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Thread: Thoughts on cheating in poker: The Online Game

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    Gold Steve-O's Avatar
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    Thoughts on cheating in poker: The Online Game

    Online poker players need to not only worry about collusion, hackers, and other player-on-player crime, but there is also the online sites themselves that they need to worry about. If after everything that has happened, from Super-Users to the lengths online sites went to continue to serve the US market, you still have the 2005 mindset of “Why would the sites cheat, they make money hand over fist from the rake!” you are insane!

    If I owned an online poker site, and was an unethical individual, I think it would be a very simple matter to cheat my players and never get caught, and I think this could be done in a variety of different ways! In an older blog post discussing the potential for online poker sites to “rig the deck” so to speak, I wrote the following:

    “For instance, suppose in every all-in situation on the Turn the site was to remove just two harmless cards from the deck, by doing so they would prolong the number of hands the player with the worst of it will play in the long-run, while not drastically changing the individual outcomes, and since even winning players get it in bad sometimes it would basically go completely unnoticed.

    “Here’s a real world example of what I mean: Suppose a player gets it all-in with one card to come, and has 2 outs. Normally they have about a 4.5% chance of winning, but removing two cards boosts their winning potential to around 4.75%. See how it would work?

    “Now suppose you get it in good 75% of the time, you would only be losing roughly .18% equity per hand when you get it all-in on the turn. Do you think you would be able to spot this lost equity? So in our example above instead of winning 95.5% of the time you would only win 95.25% of the time. So over the course of 100,000 hands your opponent would win 1,049 times instead of 1,047 times!”


    That’s just one way a site could easily rig their games. The key point is that the best way to cheat your players, from the site’s perspective, would be to make every player as close in skill level as possible, since this means they would play more hands, and therefore generate more rake –the perfect scenario for an online poker site is to have every player be the exact same skill level, neither winning or losing, because inevitably they would juts bed ground down entirely by the rake.

    Now add to this low-limit poker bots, which not only can be programmed to play a very conservative, break-even, style, but also can keep more tables running. How hard would it be for a site to just scrap all of these bots every week (so players do not build-up databases and fishy play is not detected) or simply allow for screen-name changes for this group? How would players –especially low-limit poker players—be able to confirm they were playing against bots?
    Last edited by Steve-O; 03-28-2012 at 05:37 AM.
    I write things about poker at my Poker Blog and elsewhere on the Internets

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    Gold Steve-O's Avatar
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    Follow up about Live Poker can be found here: http://pokerfraudalert.com/forum/sho...ker-Live-Poker
    I write things about poker at my Poker Blog and elsewhere on the Internets

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    The "remove 2 harmless cards from the deck all-in" is an interesting theory, but it remains just a theory.

    No deck-rigging has ever been proven in the analysis of poker site hands.

    As I've stated before, the most likely form of cheating would be some form of superusing at the high limit games -- which is exactly what has actually occurred in the past. This is because most of the money (that isn't eaten by rake) filters up to the top games anyway, so taking the money away from those guys basically really minimizes how much money gets cashed out, which is the ultimate goal for every poker site, whether ethical or unethical.

    Also, keep in mind that online rake is a bit different than live rake.

    In live games, players show up with real, physical money, a certain amount of that money gets raked, and the players leave with the rest (though it gets redistributed between the players themselves). Aside from a few people who keep "big chips" for playing next time, almost everyone playing live cashes out after every session.

    Online is quite different. There are really only two transactions that matter to a poker site -- deposits and cashouts. Deposits are good, because they put money into the site's economy. Cashouts are bad, and take money OUT of the site's economy. Therefore, sites WANT as many deposits as possible, and they want to see as few withdrawals as possible. Rigging the games for the fish to last longer isn't always a good thing, because that also prevents additional deposits that the fish would have made if they had busted more quickly and more often.

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    I wrote this analysis about online poker cheating in 2009. Obviously it's a bit dated, with my statements about still playing on Full Tilt, but most of the points still remain valid...

    -------------------------------------------------------------

    When I appeared on "60 Minutes" in November, many twoplustwo forum nerds were quite angry at me for my final statement in the segment. That statment involved my opinion that the AP/UB "superuser" scandal could just be one of many instances of online poker cheating, and that other, more cleverly concealed forms of cheating might also still be occurring.

    At first, as a result of the ensuing outrage, I apologized for making such a statement due to the potential harm it could do online poker. After thinking about it a bit more, I took back the apology. What I said was indeed unpleasant, but it had to be said. Online poker is an unregulated environment that exists under virtually no legal jurisdiction. It is extremely foolish to place complete trust in any such entity. Our long-term solution should be a push for regulation and legalization in the US (something else I said right after my controversial statement on "60 Minutes" that was unfortunately cut). However, in the absence of such legalization, it is important to not blindly trust the online poker operators' claims of honesty and legitimacy. There indeed needs to be some sort of third-party regulation, even if it exists outside the U.S.

    We need a regulatory body to take and aggressively investigate our complaints, and one that is not influenced by the online poker industry in any way. Such a solution is more of a pipe dream than anything else, as these private businesses are unlikely to ever want to take steps to be regulated, scrutinized, or sanctioned by another organization. However, as players we should demand this, or at the very least some degree of transparency regarding what is really going on behind the scenes.

