Secret Service agents come to harass online poker player?

[Dan Druff]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...today-1189290/

Not sure if I buy this story.

This guy might be making up the whole thing for attention.

What do you guys think?

(Thanks to BUBBLES for pointing this 2+2 thread out to me.)

[BUBBLES]

Im not sure if the guy was bullshitting or not, but it was a good read.

It would be good if the guy would come on radio and tell his story.

[BetCheckBet]

Would never believe but OP is a legit poster. Its not out of line for FBI to pull this shit on small guys from time to time, so it is possible. I wouldn't believe anything the FBI agents said though.

[Steve-O]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...today-1189290/

Not sure if I buy this story.

This guy might be making up the whole thing for attention.

What do you guys think?

(Thanks to BUBBLES for pointing this 2+2 thread out to me.)

It's possible. The Secret Service has under its jurisdictional umbrella counterfeiting (which most people know) and electronic crimes dealing with money and infrastructure (a lesser known duty) whether domestic or international. It's likely they are simply looking to strengthen their case against a payment processor and could care less about the poker player himself --although they are able to pass on anything to the IRS.

[408Mike]

I read it and something fishy- no way the SS agent calls op, recites a bunch of personal info, then after agreeing to meet at the police station is suddenly at dudes apartment. Sorry, that's not how things like this go down. He may get a phone call but I doubt it, a knock at the door is much more likely. Last the SS are not suddenly going to be relieved because the guy says he is a pro poker player, why would they since presumably they knew already? Did they not say he was part of a larger investigation into online poker? Why would they bother with insinuations about the wires being connected to terrorism and/or kiddy porn networks when the investigation (according to them) into online poker was the reason they had contacted him in the first place?

I call bullshit.

[Steve-O]

I'm making my way through this thread now and it amazes me how little people know about the Secret Service or interrogations for that matter. So many people are saying how weird some of the OP's statements are, such as them knowing everything about him EXCEPT that he plays online poker. Well, they know, they want him to say it so they have a factual statement to base his other answers on. The way they led him into the questioning is classic: start off with child porn and terrorism to frighten the hell out of him so he comes out with the information they want. If he had said something like I don't know anything about these payment processors they know he is lying.

I agree with the person in Post #21 who said they were probably trying to figure out if OP was simply one of the poker players that had done business with the payment processor or was involved in something else. Judging by his statement of have $45k locked up on UB it's likely the checks he was getting weren't for $500. The SS is probably looking into anyone who recieved payments above say $10,000 from the payment processors, which would explain why there list is only 700 deep.

A little advice for anyone who has the never talk to the cops attitude: The secret service and FBI are not cops per se, and if you decide to be a hardass when they are questioning you about terrorism you could wind up MIA for three weeks.

[Steve-O]

I read it and something fishy- no way the SS agent calls op, recites a bunch of personal info, then after agreeing to meet at the police station is suddenly at dudes apartment. Sorry, that's not how things like this go down. He may get a phone call but I doubt it, a knock at the door is much more likely. Last the SS are not suddenly going to be relieved because the guy says he is a pro poker player, why would they since presumably they knew already? Did they not say he was part of a larger investigation into online poker? Why would they bother with insinuations about the wires being connected to terrorism and/or kiddy porn networks when the investigation (according to them) into online poker was the reason they had contacted him in the first place?

I call bullshit.

Actually this seems credible to me. Their goal is to throw you off balance, so they call you, get a track on your phone, see that you went to your apartment and call you again; total control thing: we know everything now cooperate.

The one thing that doesn't make sense (but isn't enough to discredit OP's claim) is that they called him to begin with --as you stated. Generally they would just show up.

I still don't know if this is true, but it's plausible.

[TheTemplar]

I saw this earlier on 2+2 as well, and I will say now that I know various people who have both been question by the Secret Service, and the FBI. Someone said it before that they were shocked at how many people know very little about the Secret Service. I absolutely agree.

The people I know were questioned and then later found guilty of Money Laundering and Tax Evasion. The way that the majority of them were held for questioning was pretty much out of a movie. Your walking down the street and a car pulls up, or two guys come around the corner and they push you into their van. On the other hand, two guys that were pretty much no threat to anyone who has actually thrown a punch in their life, were called numerous times just like the OP.

As far as the story having truth to it, the op is a pretty reputable poster in that community. I really simply do not see anyone going to 2+2 and announcing this to the general public, after they had a house visit from the Secret Service.

