Really disturbing situation on Juicy States Poker, which is the US-facing version of Cake Poker. You should not ever deposit to Juicy Stakes, or your money will disappear.
This was posted by a user on 2+2 named "JuicyBlows" -- obviously an account made for this purpose, but I believe him.
On March 25th, 2014, I received this email to an email address I no longer had registered with my Juicy Stakes account:
At first, I thought this was a phishing attempt as the writing itself didn't seem as professional as the other emails I have received from Juicy Stakes, the fact that it went to an old email account. After about 10 or so emails between Adam, and Juicy Stakes Support, I confirmed this email was in fact legitimate.Dear ------
When we took over Juicy Stakes in October last year our goal was to create a stable and secure poker environment for the Juicy Stakes poker players. A poker environment where players could enjoy playing poker and being able to withdraw their winnings in a timely manner which was not possible with the past owners. We took over all the existing player funds at that time without receiving a cent from the old owners. This take-over made it possible for players to withdraw their funds that were basically lost at the old Juicy Stakes.
For this to work out for the players and for us as a company we need players to play and not only to withdraw their funds. We guarantee to process withdrawals as long as players play and invest a bit in this project.
Since we took over you have basically not played a hand at Juicy Stakes and just withdrawn the maximum amount as often as you could. I am afraid that we cannot continue to process your withdrawals, due to your big balance, without any gaming from your side.
If you want to continue to enjoy our good cash-outs then we will have to agree on a certain amount of FPPs that you have to reach each month to be able to withdraw money. If this is totally out of the question for you then we can always talk to the old owners about transferring back your account and balance to them.
Kind regards,
Adam
Juicy Stakes Poker Team
Some background information:
-I've had an account on Cake/Juicy Stakes since ~June 2011 and used to grind there a lot until recently as action died and my incentive to play was low as withdrawals were small (relative to my bankroll) and slow. My Loyalty Level tier is 19 and I have 183 gold chips, whatever the hell those mean.
-My bankroll currently is just shy of $300k
-American
Upon inquiring how many FPP Adam would want me to earn in order to withdraw, he came up with 2500 FPP. I was outraged as at the time, Juicy Stakes was running a promotion where if you earned 100 FPP, the withdrawal fee, which I think was $100, would be waived. I brought this up in the subsequent email and said that I would be fine with raking 100 FPP/withdrawal to which Adam said no. He stood firm on 2500 despite my emails expressing my disagreement, many of which weren't met with a reply.
I then started asking about what “we can always talk to the old owners about transferring back your account and balance to them” meant. This is what Adam wrote on May 13, 2014:
Close to a month has passed and when I wrote asking what was going on, this is what I received on June 8th, 2014:Dear ------
Moving your account means having the previous owners take over your funds and being responsible for processing, however not on Juicy Stakes. Why we cannot continue to process your withdrawals I have already explained and we have given you an option to still have the withdrawals processed. However, it doesn’t sound like you are interested in that solution?
Looking forward to hearing from you!
Kind regards,
Adam
Juicy Stakes Poker Manager
So pretty much they have me by the balls and are squeezing them every now and then.Hi ----
We gave you an option to still have the withdrawals processed, however, we understood that you were not interested in that solution. So we are working on moving your account to the previous owners.
I will keep you updated on the progress!
Kind regards,
Adam
Juicy Stakes Poker Team
He then decided that he wouldn't transfer the debt to the "old owners" (LOL), and wrote this back to JuicyStakes:
Adam,
If the previous owners are actually capable and willing to send me my money then I would be content with such a solution. Would this actually be the case? Typically when a poker room is bought - or any business for that matter - the assets as well as the liabilities of that business are transferred over to the new owners.
I am interested in a solution of continuing to play and process withdrawals on Juicy Stakes, but as I've said repeatedly 2500 FPP per week or withdrawal is completely unreasonable. I question whether any current players on Juicy Stakes are getting 2500 FPP per week, and where or how you came up with such a number.
I suspect that current and potential Juicy Stakes players would not be happy to hear that certain accounts are being targeted and held to a standard of 2500 FPP per withdrawals. Nobody would want to play under that restriction.
If the previous owners are willing to take my balance and let me start withdrawing it, then great. If not, I ask again that you reconsider the totally unreasonable mark of 2500 FPP per withdrawal.