    This brings me to my next point, and it's a question that I have to answer very often these days:

    "Druff, if you are so critical of online poker and scared of its potential future scandals, why are you still one of the most active players on Pokerstars?"

    It's a valid question. It's not like I'm an anti-online-poker crusader who has sworn off play on all sites. While I have actively boycotted AP and UB for their scandal and subsequent mishandling that exists to this day, I still play on sites such as Pokerstars and Full Tilt. So does this mean that I trust Pokerstars and Full Tilt, and am sure that they are conducting honest business? Yes and no.

    I believe enough in the integrity of certain sites to continue playing on them. These include 3 of the "Big 4" networks that currently allow US Players -- Pokerstars, Full Tilt, and the Cake Network. However, the simple truth is that these sites have no oversight and nobody to answer to. They could be cheating you, and you might very well never know it. Remeber, the cheaters at AP and UB were not caught because it's impossible to cheat at online poker and get away with it. They were caught because they were incredibly reckless and stupid. You cannot simply assume that other cheating scandals would also exist to the same degree of recklessness and blatant disregard for getting found out. For example, if I were given a Superuser account on Pokerstars, I could easily cheat with it cleverly enough to where I could never get caught. So could any other experienced poker player who could get his greed under control. That's the scary part here. Cheating could easily be occurring, and we have no way to ever know it.

    So, again, why I am still playing on Pokerstars? It's a judgment call. Simply, there is no current evidence of wrongdoing, and if I had to guess, I would guess on the side that they are NOT cheating. This is what I do for a living, and to give up playing all online poker would substantially hurt my bottom line. While I am happy to do that in regards to a network known for dishonesty (AP/UB/Cereus), I am not ready to give up simply because a site COULD be dishonest. But it's still a concern, nonetheless, and something we need to be aware of.

    To determine the actual risk of playing in a dishonest game, I feel it is useful to discuss the possible forms of cheating, and their likelihood to be occurring. Everyone has their own theories as to why online poker is or isn't dishonest, but unfortunately some of them are based on rather flimsy premises (on both sides of the argument). It is important to narrow down how cheating could be taking place, and how much of a danger each form of cheating really is. This will be broken down below...



    Cheating Form #1: Superusers

    Description: The cheater can see all hole cards of all players. They CANNOT predict the future cards to come, however. Superusers can lose if really unlucky (such as getting drawn out on), but will destroy any game they play in a very short time.

    The Insider Factor: Superusers will almost always have to be established first on the inside. This is because a modification would have to be made to the server side of the poker network to send ALL hands to certain players, rather than just the player's hand. Even if such an account exists for testing purposes, a hacker would likely not know which account he needs to access in order to get this ability.

    Likelihood that this has happened before: Certain. This is what went on at Absolute Poker and Ultimatebet.
    Likelihood that this could still be happening: Moderate. The AP/UB superusers were stupid and greedy, and thus got caught. However, someone intelligent and subtle could steal millions from fellow players with a superuser account, and never get caught. Data mining companies such as Poker Table Ratings could assist in identifying future superusers, but someone smart behind a superuser scandal would use multiple accounts to steal, therefore making it difficult to identify superusers with data mining tools. There is a lot of money to be made by superusing, and unlike the AP/UB scandal, the criminal trail doesn't have to lead to the top. Sneaky programmers could easily stick in such malicious code and steal millions of dollars easily. Even if caught, unless already publicly accused by fellow players, the sites would almost surely keep it quiet for fear of a severely harmed reputation.

    Is this a high-limit, low-limit, or all-limit problem? The AP/UB scandals taught us something about human greed. When you get a way to steal money from everyone, human nature is to go directly for the big guys. It appears that, aside from some cases of tournament cheating, all victims in the AP/UB scandal were cheated at the highest games the sites had to offer. While low and middle limit players could have been stolen from, they weren't. This makes sense from both a practical and human nature standpoint. If you had a superuser account, would you grind out wins at $5/$10 when you could easily get away with it at $100/$200 for 20 times the money? Low limit players fearing they are up against superusers need to reassess the situation and realize they are in little danger.



    Cheating Form #2: Clairvoyance

    Description: Cheaters know both the holecards of opponents AND the upcoming flop, turn, and river. With such information, it is possible to literally never see a flop and lose the hand. For example, if you hold pocket aces but can see your opponent with 66 will likely play the hand and outflop you, you can simply fold the aces pre-flop and never lose the hand. It is literally impossible to beat an opponent with clairvoyance, whether in the short or long term. The term "clairvoyance" implies some sort of supernatural ability to know the future, but in terms of online poker cheating, it simply refers to knowing the contents of the entire deck before it is dealt. In online poker, this occurs when the random number generator has been cracked, or alternatively if a tool is written into the software to broadcast this information to the cheaters prior to the hand being dealt.

    The Insider Factor: Moderate. While this could be easily set up as a malicious piece of code on the side on the poker server, it is also possible for hackers to crack the random number generator to accomplish the same. However, Pokerstars claims they have invented a random number generation process that is impossible to crack. If true, then the insider factor here is almost 100%.

