new backer". You owe me my % of tournaments cashed in and you owe me the money I put up for the main. Best of luck. And then I would have said if you don't agree to this then we will get an arbitrator and if you don't agree to have an arbitrator then you are done in the poker commuminity.

    Then I would have said to myself why did I trust some jackass?

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve-O View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by chinamaniac View Post

    So you would take a scumbag's word on what happened?

    What are my options? Once he tells me he blew my money I staked him I cut him off completely and figure out what he owes me. he is a scumbag whether is telling the truth or lying so it doesn't change anything. I just would want to settle a figure right at this point and wouldn't want part of his action

    Both parties have to agree on the deal being cancelled imo.

    agreed. If I were a backer I would tell the guy I want my money back and set a figure.

    If you staked me for 10 events and I binked one early on I can't just say, oh I'm playing with someone else's money now (mine), the deal we had is off, here's your money back. If you don't agree, and can prove we have an agreement, I owe you whatever else I cash for until the stake is over.

    If you tell me this after the fact then I say sorry buddy we have an agreement and YOU PLAYED THE MTT UNDER THAT AGREEMENT and u owe me xxxxxx. I wouldn't care what other deals you had in place.


    Like I said though, this all depends on WHAT they agreed to after he said he degen'd everything. I'd be beyond pissed if some guy I staked broke it off before it was finished and still played in the final event. I would never let him out of the staking deal to begin with if I knew he was still playing the tournament; I'd say if you're playing you will owe my %, we have an agreement.


    This was the problem. I don't think there was ever a set agreement on how they would handle things because some backers felt one way and others felt another way and this scammer felt another way.

    I'm just saying how I would have handled it and how every big staker I have talked to said they would have tried to handle it is to just cut the guy off and get the funds + main buyin money back at a later time. At this point you know you are dealing with a very dishonest person. I wouldn't even want a piece of his main. i would also noose myself for buying action from a scumbag like this.

    For instance, if he won the Main Event (assuming the original backers never agreed to some buyout and they have everything written down somewhere on a forum) it would be an open and shut case that he owes them their percentage. It's a binding agreement between two parties

    I agree with this. He would owe them + he would owe his "new backer" and he would be double fucked if he really did have a new backer.

    I am just making the point that as soon as he tells me he rolled the main stake money I would do my best to just make sure to try and settle a figure with him and not have a piece of the main stake money

    And I am just making the point that everyone I have talked to in the staking world would have done the same thing. get a figure down and hope he pays you and not take any of the main action
    Ok, I get what you are saying now. Basically because they agreed to a settlement they have to keep that deal. My only point on this was that if say someone with 10% of his ME, said "No, I will not let you out of our agreement if you are playing in the tournament." He could easily win a court case so long as it was worth the trouble from a financial standpoint. The other people who agreed to the buyout would not have the same option. Also, the guy who would not take the buyout would not be entitled to a ME refund if Beyne busted in the above scenario.

    Sure they may win a court case but do you really want a court case(costs etc..)? The chances of this getting big enough for a court case is slim although possible and could be very hard to do if backers etc are from multiple countries which is why I would try and end the staking arrangement and recoup what I thought was fair

     
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    Serial Blogger BeerAndPoker's Avatar
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    I'm not going to go into depth too much but this guy clearly rolled his backers and the most anyone could really hope for is a refund. Whether that is considered proper justice or not is something I'm not going to comment on but they will be lucky to get a refund of the initial buyin(s?) and just part ways with this monkey.

    This needs to be blown up to ruin Vladmir's reputation in the poker and staking community. Hopefully people will give him the finger down the road when he needs backing again because of how he handled this and he will likely want that if he plays a ton of live high stakes mtt's.

    It's a shit situation and PKR clearly just don't want to comment but if enough people blow them up about it as we have seen in previous cases they will have no choice but to make a statement or do something about it like parting ways with Vladmir.