It really seems odd, but in this day in age anything can happen. The part where the payment processor was funding terrorism? Well that's absolutely something that may have happened. I mean someone could have funded their account with hundreds of thousands of dollars and dumped it to an associate. Easy as that.

[Yebsite]

best post ever...

[408Mike]

I read it and something fishy- no way the SS agent calls op, recites a bunch of personal info, then after agreeing to meet at the police station is suddenly at dudes apartment. Sorry, that's not how things like this go down. He may get a phone call but I doubt it, a knock at the door is much more likely. Last the SS are not suddenly going to be relieved because the guy says he is a pro poker player, why would they since presumably they knew already? Did they not say he was part of a larger investigation into online poker? Why would they bother with insinuations about the wires being connected to terrorism and/or kiddy porn networks when the investigation (according to them) into online poker was the reason they had contacted him in the first place?

I call bullshit.

Actually this seems credible to me. Their goal is to throw you off balance, so they call you, get a track on your phone, see that you went to your apartment and call you again; total control thing: we know everything now cooperate.

The one thing that doesn't make sense (but isn't enough to discredit OP's claim) is that they called him to begin with --as you stated. Generally they would just show up.

I still don't know if this is true, but it's plausible.

Plausible but unlikely as hell. I remember a young girl (had to be 11 or something) posted on myspace some kind of threat to the president and within a day or two SS showed up to her front door. When they get involved, shit's pretty serious, it's not like getting a phone call serious, it's like KNOCK KNOCK at an inconvenient time serious.

You have some valid points about the questioning protocol, and you may be right. My instincts though also say HE CAN'T BE THE ONLY ONE. Hell the DEA has no problem setting up raids all across the united states for one big morning, OP would certainly not have been the first or last. We should be getting hits on all poker forums from people flipping out. Dead giveaway to fictitiousness I think.

And you are right, being billybadass to the FBI,,CIA,,PFA etc is definitely not a smart idea, for any reason.

[Steve-O]

Actually this seems credible to me. Their goal is to throw you off balance, so they call you, get a track on your phone, see that you went to your apartment and call you again; total control thing: we know everything now cooperate.

The one thing that doesn't make sense (but isn't enough to discredit OP's claim) is that they called him to begin with --as you stated. Generally they would just show up.

I still don't know if this is true, but it's plausible.

Plausible but unlikely as hell. I remember a young girl (had to be 11 or something) posted on myspace some kind of threat to the president and within a day or two SS showed up to her front door. When they get involved, shit's pretty serious, it's not like getting a phone call serious, it's like KNOCK KNOCK at an inconvenient time serious.

You have some valid points about the questioning protocol, and you may be right. My instincts though also say HE CAN'T BE THE ONLY ONE. Hell the DEA has no problem setting up raids all across the united states for one big morning, OP would certainly not have been the first or last. We should be getting hits on all poker forums from people flipping out. Dead giveaway to fictitiousness I think.

And you are right, being billybadass to the FBI,,CIA,,PFA etc is definitely not a smart idea, for any reason.

I'll play devil's advocate and say he might be the FIRST person contacted, or he may be the only one who didn't understand the subtle hints about not talking about their visit (which if true had to be thrown out there) and took the "tell your friends not to do it" bit as fair game to announce his visit by the SS.

[408Mike]

Plausible but unlikely as hell. I remember a young girl (had to be 11 or something) posted on myspace some kind of threat to the president and within a day or two SS showed up to her front door. When they get involved, shit's pretty serious, it's not like getting a phone call serious, it's like KNOCK KNOCK at an inconvenient time serious.

You have some valid points about the questioning protocol, and you may be right. My instincts though also say HE CAN'T BE THE ONLY ONE. Hell the DEA has no problem setting up raids all across the united states for one big morning, OP would certainly not have been the first or last. We should be getting hits on all poker forums from people flipping out. Dead giveaway to fictitiousness I think.

And you are right, being billybadass to the FBI,,CIA,,PFA etc is definitely not a smart idea, for any reason.

I'll play devil's advocate and say he might be the FIRST person contacted, or he may be the only one who didn't understand the subtle hints about not talking about their visit (which if true had to be thrown out there) and took the "tell your friends not to do it" bit as fair game to announce his visit by the SS.

