Ultimate Poker is closer to Ultimatebet than you think! Guess who provides their ID verification?

[Dan Druff]

Many criticized Station Casinos' new legal Ultimate Poker room for its name. It's obviously quite similar to Ultimatebet, which is a site nobody should ever want to emulate. Of course, many pointed out that the "Ultimate" part of the name was in reference to the UFC, of which Ultimate Poker is associated. Furthermore, everyone realizes that Ultimate Poker has nothing to do with Ultimatebet, right? It's just a coincidence in naming, right?

Well, kind of.

Ultimate Poker has to verify a few things before anyone can play on the site. One of those items is the player's identity. They need to make sure that the player is of legal age to be playing. They do this by collecting your social security number (scary, right?), birthdate, and name. They then feed that data over to a third-party company for verification.

And that third party company is....

 

That's right... Iovation.

Yes, THAT Iovation.

For those of you that don't know, Iovation was a very early part of UB's software development, and was supposedly in charge of maintaining the site's security. Iovation CEO Greg Pierson has long been suspected of being involved in the holecard cheating. Former UB insider Travis Makar has released lots of documents and recordings that further implicate Pierson in the cheating, even though he was never officially named in any report.

Here is a 2011 article about Greg Pierson, by Haley Hintze: http://haleyspokerblog.blogspot.com/...ing-names.html

Iovation went on to become a fairly large and successful company.

Now they're providing identity verificaiton services for Ultimate Poker.

This is a huge slap in the face to the poker community.

This came out because an Ultimate Poker user received an "Iovation error" when creating their account.

The Ultimate Poker rep on 2+2, "Daxonovitch", responded as follows:

IOVation is our age/identity verification software.

IOVation has zero access to our software, our database, our hands, our company, our location. We send them a "packet" of information (actually through another vendor called Verifi) that contains a player's SSN/Name/Address/DOB and they tell us yes, no, or maybe so. If we get a Maybe So - we'll need to see a scan of your ID. No means you're using a deceased ID or they found that you're actually only 13 years old.

IOVation is licensed by Nevada to be a vendor, and if that changes, we'll change. The Gaming Commission pulls apart your life in one of those arduous and thorough processes I know of.

Again, (and I'm sure I'll be saying this a lot), we have zero connection with Ultimate Bet. We have no people, no software, no tools that they used. In fact - our software has been *deeply* rooted by the lab and by the Gaming Commission. We're proud of our software and our people.

The above quotes came from the following 3 posts, in case you're curious:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=124

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=134

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=383


I do believe that Iovation does not have access to any of Ultimate Poker's records. As described, they send out the user's personal info to Iovation, and the Iovation server responds with "Yes", "No", or "Maybe" regarding the user's identity being correct, and Ultimate Poker takes it from there.

Still, there are two huge problems here:

1) It really, really, really bothers me that Iovation is making money again from the online poker community after what CEO Greg Pierson and VP John Karl did to us.

2) Does anyone here feel comfortable with your social security number being sent to Iovation?! I sure don't. (Too late for me, though.)


It also bothers me that Ultimate Poker is taking the attitude of, "As long as Iovation remains licensed with Nevada, we'll continue using them." That's really giving a big FU to the community that is their player base.

[Dan Druff]

A player named PokerXanadu on 2+2 sent the following letter to the Nevada Gaming Control Board. I think the letter is good, though I have a feeling it won't get anywhere:

Dear Sirs,

It has come to my attention that there is a connection between CAMS, LLC, a company that has received an interactive gaming service provider license from the NGCB, and the largest scandal in the history of online poker. I am concerned that some of the principal persons involved in the scandal are now being given access to player account information through sites licensed in Nevada for interactive gaming.

In 2008, the UltimateBet “superuser” scandal came to light through the investigative work of a number of astute players. Through further investigations, by both the players and eventually the Kahnawakee Gaming Commission, it was found that a “god-mode” was written into the UltimateBet software, allowing those in the know to play on the site while seeing the hole cards of the other players. This was used, starting in 2003, to steal millions of dollars from players.

CAMS, LLC is licensed as an interactive gaming service provider by the NGCB. CAMS, LLC is a vertical market company operated by Verifi, offering the Verifi “Intelligence Suite” of “best-of-breed risk solutions” to the online gaming industry. Currently, UltimatePoker uses the software services of CAMS, LLC for, among other things, age and identity verification when a new player registers an account on the site. Iovation is the third-party vendor to CAMS, LCC that supplies the age and identity verification services to UltimatePoker.

UltimateBet was created in 1999 by Greg Pierson and Jon Karl, who are also two of the co-founders, board members and chief executives of Iovation. In fact, Iovation (originally ieLogic) was part of the software created for UltimateBet operations. Although the hard evidence is sketchy, lost to time and possibly purposeful cover-up, it points to knowledgeable participation of both Pierson and Karl in the UltimateBet scandal, and possibly the siphoning of some of the stolen player funds into the development and operation of Iovation. And ironically, detection of exactly the sort of cheating which took place on UltimateBet was part of the design of the Iovation software.