    Likelihood that this has happened before: Certain, but it was a long time ago. In 2001, some academics set out to crack Planet Poker's random number generator, and successfully did so. However, they did this as an intellectual project, and did not attempt to make money from it. Instead, they immediately notified Planet Poker and subsequently wrote a paper about it after it was fixed.

    Likelihood that this is still happening: Low to moderate. A very consistent and high level of ill-gotten profit can be obtained by simply creating a typical Superuser account, so going this extra step is less likely for insiders. Can hackers still crack random number generators on poker sites? Probably not. While it is never possible to create an "unhackable" random number generator, it is possible to make one sophisticated enough to where it would be very difficult to break, even if you know how it works. The Planet Poker randon number generator was very simple and poorly designed. The generators on modern sites are likely much, much, better. This primarily leaves the danger in the hands of insiders. This might be occurring, but again a simple Superuser account is more likely than this.

    Is this a high-limit, low-limit, or all-limit problem? High-limit only, for the same reasons given above in the Superuser case.



    Cheating Form #3: Kill Switches

    Description: Players known to be willing to deposit money are forced to lose, thereby bringing more money into the site. Alternatively, players known to be big winners are forced to lose in order to prevent them from withdrawing.

    The Insider Factor: This would have to be an inside job, and it would have to be dictated from the top. This is because no particular individual would gain from this being done, and it would only help the site as a whole.

    Likelihood that this has happened before: Low. There are no credible reports of kill switches existing. While this is indeed possible and would be a great way for poker sites to make extra money, the concept of kill-switching only exists in theory, and has never been proven to have actually occurred.

    Likehood that this is still happening: Low. However, since this has never before been caught, it would still be going on if it has occurred in the past.

    Is this a high-limit, low-limit, or all-limit problem? This would be a concern for players at all limits, though again it would be something to be more concerned about at higher limits. This is because most lower limit players lose anyway, and don't need a kill switch to either stop them from withdrawing or forcing them to deposit more money. That happens on its own! Winning low limit players tend to move up to middle and high limit games. However, it is possible that the lower limit games could also be targeted, and that $3/$6 nits grinding out a moderate profit every month could be kill-switched. The greastest danger of this exists at high limits for two reasons. First, high limit players are the most likely to withdraw from the site, and when they do, they take out large sums of money. It is never good for a poker site's economy to have a large withdrawal made. Second, if a player has shown a willingness to deposit after busting, that is a huge BOOST to the site's economy. Therefore, it would be advantageous to force the player to lose. Again, though, while great in theory, there is no known occurrence of kill-switching in online poker.



    Cheating Form #4: Computer Assistance

    Description: This is the opposite of kill-switching. Various bad players, known to bring action to the site but also being certain to quickly lose their money, are given miracle cards in order to keep them in action. This would serve to keep games running longer, and thus bring more rake to the site. It would also keep the better players from winning too much and withdrawing.

    The Insider Factor: This would have to be an inside job.

    Likelihood that this has happened before: Very low. In the many billions of hands dealt online, there are no known reports of really bad players surviving for an unusually long time. In most cases, winning or break-even players judged as "bad" are just playing an unconventional style that manages to work surprisingly well. Furthermore, assisting bad players to survive would prevent them from redepositing, which is essential to a site's survival.

    Likelihood that this is still happening: Also very low, for reasons stated above.

    Is this a high-limit, low-limit, or all-limit problem? This would be a problem at all limits if it would be occurring. This would actually be best if done at high limits, as those games will tend to break if there is no live-one around to donate money. However, it is assumed that this would not be a smart move for poker sites, as these same players would have less of a need to deposit if not losing. The high limit games also do not generate a high percentage of overall rake for the site, and more serve as eye candy for lower limit players to aspire to join one day. Increasing game length for more rake would not bring a lot of extra money at higher limits. The bigger reason to computer-assist there would to keep the winning players from making too much and withdrawing. Overall, this is not a likely problem to worry about.



    Cheating Form #5: Pot Juicing

    Description: Cards are intentionally dealt to players to bring on a high level of post-flop action. For example, if you deal one player 9-T, another player 88, and another player JJ, and the flop comes J-8-7, that could be accused of being a juiced pot. Reasons for doing this include increasing the rake per hand, as well as providing a more fun, action-packed game for players.

    The Insider Factor: This would have to be an inside job.

    Likelihood that this has happened before: Extremely low. There is little overall benefit to the site from doing this. Even if the rake per hand is higher, it will also result in an uneven distribution of money. Certain players will win too much, others will lose too quickly, and fewer games will go, resulting in reduced rake in the long run. As long as withdrawals don't occur, the site is happy to see everyone grinding their money away to the rake over the long term, provided that a certain degree of new money flows in through deposits. Also, contrary to popular belief, players DO NOT like juiced pots. While it's great to be on the winning end of them, flopping top set and losing is extremely unnerving, and will often evoke suspicion of the site's legitimacy, and perhaps cause that player to reconsider ever depositing again. There is not enough gain to be had here to where juicing pots would ever be worth it.

    Likelihood that this is still occurring: Extremely low, for reasons mentioned above.