    #nomoneyinstakingeveryonegonnagetrolled

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    Master of Props Daly's Avatar
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    About a month later, four days prior to Day 1C of the Main (July 4), he comes forward and admits he is broke and has chunked off all of the money (both buyins and winnings). This includes both losing and paying prior debts. He says that he will be unable to afford to play the Main.



    Timing is everything here. So long as he canceled the stake BEFORE the start of the main event then he is in the clear other then the $10K refund.

    If he is playing day 4 and tries to pull this stunt off..... it's a whole different ball of wax.

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daly View Post
    About a month later, four days prior to Day 1C of the Main (July 4), he comes forward and admits he is broke and has chunked off all of the money (both buyins and winnings). This includes both losing and paying prior debts. He says that he will be unable to afford to play the Main.



    Timing is everything here. So long as he canceled the stake BEFORE the start of the main event then he is in the clear other then the $10K refund.

    If he is playing day 4 and tries to pull this stunt off..... it's a whole different ball of wax.
    But how is he "in the clear" if the reason for cancellation was his own theft of the money, and his admission that he had no way to pay the people back unless someone else separately staked him, and he paid back from those proceeds?

    I feel a "cancellation" of a stake is only valid if you actually have everyone's money to refund at the time you cancelled it.

    There is no doubt here (even by his own admission) that he did not have this money.

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chinamaniac View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    However, the stake was canceled only because he stole the money that he was given for the stake in the first place! That is not a valid reason for cancellation. In fact, canceling any stake is never appropriate unless the person is either financially secure (and therefore there are no doubts he can refund the money), or the person returns the money immediately.

    This was indeed a freeroll.

    He stole the money staked to him for the WSOP Main, and then told everyone that someone else would be buying him into the WSOP Main so he could possibly return their funds, but that was the best they could possibly do, regarding his results.

    So let's look at this realistically.

    If Beyne didn't cash the WSOP Main, the original stakers would have recevied NO MONEY and would have lost what they staked him, even though he had canceled the stake.

    If Beyne cashed the WSOP Main enough to pay the original stakers back, they would receive their money back with no profits.

    This is the exact definition of being freerolled! When someone freerolls you, your best-case scenario is breaking even, and your worst case is losing everything. It's all risk and zero reward.

    This was a freeroll because there was NOT a realistic expectation that these people would ever get paid if he failed to cash the WSOP.

    In the example I gave of my own stake cancellation, it would be a shocking, out-of-character fluke for people not to receive their money back.

    This is the same reason that I am happy to play +EV games against large casinos (knowing I will get paid), but I would never play the same casino games at Chino Rheem's house.
    However, the stake was canceled only because he stole the money that he was given for the stake in the first place! That is not a valid reason for cancellation. In fact, canceling any stake is never appropriate unless the person is either financially secure (and therefore there are no doubts he can refund the money), or the person returns the money immediately.

    Once someone tells me they stole my money I still cut them off and try to recoup what they owe me. I think it is a VERY valid reason to for cancellation. As a backer I DONT WANT this guys action anymore and I WANT the cancellation.



    He stole the money staked to him for the WSOP Main, and then told everyone that someone else would be buying him into the WSOP Main so he could possibly return their funds, but that was the best they could possibly do, regarding his results.

    if this is exactly how it went down I still WANT the cancellation. I try to set a figure before the event starts on what he owes me as a backer. Every staker I have talked to would have tried to handle it this way.

    If Beyne didn't cash the WSOP Main, the original stakers would have recevied NO MONEY and would have lost what they staked him, even though he had canceled the stake.

    This is the tricky part of where everything got confusing with Beyne and his backers. I would have told the guy to go fuck himself if he tried to come up with some deal where I get fucked either way. I would have made it clear to him what I thought he owed me.

    I would have said this- Look beyne, you can have your "new backer". You owe me my % of tournaments cashed in and you owe me the money I put up for the main. Best of luck. And then I would have said if you don't agree to this then we will get an arbitrator and if you don't agree to have an arbitrator then you are done in the poker commuminity.