Although the relationship between UltimatePoker and Iovation is only indirectly through the CAMS, LCC software suite, there is still a sharing of UltimatePoker customer information (SSN/Name/Address/DOB).

Here are some sources which provide further background information on the Ultimate Bet scandal:

http://www.gamblingsites.com/bio/ultimatebet/

http://haleyspokerblog.blogspot.ca/2...ing-names.html

http://www.doubleheadpictures.com

Could you please tell me if the NGCB is aware of this connection to the Ultimate Bet scandal? Was any investigation done of Greg Pierson and Jon Karl as part of the licensing of CAMS, LLC? If not, will a new investigation be started in light of this information?

Any participation by any person in any online poker site scandal should not be overlooked in the licensing of companies for US-regulated online poker. These persons should not be afforded any opportunity to benefit from the players being protected by the Nevada gaming laws and regulations.

Sincerely Yours,

[Dan Druff]

Recall that Gtech/Lottomatica got licensed by the Nevada Gambing Control Board, despite having a rigged online casino game (and this was brought up during the hearing the license them):

http://pokerfraudalert.com/forum/sho...e-casino-games

Gtech/Lottomatica isn't related to Ultimate Poker or the UB scandal to my knowledge, but it just shows how little the NGCB seems to care about past sins in the online gambling world, as long as nobody was ever convicted.

[Steve-O]

good article on it here: http://www.legalpokersites.com/blog/...-players/4017/

[Dan Druff]

good article on it here: http://www.legalpokersites.com/blog/...-players/4017/

That is a good article, and I suggest everyone read it.

It was written by that same PokerXanadu guy from 2+2.

He also included a personal story where AP owner Scott Tom had him falsely listed as a chargeback perpetrator, in order to get revenge on him for exposing information on the STEAMROLLER superuser account.

[The PINO]

Recall that Gtech/Lottomatica got licensed by the Nevada Gambing Control Board, despite having a rigged online casino game (and this was brought up during the hearing the license them):

http://pokerfraudalert.com/forum/sho...e-casino-games

Gtech/Lottomatica isn't related to Ultimate Poker or the UB scandal to my knowledge, but it just shows how little the NGCB seems to care about past sins in the online gambling world, as long as nobody was ever convicted.

Yea, John wrote a huge article that got carried at a ton of poker media outlets about the GTech rigging - he was even asked to be interviewed by the NGC about the article and any other additional insight he could add about them...doesn't look like much happened since the article went up at my site earlier in the year:

http://www.4flush.com/online-casino-...no-games/11698

[The PINO]

good article on it here: http://www.legalpokersites.com/blog/...-players/4017/

That is a good article, and I suggest everyone read it.

It was written by that same PokerXanadu guy from 2+2.

He also included a personal story where AP owner Scott Tom had him falsely listed as a chargeback perpetrator, in order to get revenge on him for exposing information on the STEAMROLLER superuser account.

I think this article was written by 'PokerAddict' on 2+2, a rakeback mod over there? He writes for LPS, 4Flush and QuadJacks frequently.

[Steve-O]

That is a good article, and I suggest everyone read it.

It was written by that same PokerXanadu guy from 2+2.

He also included a personal story where AP owner Scott Tom had him falsely listed as a chargeback perpetrator, in order to get revenge on him for exposing information on the STEAMROLLER superuser account.

I think this article was written by 'PokerAddict' on 2+2, a rakeback mod over there? He writes for LPS, 4Flush and QuadJacks frequently.

yes it was written by John Mehaffy

[Dan Druff]

Are PokerAddict and PokerXanadu the same person? Seems like it from what I was reading, but maybe I'm confused.

EDIT: Guess not. They are just both interested in this, have similar screen names, and are both green 2+2 mods. No wonder I got confused!

[garrett]

Are PokerAddict and PokerXanadu the same person? Seems like it from what I was reading, but maybe I'm confused.

EDIT: Guess not. They are just both interested in this, have similar screen names, and are both green 2+2 mods. No wonder I got confused!

PokerXanadu is a Floridian, Tampa area iirc, is/was PPA rep for FLorida. Knows his stuff obviously. Always enjoyed his Poker Legislation input.

[pavoe]

'Dax @UltimatePoker' the UltimatePoker Site Rep on 2+2 just posted:

As of late Thursday night, May 9th, Ultimate Poker discontinued the use of all services from Iovation. We understand that there were concerns among some of our customers, we hope this makes our players feel more comfortable.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=2595

[BeerAndPoker]

'Dax @UltimatePoker' the UltimatePoker Site Rep on 2+2 just posted:

As of late Thursday night, May 9th, Ultimate Poker discontinued the use of all services from Iovation. We understand that there were concerns among some of our customers, we hope this makes our players feel more comfortable.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=2595

That is great news but it would have been better if they did their homework first before to know who they got in business with.