    Is this a high-limit, low-limit, or all limit problem? Low limit only. The maximum rake is always reached anyway at high limit tables, and players there are smart enough to know when the pot average is only high because of certain action pots. There would be ZERO gain from doing this at a high limit tables. This could theoretically get more short-term rake at low-limit tables, but for reasons stated above, I do not believe this has ever actually happened.

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    Gold Steve-O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    The "remove 2 harmless cards from the deck all-in" is an interesting theory, but it remains just a theory.

    No deck-rigging has ever been proven in the analysis of poker site hands.

    As I've stated before, the most likely form of cheating would be some form of superusing at the high limit games -- which is exactly what has actually occurred in the past. This is because most of the money (that isn't eaten by rake) filters up to the top games anyway, so taking the money away from those guys basically really minimizes how much money gets cashed out, which is the ultimate goal for every poker site, whether ethical or unethical.

    Also, keep in mind that online rake is a bit different than live rake.

    In live games, players show up with real, physical money, a certain amount of that money gets raked, and the players leave with the rest (though it gets redistributed between the players themselves). Aside from a few people who keep "big chips" for playing next time, almost everyone playing live cashes out after every session.

    Online is quite different. There are really only two transactions that matter to a poker site -- deposits and cashouts. Deposits are good, because they put money into the site's economy. Cashouts are bad, and take money OUT of the site's economy. Therefore, sites WANT as many deposits as possible, and they want to see as few withdrawals as possible. Rigging the games for the fish to last longer isn't always a good thing, because that also prevents additional deposits that the fish would have made if they had busted more quickly and more often.
    Just for clarification, I was putting this out there as my own theory, not as a given fact. But I know you of all people are skeptical enough to question whether the limited data turned over for independent analysis is complete. And I really couldn't see how even with a multi-million hand database a person could spot this trend, or come up with conclusive evidence showing it. Keep in mind the site could just pull one-card and only on two days a week if they wanted to --or pull four cards at lower stakes tables where it's far more likely to go unnoticed.

    I half agree with you on Deposits and cashouts. Cashouts are bad, because every dollar not on the site is money that cannot be gambled. Deposits are good IF a site doesn't segregate the funds. There isn't profit for the company in deposits (in fact since the site pays the majority of transaction fees on credit cards and other payment methods you could say that each deposit TAKES money from the site) the profit comes with people using those deposits to gamble. I'd also throw out that a person is more likely to overestimate their abilities (and therefore make additional deposits) if they are competitive, opposed to getting thrashed every time they play.

    ***EDIT***Basically, it doesn't matter how money gets on a site, whether it's one whale depositing $1,000,000 and losing it to different players, or 10,000 people depositing $100. The acto of getting money into their "economy" is just the first step in making profits for an online poker room. In order to make money players then have to gamble that money, and the longer they gamble the more the online site makes. How it gets there or how long it remains really shouldn't be seen as overly important to the site's bottom line, the only thing that matters outside of the marketing department is what happens once the money is on the site: How can we get more players playing at more tables.****

    You can also see this in the sites sudden use of free training and strategic articles which began after 2006. I don't think they were trying to compete with the niche markets created by Cardrunners and others, but simply looking to close the gap between the better players and the bad players. Again this is just my theory on the matter.
    Last edited by Steve-O; 04-01-2012 at 05:31 AM.
    I write things about poker at my Poker Blog and elsewhere on the Internets

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    Gold Steve-O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    I wrote this analysis about online poker cheating in 2009. Obviously it's a bit dated, with my statements about still playing on Full Tilt, but most of the points still remain valid...

    -------------------------------------------------------------

    When I appeared on "60 Minutes" in November, many twoplustwo forum nerds were quite angry at me for my final statement in the segment. That statment involved my opinion that the AP/UB "superuser" scandal could just be one of many instances of online poker cheating, and that other, more cleverly concealed forms of cheating might also still be occurring.

    At first, as a result of the ensuing outrage, I apologized for making such a statement due to the potential harm it could do online poker. After thinking about it a bit more, I took back the apology. What I said was indeed unpleasant, but it had to be said. Online poker is an unregulated environment that exists under virtually no legal jurisdiction. It is extremely foolish to place complete trust in any such entity. Our long-term solution should be a push for regulation and legalization in the US (something else I said right after my controversial statement on "60 Minutes" that was unfortunately cut). However, in the absence of such legalization, it is important to not blindly trust the online poker operators' claims of honesty and legitimacy. There indeed needs to be some sort of third-party regulation, even if it exists outside the U.S.

    We need a regulatory body to take and aggressively investigate our complaints, and one that is not influenced by the online poker industry in any way. Such a solution is more of a pipe dream than anything else, as these private businesses are unlikely to ever want to take steps to be regulated, scrutinized, or sanctioned by another organization. However, as players we should demand this, or at the very least some degree of transparency regarding what is really going on behind the scenes.

    This brings me to my next point, and it's a question that I have to answer very often these days:

    "Druff, if you are so critical of online poker and scared of its potential future scandals, why are you still one of the most active players on Pokerstars?"

    It's a valid question. It's not like I'm an anti-online-poker crusader who has sworn off play on all sites. While I have actively boycotted AP and UB for their scandal and subsequent mishandling that exists to this day, I still play on sites such as Pokerstars and Full Tilt. So does this mean that I trust Pokerstars and Full Tilt, and am sure that they are conducting honest business? Yes and no.