    Then I would have said to myself why did I trust some jackass?
    You are stating what you would want as a backer, but that's your personal choice. I'm not going to argue whether your approach is correct or incorrect, because that's not what we're debating. As the backer, whether you continue wanting this guy's action is your own personal preference.

    We are talking about what he should legitimately owe in the case that the backers were NOT satisfied with the stake being simply cancelled, which is what occurred in this case.

    You can say, "Look Beyne, you owe me my money back", but that won't produce real money in your pocket. In reality, once a guy like that has stolen your money, there is a high likelihood that you won't see it again.

    That's why he can't simply "cancel" the stake and play on someone else's stake, completely freerolling the first people.

  12. #32
    Bronze pavoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chinamaniac View Post
    if there isn't a second backer and he is lying (which would be hard to prove) then he still owes you this
    Not really. I think in the german pokerstrategy thread he stated that he was staked by a well know reputable MTT pro. So if this guy would come forward it would at least substantiate (not sure if that is the right word) his claims that there was a 2nd backer.


    Edit: His words, cant really quote because the thread is locked and pokerstrategy sucks

    Beyne (V. Geshkenbein):

    The friend is a respected member of the poker community. If it is your wish I can talk with him tomorrow and ask him if he wants his name to be made public.

    Der Freund ist ein respektabler Member der Poker Community. Falls es gewuenscht wird von euch kann ich morgen mit ihm reden und fragen ob er publik gemacht werden will.?

    That never happened as far as I know.

    http://de.pokerstrategy.com/forum/th...tuser=0&page=6
    Last edited by pavoe; 08-01-2013 at 12:54 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by KevinWright View Post
    Not that I believe your story but who the fuck ever gave you permission to use charitable funds for the good of your cock.

  13. #33
    Platinum ShadyJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve-O View Post
    China, what if there really isn't a second backer? What if Beyne still has enough to play the Main Event but he decides he can freeroll these guys, and if he cashes in the Main Event he pays what he owes them from the cancelled stake, and if he bricks it he cries poorhouse and slowpays til his next score?

    Also, would these guys have invested if the Main Event wasn't part of the deal? This is like taking a cruise to Puerto Rico and then as you pull into Florida they tell you it's the last stop but they'll refund the amount of the Puerto Rico portion of the trip.

    Now, if these backers agree that the stake was over (knowing he was going to play the Main) then they deserve nothing more than a refund. So, I agree with China IF we know this is precisely what happened, but would anyone be surprised if he just wanted to play the Main Event as what amounts to a freeroll, at least for a few months?

    This is my point. How do we know this guy didnt didnt just roll some people on some other site, and he knows his name is going to shit anyways. Then he can just say I lost all your money but the only way I can get you back your original buy in is to get staked by a personal friend, and if I do well enough you get your money back. When in reality he never lost the money and he doesnt have a new backer so he gets 100% of his main event winnings minus their amount paid. Talk about a total freeroll.

    Lets say this guy really did lose it all in the pitts or whatever anything outside of what was agreed upon. Take the reversal and say he ran it up to 500kn how much will his backers get? 0.0

    What should have happened is this.

    He goes busto apoligizes then tells them the deal he got for the main (of course he could lie about the actual % but theres no way to no) So he comes out and says Mr.X is backing me for 70% of the total winnings. If i happen to cash Mr X gets his 70% first. Then the remaining funds will be equally divided by % to the original backers. If I happen to run deep and the remaining funds are significantly more then what you originally invested I would like 5% or some % of myself.

    To say he just owes their buy ins back is absurd. He freerolled them with nothing to lose except paying them back. I do agree if he doesnt cash he still owes them their money back.

  14. #34
    Platinum ShadyJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daly View Post
    About a month later, four days prior to Day 1C of the Main (July 4), he comes forward and admits he is broke and has chunked off all of the money (both buyins and winnings). This includes both losing and paying prior debts. He says that he will be unable to afford to play the Main.



    Timing is everything here. So long as he canceled the stake BEFORE the start of the main event then he is in the clear other then the $10K refund.