He then concluded with, "In the meantime, I'm still torn as to whether or not I'm going to play there, because I really do want my money, but if I play there for the 2500, I feel like a prostitute or something, doing something I hate, just for the money."
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Basically, the guy has $300,000 of funds on JuicyStakes, and they are not letting him withdraw it unless he generates 2500 FPPs PER WEEK, which is the equivalent of $300 or so in rake per week. Even if he does that, he can only withdraw at $1k/week, meaning in the best case scenario, he will be forced to play there for 6 years regularly in order to withdraw his money!
As is par for the course on 2+2, he received a LOT of really stupid (albeit well-meaning) advice. This advice included:
- Get a lawyer and see if you can commence legal proceedings against the current owners.
- Accept the fact that you have little choice, and start playing regularly on there. It's your only way to get your money off.
- Ask JuicyStakes if they will accept a much-reduced settlement in lieu of having to play there, such as accepting a $220k lump sum (and letting them keep $80k) instead of having to play.
- Dump chips to someone on another skin, where withdrawals are easier.
ALL OF THE ABOVE ADVICE IS TERRIBLE, and I will explain why.
First off, there is no doubt that Juicy Stakes is being highly unethical here. The current owners claim that this player's balance is from the previous regime at Juicy Stakes, and that they bought the company without buying the player debt. That's garbage. This can only be done if the players are informed of this as soon as the sale occurs -- basically that their old money on the site is worthless or requires certain terms to be worth anything. Juicy Stakes wants to have the best of both worlds. They want existing money to be used to play on the site in order to generate new money, but they don't want players to know that the existing money they're playing with is worthless -- at least to the current owner of the money.
But let's put that aside. This is apparently Juicy Stakes' new requirement (even if not publicly stated) -- that large balances from the "old regime" are going to require "play through" in order to be cashed out.
But why is Juicy Stakes requiring this? Are they broke? Or is there some other reason?
I think it's because they are broke AND they are trying to extort players with existing balances to work as unpaid props.
As any poker site operator will tell you, the biggest cost of running a site is marketing. It's easy to slap up poker software on the web, and the server/internet costs are minimal. The real expense comes from the attempt to get games going. If people come on your site and see zero games running, they will close the software and never deposit. Existing players generate new players.
This is why old-school brick-and-mortar poker rooms employed "prop" players (and some still do). "Prop" players draw a salary to sit and play games with their own money during a pre-set schedule. This guarantees running games, and in turn draws players who will be raked, thus justifying the expense of hiring the props. Some online rooms in the past hired props by giving them 100% rakeback (Absolute Poker was known for doing this).
Juicy Stakes isn't just broke -- they are also running a dead site. They don't want to pay props. Instead, they are trying to force those with big balances to work FOR FREE as props for months or years to come, simply to have access to their own money!
It is likely that the owners of Juicy Stakes have very little money, and cannot to afford to pay someone $300k. Even if they could afford it, they know he will simply take his money and never play on the site, so they don't see that as a worthy use of their assets.
Their plan is to literally force him to get games going (and keep them going) if he wants his money. If he rakes $300, that means others will have also raked, and the $1000 withdrawal they will pay him will have been covered by the rake generated.
Of course, that is no guarantee Juicy Stakes will make money. What if he gets games going, but only plays against other regulars in the same boat? Juicy Stakes won't make any money, even if they rake thousands, because they need new depositors to put money on the site and lose it (or have it all raked off) in order to be able to afford to pay anyone. Juicy Stakes is hoping that the games running by these forced-props will encourage new players (preferably recreational ones) to deposit, thus infusing new money into the site. However, if the games only attract regulars with existing money, Juicy Stakes will be in the same boat (broke), and will be unable to keep their obligation to let this guy keep withdrawing, even if he sticks to their 2500 FPP/week terms.
And what can he do about it even if this happens? Nothing.
As one smart person on 2+2 put it, "That's their promise right now, but they will keep moving the ball every time you think you are about to see your money."
EXACTLY.
So let's revisit the advice that this guy was given:
- "Accept the fact that you have little choice, and start playing regularly on there. It's your only way to get your money off." -- NO. This is a desperate attempt by Juicy Stakes to force you into unpaid propping for them, in the faint hopes that this will somehow attract new depositors. This is unlikely to happen to the degree they need to be able to pay you. You will spend a LOT of time and energy generating this rake, and you will unlikely get paid much, if at all. Do not back down here and do what they are demanding, as you will be made into a chump.