    I believe enough in the integrity of certain sites to continue playing on them. These include 3 of the "Big 4" networks that currently allow US Players -- Pokerstars, Full Tilt, and the Cake Network. However, the simple truth is that these sites have no oversight and nobody to answer to. They could be cheating you, and you might very well never know it. Remeber, the cheaters at AP and UB were not caught because it's impossible to cheat at online poker and get away with it. They were caught because they were incredibly reckless and stupid. You cannot simply assume that other cheating scandals would also exist to the same degree of recklessness and blatant disregard for getting found out. For example, if I were given a Superuser account on Pokerstars, I could easily cheat with it cleverly enough to where I could never get caught. So could any other experienced poker player who could get his greed under control. That's the scary part here. Cheating could easily be occurring, and we have no way to ever know it.

    So, again, why I am still playing on Pokerstars? It's a judgment call. Simply, there is no current evidence of wrongdoing, and if I had to guess, I would guess on the side that they are NOT cheating. This is what I do for a living, and to give up playing all online poker would substantially hurt my bottom line. While I am happy to do that in regards to a network known for dishonesty (AP/UB/Cereus), I am not ready to give up simply because a site COULD be dishonest. But it's still a concern, nonetheless, and something we need to be aware of.

    To determine the actual risk of playing in a dishonest game, I feel it is useful to discuss the possible forms of cheating, and their likelihood to be occurring. Everyone has their own theories as to why online poker is or isn't dishonest, but unfortunately some of them are based on rather flimsy premises (on both sides of the argument). It is important to narrow down how cheating could be taking place, and how much of a danger each form of cheating really is. This will be broken down below...



    Cheating Form #1: Superusers

    Description: The cheater can see all hole cards of all players. They CANNOT predict the future cards to come, however. Superusers can lose if really unlucky (such as getting drawn out on), but will destroy any game they play in a very short time.

    The Insider Factor: Superusers will almost always have to be established first on the inside. This is because a modification would have to be made to the server side of the poker network to send ALL hands to certain players, rather than just the player's hand. Even if such an account exists for testing purposes, a hacker would likely not know which account he needs to access in order to get this ability.

    Likelihood that this has happened before: Certain. This is what went on at Absolute Poker and Ultimatebet.
    Likelihood that this could still be happening: Moderate. The AP/UB superusers were stupid and greedy, and thus got caught. However, someone intelligent and subtle could steal millions from fellow players with a superuser account, and never get caught. Data mining companies such as Poker Table Ratings could assist in identifying future superusers, but someone smart behind a superuser scandal would use multiple accounts to steal, therefore making it difficult to identify superusers with data mining tools. There is a lot of money to be made by superusing, and unlike the AP/UB scandal, the criminal trail doesn't have to lead to the top. Sneaky programmers could easily stick in such malicious code and steal millions of dollars easily. Even if caught, unless already publicly accused by fellow players, the sites would almost surely keep it quiet for fear of a severely harmed reputation.

    Is this a high-limit, low-limit, or all-limit problem? The AP/UB scandals taught us something about human greed. When you get a way to steal money from everyone, human nature is to go directly for the big guys. It appears that, aside from some cases of tournament cheating, all victims in the AP/UB scandal were cheated at the highest games the sites had to offer. While low and middle limit players could have been stolen from, they weren't. This makes sense from both a practical and human nature standpoint. If you had a superuser account, would you grind out wins at $5/$10 when you could easily get away with it at $100/$200 for 20 times the money? Low limit players fearing they are up against superusers need to reassess the situation and realize they are in little danger.



    Cheating Form #2: Clairvoyance

    Description: Cheaters know both the holecards of opponents AND the upcoming flop, turn, and river. With such information, it is possible to literally never see a flop and lose the hand. For example, if you hold pocket aces but can see your opponent with 66 will likely play the hand and outflop you, you can simply fold the aces pre-flop and never lose the hand. It is literally impossible to beat an opponent with clairvoyance, whether in the short or long term. The term "clairvoyance" implies some sort of supernatural ability to know the future, but in terms of online poker cheating, it simply refers to knowing the contents of the entire deck before it is dealt. In online poker, this occurs when the random number generator has been cracked, or alternatively if a tool is written into the software to broadcast this information to the cheaters prior to the hand being dealt.

    The Insider Factor: Moderate. While this could be easily set up as a malicious piece of code on the side on the poker server, it is also possible for hackers to crack the random number generator to accomplish the same. However, Pokerstars claims they have invented a random number generation process that is impossible to crack. If true, then the insider factor here is almost 100%.

    Likelihood that this has happened before: Certain, but it was a long time ago. In 2001, some academics set out to crack Planet Poker's random number generator, and successfully did so. However, they did this as an intellectual project, and did not attempt to make money from it. Instead, they immediately notified Planet Poker and subsequently wrote a paper about it after it was fixed.