    If he is playing day 4 and tries to pull this stunt off..... it's a whole different ball of wax.

    This is mindblowin to me. He didnt cancel the stake. He stole their money and lost it.

  15. #35
    Platinum JimmyG_415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pavoe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by chinamaniac View Post
    if there isn't a second backer and he is lying (which would be hard to prove) then he still owes you this
    Not really. I think in the german pokerstrategy thread he stated that he was staked by a well know reputable MTT pro. So if this guy would come forward it would at least substantiate (not sure if that is the right word) his claims that there was a 2nd backer.


    Edit: His words, cant really quote because the thread is locked and pokerstrategy sucks

    Beyne (V. Geshkenbein):

    The friend is a respected member of the poker community. If it is your wish I can talk with him tomorrow and ask him if he wants his name to be made public.

    Der Freund ist ein respektabler Member der Poker Community. Falls es gewuenscht wird von euch kann ich morgen mit ihm reden und fragen ob er publik gemacht werden will.?

    That never happened as far as I know.

    http://de.pokerstrategy.com/forum/th...tuser=0&page=6
    ???
    I don't get what it would matter if he lied or not, as long as it was clearly before the ME started AND he agreed to pay everyone what they were owed (Or I should say owe them an agreed dollar amount), w/ the ME 10k that he lost included.
    Treat it the same way druff did and give them their investment back on that tourney, and pay what he should have on the other ones., and whatever happens from there, you as a backer are no longer a part of.

    Now the fact that he didn't agree to pay anyone and did the ME before this was clear to people, all parties will never be happy.

  16. #36
    Gold Steve-O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadyJ View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Daly View Post
    About a month later, four days prior to Day 1C of the Main (July 4), he comes forward and admits he is broke and has chunked off all of the money (both buyins and winnings). This includes both losing and paying prior debts. He says that he will be unable to afford to play the Main.



    Timing is everything here. So long as he canceled the stake BEFORE the start of the main event then he is in the clear other then the $10K refund.

    If he is playing day 4 and tries to pull this stunt off..... it's a whole different ball of wax.

    This is mindblowin to me. He didnt cancel the stake. He stole their money and lost it.


    canceling the stake requires BOTH sides to say so, not one or the other. A stake is like a lease, you can't break it until the agreement is over unless both parties agree (which appears to be what happened here).

    I do agree with China that the best case scenario for the backers is to settle-up with this guy and end the stake; I just don't agree that this is the "correct" solution, it's simply the easiest and most expedient.
    I write things about poker at my Poker Blog and elsewhere on the Internets

  17. #37
    Diamond chinamaniac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by chinamaniac View Post
    However, the stake was canceled only because he stole the money that he was given for the stake in the first place! That is not a valid reason for cancellation. In fact, canceling any stake is never appropriate unless the person is either financially secure (and therefore there are no doubts he can refund the money), or the person returns the money immediately.

    Once someone tells me they stole my money I still cut them off and try to recoup what they owe me. I think it is a VERY valid reason to for cancellation. As a backer I DONT WANT this guys action anymore and I WANT the cancellation.



    He stole the money staked to him for the WSOP Main, and then told everyone that someone else would be buying him into the WSOP Main so he could possibly return their funds, but that was the best they could possibly do, regarding his results.

    if this is exactly how it went down I still WANT the cancellation. I try to set a figure before the event starts on what he owes me as a backer. Every staker I have talked to would have tried to handle it this way.

    If Beyne didn't cash the WSOP Main, the original stakers would have recevied NO MONEY and would have lost what they staked him, even though he had canceled the stake.

    This is the tricky part of where everything got confusing with Beyne and his backers. I would have told the guy to go fuck himself if he tried to come up with some deal where I get fucked either way. I would have made it clear to him what I thought he owed me.

    I would have said this- Look beyne, you can have your "new backer". You owe me my % of tournaments cashed in and you owe me the money I put up for the main. Best of luck. And then I would have said if you don't agree to this then we will get an arbitrator and if you don't agree to have an arbitrator then you are done in the poker commuminity.