Plausible, but most internet players are failry tech savvy and realize they can easily vpn or tor their way online and get the word out without getting caught for doing so. I just don't see any possible way there aren't WAY more people getting hit. Think too that most people have family/friends they live and stay with and trust me, visits from government official looking types will generate a lot of attention. Facebook hits, possibly media etc. We would hear something.

[Steve-O]

I'll play devil's advocate and say he might be the FIRST person contacted, or he may be the only one who didn't understand the subtle hints about not talking about their visit (which if true had to be thrown out there) and took the "tell your friends not to do it" bit as fair game to announce his visit by the SS.

Plausible, but most internet players are failry tech savvy and realize they can easily vpn or tor their way online and get the word out without getting caught for doing so. I just don't see any possible way there aren't WAY more people getting hit. Think too that most people have family/friends they live and stay with and trust me, visits from government official looking types will generate a lot of attention. Facebook hits, possibly media etc. We would hear something.

If the SS vistied me and left on good terms I wouldn't tell a soul

[408Mike]

Plausible, but most internet players are failry tech savvy and realize they can easily vpn or tor their way online and get the word out without getting caught for doing so. I just don't see any possible way there aren't WAY more people getting hit. Think too that most people have family/friends they live and stay with and trust me, visits from government official looking types will generate a lot of attention. Facebook hits, possibly media etc. We would hear something.

If the SS vistied me and left on good terms I wouldn't tell a soul

On a case by case basis not everyone would be so calm, additionally like I said people will see/hear about the visit and in todays age news spreads FAST. Poker player being visited by the Secret Service would be a huge story. Just my opinion though, as always.

[Steve-O]

Skallagrim
PPA Board Member/LSN Dir




Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: It's a PPA post only if so stated
Posts: 5,566 Re: Secret Service agents came to my residence today

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not going to post an opinion here, but I think pointing out a few very easily verified facts may help inform some of the very interesting opinions already posted:

1) It has been revealed in public affidavits filed by the government in Court (in support of seizure warrants) that Federal Agents, including Treasury agents, have frequently interviewed poker players to verify that the funds they obtained from a specific processor under investigation were, in fact, payments from poker sites.

2) The DOJ has stated before Congress that no existing FEDERAL law makes MERE PLAYING of online poker a crime; all FEDERAL criminal offenses are targeted at those "in the business of betting and wagering" and this has long been held not to include MERE PLAYERS.

3) Being a "mere player" is, however, not a defense. It is the cut off point between who violates the Federal law and who does not. What activity qualifies as being more than a "mere player" can be subject to debate.

4) STATE LAWS ARE A VERY DIFFERENT MATTER. EACH STATE IS DIFFERENT. In some states it violates state law to play online poker.

5) The LEGAL definition of gambling is not the same as the usual definition or the Websters' definition. The LEGAL definition requires that wagering money be done on something "not under one's control or influence" or when participating in a "game of chance." A "game of chance" is usually defined as a game where chance predominates in determining the outcome; a game where even if skill is a factor, it is a factor that cannot overcome the chance factor. Many scholars and lawyers believe poker is not a "game of chance" under the LEGAL definition, is clearly a game where your acts influence the outcome, and is therefore not gambling as LEGALLY defined (in most places - there are variations in the definition in some places)

6) When interviewing someone with respect to an investigation, it is not illegal for the officer to lie to you about facts. Indeed it is a rather common tactic to test an interviewee's reliability (if that is in question). If you lie to the officer, however, you have committed a crime.

Skallagrim

Seems to take this from plausible to probable

[408Mike]

Skallagrim
PPA Board Member/LSN Dir




Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: It's a PPA post only if so stated
Posts: 5,566 Re: Secret Service agents came to my residence today

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not going to post an opinion here, but I think pointing out a few very easily verified facts may help inform some of the very interesting opinions already posted:

1) It has been revealed in public affidavits filed by the government in Court (in support of seizure warrants) that Federal Agents, including Treasury agents, have frequently interviewed poker players to verify that the funds they obtained from a specific processor under investigation were, in fact, payments from poker sites.

2) The DOJ has stated before Congress that no existing FEDERAL law makes MERE PLAYING of online poker a crime; all FEDERAL criminal offenses are targeted at those "in the business of betting and wagering" and this has long been held not to include MERE PLAYERS.

3) Being a "mere player" is, however, not a defense. It is the cut off point between who violates the Federal law and who does not. What activity qualifies as being more than a "mere player" can be subject to debate.