    Likelihood that this is still happening: Low to moderate. A very consistent and high level of ill-gotten profit can be obtained by simply creating a typical Superuser account, so going this extra step is less likely for insiders. Can hackers still crack random number generators on poker sites? Probably not. While it is never possible to create an "unhackable" random number generator, it is possible to make one sophisticated enough to where it would be very difficult to break, even if you know how it works. The Planet Poker randon number generator was very simple and poorly designed. The generators on modern sites are likely much, much, better. This primarily leaves the danger in the hands of insiders. This might be occurring, but again a simple Superuser account is more likely than this.

    Is this a high-limit, low-limit, or all-limit problem? High-limit only, for the same reasons given above in the Superuser case.



    Cheating Form #3: Kill Switches

    Description: Players known to be willing to deposit money are forced to lose, thereby bringing more money into the site. Alternatively, players known to be big winners are forced to lose in order to prevent them from withdrawing.

    The Insider Factor: This would have to be an inside job, and it would have to be dictated from the top. This is because no particular individual would gain from this being done, and it would only help the site as a whole.
    Likelihood that this has happened before: Low. There are no credible reports of kill switches existing. While this is indeed possible and would be a great way for poker sites to make extra money, the concept of kill-switching only exists in theory, and has never been proven to have actually occurred.

    Likehood that this is still happening: Low. However, since this has never before been caught, it would still be going on if it has occurred in the past.

    Is this a high-limit, low-limit, or all-limit problem? This would be a concern for players at all limits, though again it would be something to be more concerned about at higher limits. This is because most lower limit players lose anyway, and don't need a kill switch to either stop them from withdrawing or forcing them to deposit more money. That happens on its own! Winning low limit players tend to move up to middle and high limit games. However, it is possible that the lower limit games could also be targeted, and that $3/$6 nits grinding out a moderate profit every month could be kill-switched. The greastest danger of this exists at high limits for two reasons. First, high limit players are the most likely to withdraw from the site, and when they do, they take out large sums of money. It is never good for a poker site's economy to have a large withdrawal made. Second, if a player has shown a willingness to deposit after busting, that is a huge BOOST to the site's economy. Therefore, it would be advantageous to force the player to lose. Again, though, while great in theory, there is no known occurrence of kill-switching in online poker.



    Cheating Form #4: Computer Assistance

    Description: This is the opposite of kill-switching. Various bad players, known to bring action to the site but also being certain to quickly lose their money, are given miracle cards in order to keep them in action. This would serve to keep games running longer, and thus bring more rake to the site. It would also keep the better players from winning too much and withdrawing.

    The Insider Factor: This would have to be an inside job.

    Likelihood that this has happened before: Very low. In the many billions of hands dealt online, there are no known reports of really bad players surviving for an unusually long time. In most cases, winning or break-even players judged as "bad" are just playing an unconventional style that manages to work surprisingly well. Furthermore, assisting bad players to survive would prevent them from redepositing, which is essential to a site's survival.

    Likelihood that this is still happening: Also very low, for reasons stated above.

    Is this a high-limit, low-limit, or all-limit problem? This would be a problem at all limits if it would be occurring. This would actually be best if done at high limits, as those games will tend to break if there is no live-one around to donate money. However, it is assumed that this would not be a smart move for poker sites, as these same players would have less of a need to deposit if not losing. The high limit games also do not generate a high percentage of overall rake for the site, and more serve as eye candy for lower limit players to aspire to join one day. Increasing game length for more rake would not bring a lot of extra money at higher limits. The bigger reason to computer-assist there would to keep the winning players from making too much and withdrawing. Overall, this is not a likely problem to worry about.



    Cheating Form #5: Pot Juicing

    Description: Cards are intentionally dealt to players to bring on a high level of post-flop action. For example, if you deal one player 9-T, another player 88, and another player JJ, and the flop comes J-8-7, that could be accused of being a juiced pot. Reasons for doing this include increasing the rake per hand, as well as providing a more fun, action-packed game for players.

    The Insider Factor: This would have to be an inside job.

    Likelihood that this has happened before: Extremely low. There is little overall benefit to the site from doing this. Even if the rake per hand is higher, it will also result in an uneven distribution of money. Certain players will win too much, others will lose too quickly, and fewer games will go, resulting in reduced rake in the long run. As long as withdrawals don't occur, the site is happy to see everyone grinding their money away to the rake over the long term, provided that a certain degree of new money flows in through deposits. Also, contrary to popular belief, players DO NOT like juiced pots. While it's great to be on the winning end of them, flopping top set and losing is extremely unnerving, and will often evoke suspicion of the site's legitimacy, and perhaps cause that player to reconsider ever depositing again. There is not enough gain to be had here to where juicing pots would ever be worth it.

    Likelihood that this is still occurring: Extremely low, for reasons mentioned above.

    Is this a high-limit, low-limit, or all limit problem? Low limit only. The maximum rake is always reached anyway at high limit tables, and players there are smart enough to know when the pot average is only high because of certain action pots. There would be ZERO gain from doing this at a high limit tables. This could theoretically get more short-term rake at low-limit tables, but for reasons stated above, I do not believe this has ever actually happened.
    I remeber reading this a while back, very good post.
    I write things about poker at my Poker Blog and elsewhere on the Internets

  7. #7
    Gold Steve-O's Avatar
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    Here is the complete blog post I wrote on this, as well as a follow-up months later:

    After former WSOP bracelet winner, and poker pro, Jason Young came out publicly on his blog questioning the legitimacy of the online poker rooms I think it’s time to take another look at the possibility of online poker not being completely on the up-and-up.