    Then I would have said to myself why did I trust some jackass?
    You are stating what you would want as a backer, but that's your personal choice. I'm not going to argue whether your approach is correct or incorrect, because that's not what we're debating. As the backer, whether you continue wanting this guy's action is your own personal preference.

    We are talking about what he should legitimately owe in the case that the backers were NOT satisfied with the stake being simply cancelled, which is what occurred in this case.

    You can say, "Look Beyne, you owe me my money back", but that won't produce real money in your pocket. In reality, once a guy like that has stolen your money, there is a high likelihood that you won't see it again.

    That's why he can't simply "cancel" the stake and play on someone else's stake, completely freerolling the first people.
    As the backer, whether you continue wanting this guy's action is your own personal preference.

    And IMO anyone wanting more action with a guy who just stole from them is borderline crazy.


    We are talking about what he should legitimately owe in the case that the backers were NOT satisfied with the stake being simply cancelled, which is what occurred in this case
    .

    If he notified them he wasn't using their money because he stole (which he did I believe) then I have no idea why they would still would want part of this stake.

    Every sane person I have discussed this with would have cut the action off at that point and would have let him go play with the other backer. They didn't and they can fight him all day on this.

    Even if they took him to court he could just say "hey I fucked up, I spent all their money paying back people etc..." which is stealing and say he broke their contract" and entered a new one with someone else. Whether he did or didn't is beside the point. The point is he notified them he stole from them and wasn't using their money to play.


    That's why he can't simply "cancel" the stake and play on someone else's stake, completely freerolling the first people

    But that's what he did do. He did do it. I'm not saying he ever did the right thing at all but fact is he notified the group he wasn't playing with their money anymore cause he stole it all
    Last edited by chinamaniac; 08-01-2013 at 05:08 PM.

  18. #38
    Diamond chinamaniac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pavoe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by chinamaniac View Post
    if there isn't a second backer and he is lying (which would be hard to prove) then he still owes you this
    Not really. I think in the german pokerstrategy thread he stated that he was staked by a well know reputable MTT pro. So if this guy would come forward it would at least substantiate (not sure if that is the right word) his claims that there was a 2nd backer.


    Edit: His words, cant really quote because the thread is locked and pokerstrategy sucks

    Beyne (V. Geshkenbein):

    The friend is a respected member of the poker community. If it is your wish I can talk with him tomorrow and ask him if he wants his name to be made public.

    Der Freund ist ein respektabler Member der Poker Community. Falls es gewuenscht wird von euch kann ich morgen mit ihm reden und fragen ob er publik gemacht werden will.?

    That never happened as far as I know.

    http://de.pokerstrategy.com/forum/th...tuser=0&page=6

    Sure it would be easy if someone is well known but at the same time he can just lie again and say "hey this guy wants to remain anonymous"

  19. #39
    Diamond chinamaniac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadyJ View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Daly View Post
    About a month later, four days prior to Day 1C of the Main (July 4), he comes forward and admits he is broke and has chunked off all of the money (both buyins and winnings). This includes both losing and paying prior debts. He says that he will be unable to afford to play the Main.



    Timing is everything here. So long as he canceled the stake BEFORE the start of the main event then he is in the clear other then the $10K refund.

    If he is playing day 4 and tries to pull this stunt off..... it's a whole different ball of wax.

    This is mindblowin to me. He didnt cancel the stake. He stole their money and lost it.
    Right and after he lost it all they all should have set a figure with the guy instead of hoping a thief would make a deep run and pay them a cut after he said he was now playing for someone else

  20. #40
    Cubic Zirconia
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    Hey guys....first of all, what a great forum.

    Hopefully I can be a valuable contributor, as I have obviously alot of experience in the issues discussed in these threads.

    I will be posting my opinion on this particular issue a bit later, but for now, just wanted to say hello.

    Eric "sheets" Haber

     
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