4) STATE LAWS ARE A VERY DIFFERENT MATTER. EACH STATE IS DIFFERENT. In some states it violates state law to play online poker.

5) The LEGAL definition of gambling is not the same as the usual definition or the Websters' definition. The LEGAL definition requires that wagering money be done on something "not under one's control or influence" or when participating in a "game of chance." A "game of chance" is usually defined as a game where chance predominates in determining the outcome; a game where even if skill is a factor, it is a factor that cannot overcome the chance factor. Many scholars and lawyers believe poker is not a "game of chance" under the LEGAL definition, is clearly a game where your acts influence the outcome, and is therefore not gambling as LEGALLY defined (in most places - there are variations in the definition in some places)

6) When interviewing someone with respect to an investigation, it is not illegal for the officer to lie to you about facts. Indeed it is a rather common tactic to test an interviewee's reliability (if that is in question). If you lie to the officer, however, you have committed a crime.

Skallagrim

Seems to take this from plausible to probable

"I agree with the person in Post #21 who said they were probably trying to figure out if OP was simply one of the poker players that had done business with the payment processor or was involved in something else. Judging by his statement of have $45k locked up on UB it's likely the checks he was getting weren't for $500. The SS is probably looking into anyone who recieved payments above say $10,000 from the payment processors, which would explain why there list is only 700 deep."

In conjunction with your post above, this all definitely seems more believable now, at least to me. The SS going around to see who is who as they already suspect a processor of funding very illegal things on the side would make a lot of sense. Still a bit iffy, but much more probable now I agree.

I guess poker players should have nothing to fear anyway right? So this story is actually kind of not important, though it seems like a big deal. Unless you have guns bombs and child porn stashed around your house or something.

[badbilly32]

didnt look at all the replies so im not sure if this has been posted or not but unless theres been some kind of law passed recently, the secret service has only 2 jobs 1) protect the president/v.p. etc etc and find counterfit money, im 99.99999 percent sure they have no jurisdiction over kiddie porn/terrorism/ileagal gambling, as amatter of fact im pretty sure d.o.j. has jurisdiction over kiddie porn and gambling(pretty sure they have individual strike force type units for both, and terrorism surely falls under homeland security) i highly doubt it was secret service, although i could be wrong

[Steve-O]

didnt look at all the replies so im not sure if this has been posted or not but unless theres been some kind of law passed recently, the secret service has only 2 jobs 1) protect the president/v.p. etc etc and find counterfit money, im 99.99999 percent sure they have no jurisdiction over kiddie porn/terrorism/ileagal gambling, as amatter of fact im pretty sure d.o.j. has jurisdiction over kiddie porn and gambling(pretty sure they have individual strike force type units for both, and terrorism surely falls under homeland security) i highly doubt it was secret service, although i could be wrong

After 9/11 they were put in charge of electronic crimes including financial.

[threeup3down]

The way that the majority of them were held for questioning was pretty much out of a movie. Your walking down the street and a car pulls up, or two guys come around the corner and they push you into their van

Yeah, that never happened.

didnt look at all the replies so im not sure if this has been posted or not but unless theres been some kind of law passed recently, the secret service has only 2 jobs 1) protect the president/v.p. etc etc and find counterfit money, im 99.99999 percent sure they have no jurisdiction over kiddie porn/terrorism/ileagal gambling

Congrats you're super confident about something you know nothing about. Secret service is involved in a plethora of fraud cases and years ago where the driving force of an investigation that shutdown the two biggest credit card fraud rings (carderplanet & shadowcrew)

[badbilly32]

Yeah, that never happened.

didnt look at all the replies so im not sure if this has been posted or not but unless theres been some kind of law passed recently, the secret service has only 2 jobs 1) protect the president/v.p. etc etc and find counterfit money, im 99.99999 percent sure they have no jurisdiction over kiddie porn/terrorism/ileagal gambling

Congrats you're super confident about something you know nothing about. Secret service is involved in a plethora of fraud cases and years ago where the driving force of an investigation that shutdown the two biggest credit card fraud rings (carderplanet & shadowcrew)

which part of kiddie porn/ terrorism/gambling was i wrong about?where do those things fall under s.s. jurisdiction pretty sure the credit card fruad falls under the counterfit money part of there job...

but hey thanx for trying to be a condecending cunt, it worked out well for your argument/putting me in my place