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Thread: Event #6 June 1 $1500 Millionaire Maker NL Holdem

  1. #121
    Platinum Lord of the Fraud's Avatar
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    I just tweeted this to Matt Glantz

    @MattGlantz 9 handed blinds 800/1600/200 ante, bubble just broke and you have 18k with A4ss utg. Do you fold or shove? Answer appreciated.

    His simple reply

    easy fold

    Doesn't necessarily prove anything, but I know the guy has many years of live high limit NLH tournament play behind him, so his opinion has to carry at least some weight?


    Seriously not looking to prove Druff or anyone else wrong over this, but its a very common scenario in NL and if there is a leak that can be fixed, then the wsop would be a good place to get it fixed. That's if it needs fixing at all.
    http://pnimg.net/w/articles-attachments/1/4c2/74d75c36d2.jpg

  2. #122

    Event #6 June 1 $1500 Millionaire Maker NL Holdem

    Tweet from: CursedDiamonds (Brendan)

    @ToddWitteles Better now than in a few hours. Get the runbad out now. Also, #PFA10 rather than #PFA06. Now go fuck 'em up! #TeamSpa

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of the Fraud View Post
    I just tweeted this to Matt Glantz




    His simple reply

    easy fold

    Doesn't necessarily prove anything, but I know the guy has many years of live high limit NLH tournament play behind him, so his opinion has to carry at least some weight?


    Seriously not looking to prove Druff or anyone else wrong over this, but its a very common scenario in NL and if there is a leak that can be fixed, then the wsop would be a good place to get it fixed. That's if it needs fixing at all.
    Thats so broad of a question im suprised he would answer. What one player would do in that spot has more to do with his table, and table image, not only his stack but the other stacks. Is everyone 200 bbs deep except druff? Not to mention alot of top tournament players especially live ones dont have a great understanding of ICM and short game shoving ranges. Theres a reason I grinded all those super turbos.

    Shoving there with Druffs Im sure nit image cant be too bad and I'd shove it no doubt. At this point your playing for top 3 where all the money is.

  4. #124
    Platinum Lord of the Fraud's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadyJ View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of the Fraud View Post
    I just tweeted this to Matt Glantz




    His simple reply




    Doesn't necessarily prove anything, but I know the guy has many years of live high limit NLH tournament play behind him, so his opinion has to carry at least some weight?


    Seriously not looking to prove Druff or anyone else wrong over this, but its a very common scenario in NL and if there is a leak that can be fixed, then the wsop would be a good place to get it fixed. That's if it needs fixing at all.
    Thats so broad of a question im suprised he would answer. What one player would do in that spot has more to do with his table, and table image, not only his stack but the other stacks. Is everyone 200 bbs deep except druff? Not to mention alot of top tournament players especially live ones dont have a great understanding of ICM and short game shoving ranges. Theres a reason I grinded all those super turbos.

    Shoving there with Druffs Im sure nit image cant be too bad and I'd shove it no doubt. At this point your playing for top 3 where all the money is.


    I'm not sure there have been many spots in mtt's where I've thought shoving A4 utg with 11bb into a field of 9 was a good idea. The risk of getting called is far to great as a shorties table image goes completely out the window once they're around the 10BB mark. People are itching to snap you off with a much wider range. He also admitted to opening pots with light holdings that he had to fold to a re-raise. So doubt his image was that nitty anyway.

    And the #1 goal always has to be top 3. But you'd stand a better chance of that with folding the A4 rather than shoving it (imo).
    http://pnimg.net/w/articles-attachments/1/4c2/74d75c36d2.jpg

  5. #125
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    The A4 discussion is a good one, and I see both sides of it.

    To be honest, I almost threw it away myself, and felt uneasy raising it, but I hated the thought of taking the blinds and being reduced to under 15k, and then facing perhaps another 7 hands of junk (or mediocre hands facing raises in front of them).

    I am still not sure if I did the right thing or not. Part of me thinks the A4 was correct, part of me thinks it was incorrect, and part of me thinks it's really marginal where it could have gone either way.

    The one thing I have to disagree with here, however, are the people who are telling me to "not let myself get to an M<5 situation in the first place".

    Easier said than done.

    You are probably incorrectly picturing me being the only 40-year-old at the table, full of a bunch of aggro internet kids who are raping the blinds while I wait for premium hands.

    That's not at all the scenario I faced at any of my tables.

    I was actually younger than average, and most of the players tended to really have it when they raised. I'm not saying that they always had premium hands, but there was very little junk-ante-and-blind stealing going on, except in the obvious spots from late position. In addition, everyone was pretty call-happy. I would see this scenario unfold fairly often at this stage of the tournament:

    Middle position raises.

    SB with a short-middle stack shoves all in.

    Middle position calls.

    Middle position turns over QK and SB turns over 33.

    Then the board runs out, and one of these two finds themselves with a fairly big pot.

    I hate both of these plays (the 33 shove and the QK call) for obvious reasons.