    Let me start off by saying that for the most part I feel online poker rooms have very little to gain by “fixing” their games. However, I’m also old enough to know that greed knows no bounds, and as we’ve seen in other areas of life; there are plenty of extremely rich people who are willing to exploit others –even to the point of breaking laws—to make just a little bit more. Not to mention people who will traffic children and other heinous crimes to make money.

    Up until a couple of years ago any mention of online poker being rigged was treated as if it was spoken by Alex Jones (a legendary conspiracy theorist with his own radio show) and the accuser would be quickly shouted down as a losing player or crybaby who needed a lesson in variance. However, after the Absolute Poker and Ultimate Bet Poker scandals; Pitbull Poker joining PokerSpot as the only online poker rooms to run off with players money; and to a lesser extent the multi-accounting, winning poker bots, and collusion scandals, online poker players are not as quick to dismiss allegations of wrongdoing.

    Personally, there is a particular site –which will remain nameless—that I feel MIGHT be guilty of rigging the cards –I have no statistical proof, just a weird feeling, and the fact that it’s the only online poker site --out of probably 25+-- that I am not a long-term winner at.

    I’m not talking about Cash-Out Curses or Doom-Switches, because royally screwing you over is too easy for people to notice. IF a site is fiddling with the cards it’s more likely very slightly, or at least that’s what I would do if I was going to screw people over when I was already making money hand over fist.

    The real money isn’t from “Juicing” the pot, the real way to boost the rake is to keep as many players in action for as long as you possibly can, and the best way to do this is to bring as many people as close to break-even as possible! What I mean is that if a site turns a player who loses $100 every 1,000 hands into a player who loses $100 every 1,500 hands think about the extra rake they would gain. Now obviously it has to be done in a way that doesn’t draw attention, but just a slight alteration of the odds would be worth a fortune in the long-run.

    For instance, suppose in every all-in situation on the Turn the site was to remove just two harmless card from the deck, by doing so they would prolong the number of hands the player with the worst of it will play in the long-run, while not drastically changing the individual outcomes, and since even winning players get it in bad sometimes it would basically go completely unnoticed.

    Here’s a real world example of what I mean: Suppose a player gets it all-in with one card to come, and has 2 outs. Normally they have about a 4.5% chance of winning, but removing two cards boosts their winning potential to around 4.75%. See how it would work?

    Now suppose you get it in good 75% of the time, you would only be losing roughly .18% equity per hand when you get it all-in on the turn. Do you think you would be able to spot this lost equity? So in our example above instead of winning 95.5% of the time you would only win 95.25% of the time. So over the course of 100,000 hands your opponent would win 1,049 times instead of 1,047 times!

    *I’m not saying this is what is done, just that it would be one way to slightly alter the odds in the site’s favor. Also, I'm not a math-guy, and I did all the figures in my head, so if they are off don't worry; it's the idea, not the numbers that are important.*

    The reason I say things don’t “feel” right is because your brain is very good at picking up on things that just don’t FEEL right, and A LOT of people have these feelings about certain online poker rooms. The problem is people always want statistical proof, which would be impossible to supply in my above scenario. So, while your brain is picking up on something weird, your logic cannot figure out what is actually amiss, especially because of your extra suckouts on your opponents. Now imagine if you’re only a slight 55% or 60% favorite when you get it all-in? Or, what if the poker site removed 5 cards or 10 cards instead of 2? They could adjust the magnitude based on the stakes since high-stakes players are more likely to notice, and keep statistical data than low-stakes players.

    Think about all the scandals that have been uncovered, with little exception they have all been uncovered after a single person FEELS something is not quite right, and they usually are greeted with the typical shouting-down at first. There is no better example of this than the StoxTrader collusion allegations: If the allegations are true –which they appear to be—his collusion was as close to undetectable as possible. Furthermore, most people would say he didn’t need the small amount extra he was gaining from this, so why would he do it? Greed? Because he could?

    Now take it a step further, since the online poker sites don’t need to make as much per hand as a single person to make the risk worth the reward, it’s not unreasonable to think the sites would swing the odds slightly to make more money –especially with 0% chance of being caught, not to mention the justification that they are not singling out individual players, everyone gets the same edge! It just so happens that the more often you get it in bad the more often you will gain.

    Now, the reason I don’t buy the cash-out curses are for two reasons:

    1. You typically cash-out after a good-run, and the cards always even out

    2. A lot of players cash-out and then play a little more timidly because their bankroll is depleted

    The same applies for “Hot Seats” or “Hot IP Addresses” it just doesn’t make sense for the sites to bust players from the game quickly, since as I’ve shown they would want to drag the process out as long as they can.

    Again, this isn’t an indictment on poker sites, it’s meant to highlight the fact that it’s not out of the realm of possibility, and for players to dismiss any allegation as crazy is quite naieve.