- "Ask JuicyStakes if they will accept a much-reduced settlement in lieu of having to play there, such as accepting a $220k lump sum (and letting them keep $80k) instead of having to play." -- WON'T WORK. They want unpaid props. They aren't looking to deduct a percentage of the money, even a large one. It is likely that even a ridiculously low settlement offer (such as $50k for the entire $300k balance) would be rejected, as they don't have the money, and see no value in paying someone who will leave and never come back.
- "Dump chips to someone on another skin, where withdrawals are easier." -- WON'T WORK. The other skins are very wary of chip dumping, and they probably know that they will never get paid by Juicy Stakes in such a situation. Even if you stage a "realistic" heads-up match where you lose against a friend, you'll never get away with it, especially given all the attention they have been showing your account.
- "Get a lawyer and see if you can commence legal proceedings against the current owners." -- USELESS. You will just waste your money. They are not a US company, and by being a US-facing poker site, they have no problem criminally breaking US law, so they aren't exactly worried about a civil lawsuit. Even attempting to sue them in their home country will result in failure, as local laws may allow them to worm out of it, and collecting from them in the case of a victory will be nearly impossible. In short, do NOT bother with an attorney here. It is a waste of time and money.
So what are your options, then? Just give up?
No. This story has played out time and time again with shady online casinos and poker rooms. You aren't the first person to be cheated in this way, and you definitely won't be the last.
Most likely you are screwed and won't see your money. However, there are two strategies you can employ that might have a degree of success. Both carry some risk, so beware.
1) Play hardball with them. You already exposed them on 2+2, which was the right thing to start. But you can take it further. E-mail "Adam" and tell him that you refuse to accept this and will make this matter public EVERYWHERE, to where they will never get any regular players on their site again. Give them a demand that they continue processing your withdrawals before you will start spending time and money publicizing this situation to let the world know about the fact that they don't pay their customers. This comes with a risk of angering them to the point where they completely close your account and refuse to pay you at all. However, doing this could cause a further PR nightmare, so they might be afraid to do that.
2) Engage in ring game chip dumping. While I advised above AGAINST chip dumping, this is a different and more effective strategy. To understand it, I need to tell you the story of "SteveDaPimp" from West Virginia, of the former neverwinpoker community. Steve hacked players' accounts through their AOL e-mail addresses, reset their poker passwords, and then gained access to the accounts. Steve typically didn't have an exit strategy. That is, he was good at getting access to players' accounts, but had no way to get the money off and into his own hands. He knew that dumping to a friend's account wouldn't work, as any winnings would be reversed before he could withdraw it. Therefore, Steve decided just to "joyride" most of the accounts he hacked. For example, he would hack an account with a $80k balance, and then sit in $25/$50 NL. Steve would play recklessly, knowing it wasn't his money, and win or lose he wouldn't be able to withdraw any of it. Steve enjoyed doing this because he got a thrill out of playing high stakes poker. Maddeningly, once you got access back to an account compromised by Steve, there was no recourse. While he may have lost your entire $80k, he lost it to legitimate players -- ones who honestly believed they were playing someone drunk or on tilt rather than an account hacker. So the opposing players beat your account fair and square, even if it was Steve operating it. It wasn't fair to confiscate the money from the players who won, just as the police could not confiscate money you won from a bank robber in a live game. In this Juicy Stakes situation, the player would be best advised to sit at REAL cash games and play super-recklessly against regulars from the other skins. You will need to agree with at least one of them (preferably more than one) to split the proceeds later. That is, don't dump the money only to your accomplices, but just play poorly enough to where everyone gets a piece of it. You will obviously be throwing away part of your balance, but you will at least get back some of it from your accomplices. This could easily work because it will be difficult for the other skins to confiscate the "dumped" money from EVERYONE at the table. It won't be clear who is your accomplice and who isn't, and that will be your advantage. This, of course, comes with the risk that the skins will refuse to honor any of this money lost, and will confiscate it from all winners.
If I was in this spot myself, I would opt for #2. Research who you know and trust that plays on other skins that pay people (not sure which skins are legit these days, but find that out for yourself), and then put a plan together. It's really your only hope.
Good luck.
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Originally Posted by Druff