    But I see it again and again, and I remind myself that shoving junk over on people's preflop raises will tend to get you a call much more often than you'd expect.

    At the same time, people didn't call as light if they hadn't entered the pot yet. That's why I felt the A4 had a fair chance of stealing from UTG.

    Anyway, if I'm finding myself with junk after junk and am seeing early and middle position raises in front of me, no, I'm not wasting my chips playing back at them with shit, unless I'm getting the feeling that they are stealing blinds too often. With most of these recreational and semi-recreational players in these fields, that isn't typically happening.

    I also don't believe I have a nitty table image. I think the image I project is right in the middle between loose and nitty.

  6. #126
    Silver 4BET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    The A4 discussion is a good one, and I see both sides of it.

    To be honest, I almost threw it away myself, and felt uneasy raising it, but I hated the thought of taking the blinds and being reduced to under 15k, and then facing perhaps another 7 hands of junk (or mediocre hands facing raises in front of them).

    I am still not sure if I did the right thing or not. Part of me thinks the A4 was correct, part of me thinks it was incorrect, and part of me thinks it's really marginal where it could have gone either way.

    The one thing I have to disagree with here, however, are the people who are telling me to "not let myself get to an M<5 situation in the first place".

    Easier said than done.

    You are probably incorrectly picturing me being the only 40-year-old at the table, full of a bunch of aggro internet kids who are raping the blinds while I wait for premium hands.

    That's not at all the scenario I faced at any of my tables.

    I was actually younger than average, and most of the players tended to really have it when they raised. I'm not saying that they always had premium hands, but there was very little junk-ante-and-blind stealing going on, except in the obvious spots from late position. In addition, everyone was pretty call-happy. I would see this scenario unfold fairly often at this stage of the tournament:

    Middle position raises.

    SB with a short-middle stack shoves all in.

    Middle position calls.

    Middle position turns over QK and SB turns over 33.

    Then the board runs out, and one of these two finds themselves with a fairly big pot.

    I hate both of these plays (the 33 shove and the QK call) for obvious reasons.

    But I see it again and again, and I remind myself that shoving junk over on people's preflop raises will tend to get you a call much more often than you'd expect.

    At the same time, people didn't call as light if they hadn't entered the pot yet. That's why I felt the A4 had a fair chance of stealing from UTG.

    Anyway, if I'm finding myself with junk after junk and am seeing early and middle position raises in front of me, no, I'm not wasting my chips playing back at them with shit, unless I'm getting the feeling that they are stealing blinds too often. With most of these recreational and semi-recreational players in these fields, that isn't typically happening.

    I also don't believe I have a nitty table image. I think the image I project is right in the middle between loose and nitty.
    You make some good points and this is why I almost always avoid discussing hands on online, You are at the table we are not and I am more of a feel player then numbers but shoving the a4 kinda hand up front has never worked out well for me, So personally I would fold the hand but I get the fact you don't want to fold down so low when you ship they call in 3 spots but on the other side of the coin you may have picked up 2 big hands out of the next 3 or 4 and had 100k, We have all seen how fast some one can go up and down in the donkaments.
    -Allergic to the struggle

  7. #127
    I would have folded this hand in this position....for big buy-in donkaments, I try to have a 10-12xBB "go" rule. Anything above, I'll fold marginal hands because survival is so key to these things.

  8. #128
    Serial Blogger BeerAndPoker's Avatar
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    A4s UTG is dominated too much having to go through a lot of players to get a walk which is what you'd prefer or a call by something like KQ,etc.. I would probably push it most times in MP though.

    The thing is your not folding out hands like A10+, and most pairs will call too. If this was pushed before the bubble you probably wouldn't get called as wide but you still have too many players to get through, however, after the bubble breaks people on stacks like 20bbs or less are going to call wider looking to improve their position to go deep or just end it with pay jumps that aren't very significant.

    I'd be fine taking the blinds with 8-9bbs you still can ship some crap if in much better position if you can get into the pot first and even if you do get called your cards are probably much more live then A4s. You just don't want to ship junk into a huge stack but for someone who would have to call off like 50% of their stack or more to look you up gives you decent fold equity.

    The KQ hand UTG+1 you (Druff) talked about on radio is bad as well. Call is never a good option when a guy UTG raises to 2400 (2.4bb) when you have 15k I believe you said. What happens if someone else ships? You now really hate your hand even more folding away almost 1/6th of your stack so you would be better off shipping or folding. I'd go with a fold here unless you have a read villain is opening utg very wide like he's done this several times already then it's a decision whether you want to take a stand by shoving or wait for a better spot. KQ is just not very good against most utg open ranges. What if he decides to just call off with A9 or a lower pair since he feels committed? You not in the best shape not to mention you have to get through a ton of players before getting back to the UTG guy.

    Harrington wrote some good books but his strategies are not as effective as they once were in a game that has changed drastically since they were written.

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