[Dan Druff]

Hopefully they are not bullshitting us here. They are probably telling the truth.

Sadly despite being able to play on Ultimate Poker, I haven't found any running Limit Holdem games over $2/$4, so I haven't even deposited yet.

[Dan Druff]

I will also say that it's important for UltimatePoker to tell us what solution they're using now, so people can feel confident that Iovation is gone, and that they haven't moved on to an equally shady solution.

[BeerAndPoker]

I will also say that it's important for UltimatePoker to tell us what solution they're using now, so people can feel confident that Iovation is gone, and that they haven't moved on to an equally shady solution.

That's true I wonder what they are running? That rep on 2+2 has been very responsive so far so I wonder if anyone has even asked this over there or via twitter?

I've logged in the site a few times to see the action out of curiosity and the $10/20 lhe seems to run on occasion but the game don't usually last long, however, $5/10 has ran a bunch usually 2-4 handed. I see right now their is a $5/10 lhe game running three handed.

[garrett]

This whole scenario is quite interesting. On one hand it is amazing that Ultimate Poker did not come across this somewhere along the way, on the other, it also shows that some of the ex-cons of the offshore online poker are trying to carve out a place for themselves in the early stages of a U.S legal market. Mr Pierson may be rich, but he didn't fool the internet poker forums very long...

Only so many truly have the type internet gambling backgrounds some of these big companies are looking for, it is not surprising some of the "new" employees of a U.S market, may come with a checkered past.

[Dan Druff]

ultimatepoker.com was once owned by UB.

I wonder how they obtained it:

Here's how it looked in 2006:

http://web.archive.org/web/200609011...matepoker.com/

[Steve-O]

A bit of an old thread, but I had the chance to talk to CAMS CEO Matthew Katz, and he explained the relationship with Iovation and what occurred thusly, "First let me clarify: Iovation was not performing KYC functions, only Device ID."

http://www.onlinepokerreport.com/802...ation-process/

[elevengrover]

A bit of an old thread, but I had the chance to talk to CAMS CEO Matthew Katz, and he explained the relationship with Iovation and what occurred thusly, "First let me clarify: Iovation was not performing KYC functions, only Device ID."

http://www.onlinepokerreport.com/802...ation-process/

The CAMS response is incredibly irresponsible. There is a 3hr recording of the CEO of iovation discussing with other fraud benefactors how to limit the amount of remunerations to defrauded players. The CAMS guy appears to be saying, we are down with using this shady vendor for those who want to use them. If not, say they word and we'll turn them off.

Frequently missed in the iovation conversation is that Pierson had full access to account information at UB, much of which carried forward in their contract at FTP and some which carries forward to even today.

MAYBE you might allow Sergey Brin to have control over your digital life, but I sure as hell do not want the angle shooting asshole who wanted to repay $5m on a $20-40m dollar crime. We have zero understanding how Mr. Pierson is using the enormous dataset compiled over the years.

The correct answer for CAMS is to shelve iovation and make a statement. Beyond that, players need to climb the ladder and start saying they won't play at sites using CAMS if they are good with using criminals to provide their services.

And the device ID argument is a red herring since most of us understood thats what iovation does. Pierson's company is incredibly opaque in what they actually do with data, how and what they gather and what rights you have when forced to accept the reputation managers into your computer.

[Steve-O]

The CAMS response is incredibly irresponsible. There is a 3hr recording of the CEO of iovation discussing with other fraud benefactors how to limit the amount of remunerations to defrauded players. The CAMS guy appears to be saying, we are down with using this shady vendor for those who want to use them. If not, say they word and we'll turn them off.

But your timeline is a bit off. The Makar tapes came out after they cut ties (on May 9th) the first mention of the Makar tapes is the 11th. I take his explanation at face value, on the surface Iovation looks completely legit, and Pierson has never actually been charged with anything. Unless CAMS was plugged into the poker world it would be hard to suspect anything was amiss at Iovation. Once the Makar tapes are released then yes, we have some hard evidence of his involvement.

The correct answer for CAMS is to shelve iovation and make a statement. Beyond that, players need to climb the ladder and start saying they won't play at sites using CAMS if they are good with using criminals to provide their services.

They did, they stopped using Iovation when this broke a couple months ago, and the terminate order seems to have come from UP. The statement was late (I saw a chance to ask him when discussing a different topic) but it's logical and to the point imo. He could have brushed the question off or done a "no-comment" which he did on other questions, but instead he answered it in a pretty straightforward way.

And the device ID argument is a red herring since most of us understood thats what iovation does. Pierson's company is incredibly opaque in what they actually do with data, how and what they gather and what rights you have when forced to accept the reputation managers into your computer.

How is it a red herring when the entire story was they (Iovation) were doing player verification? Device ID and running a KYC Check are two very different things (not that Iovation tracking your smartphone is a good thing). Also, after my talk with CAMS it seems they are all opaque in precisely what they collect and how they use it.