    A while back I wrote a blog post outlining the way online poker sites “might” possibly be cheating players. The method I detailed is virtually undetectable, and can be skewed to be either more or less severe at the site’s whim. Furthermore, without complete access to huge blocks of the hand histories from the site, at most some players might “feel” something was amiss in the back of their brains. In order to keep this post at a manageable size I won’t go into the details of how a site can rig the deck and not get caught, if you’re interested you can read about it here: Is Online Poker Rigged? One Possibility.


    Although my original post was meant as a hypothetical, or even a slight warning to stay alert to all possibilities, I think the perception of the online poker world has changed in such a way that it’s time to revisit the possibility that something may have been rotten in Denmark, or more aptly, in Ireland.


    When I first wrote about this possibility I left the name of the online poker room that was the focus of my suspicions out, Full Tilt Poker. At the time I did this for two reasons:


    #1 – I think it leant more credence to what I was saying by not fingering a specific target when I have absolutely ZERO hard evidence.


    #2 – Very few people at the time would have taken me seriously, since Full Tilt Poker was considered one of the pillars of the online poker world.


    This entire post is still just conjecture, and I have no empirical evidence, just a hunch, and thanks to all of the findings post-Black Friday a track record of less than ethical behavior by the site.


    Now I want to mention a few things I left out from my original post. The first thing I want to expand on is the fact that Full Tilt Poker is the only poker site I have ever played at where I am not a winning player –only my rakeback deal allowed me to turn any kind of profit at the site. For a long time I believed the industry hype that the players were just a little bit better at Full Tilt Poker, but now I am wondering.


    Now I’m not a world-beater when it comes to my poker skill, but I am a solid long-term winner, and it wasn’t like I was playing $25/$50 NLHE or even $5/$10 NLHE. I quit playing poker professionally in 2006, and since then I have only “goofed around” at lower stakes, online, games playing anywhere from penny PLO games to $100 buy-in games. Games I should have a very big edge in.


    Here are some questions I have:


    · Were there in fact bots being employed by the site?


    Even in $1/$2 and $2/$4 Limit O8 games and $10-$100 PLO games there were players that were seemingly always there, who played strange (a weird assessment in a low stakes online game, I know), and were long-term losing players according to my PT Omaha –most slightly under break-even, some horrible -10BB/100 losers—yet there they were day after day.


    When I say they played strange I don’t mean on the whole, what I mean is a player with a 25/2 VPIP/PFR might cold call a three-bet pre-flop in PLO and turns over JJJ6 at showdown, and then folds his small blind after 4 limps the next hand! Which begs the question: What the hell is he folding getting 11-to-1 if he thinks JJJ6 is good for flatting a 3-bet?


    It wasn’t that the play was unorthodox or just bad; it was that they would suddenly go against their typical playing style for a single hand here and there, showing up with a hand the craziest maniac would have discarded. So a guy in an Omaha 8 game who is playing 10/7 VPIP/PFR all of a sudden turns up in a capped pot pre-flop with A69Q??? Or, a player with an 85/50 VPIP/PFR open-folds on the button. It was as if certain hands were programmed to be folded.


    As I watched these same players do out of character things my suspicions continued to grow. And interestingly these players never chatted.


    · Where did the rumors, or the notion, of Full Tilt Poker players being “better” come from?


    It turns out that Full Tilt had a number of shills posting in the poker forums around the Internet. So were these posters the Genesis of this rumor, or just the response from the site to cover up poker bots and other forms of malfeasance?


    In small stakes games I find the best indicator of how good a game is, is by looking at the average pot. Full Tilt Poker’s pots were about the same as they were on PokerStars or UB, but the one thing I always noticed was that the games were far less aggressive pre-flop. Basically it seemed to me that there were fewer chasers on Full Tilt. This would lend credence to the possibility of bots, as well as playing into my next question.


    · Why was I either red hot or ice cold on the site?


    If you were to classify my play in an Omaha 8 game it would be “Nitty”, in PLO I’m a little looser but still pretty much a tight player in a typical game. Obviously in low-stakes games this equals a winning strategy, but it also helps keep my variance pretty low since I avoid a lot of marginal spots where I might be slightly +EV. Put it this way, in all of my years playing live poker I’ve lost a full 25BB buy-in playing Omaha 8 or better –anywhere from $2/$4 to $75/$150 over the years—a grand total of one time! In my time at Party Poker and on PokerStars it was maybe a weekly occurrence, but at Full Tilt I was constantly reloading, there were days where I was losing full buy-ins at two or three of my four tables, sometimes losing up to three full buy-ins at a single table.


    At Full Tilt it seemed I was either running really hot, or extremely cold (especially when playing Sit and Go’s). Considering the games were more passive than on other sites, this only makes sense if they were messing around with the Deck as I outlined in my older post (or rigging the game in some other way).
    I write things about poker at my Poker Blog and elsewhere on the Internets

  8. #8
    Gold Bootsy Collins's Avatar
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    A question that has always been on my mind is are/ were sites like Pokerstars, Full Tilt and even UB have had their random number generators audited and verified by a reputable independent outside company?
    Quote Originally Posted by RealTalk View Post
    Lol at the amount of effort that druff's friends have to exert trying to do an internet podcast without offending him.

  9. #9
    Diamond mulva's Avatar
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    online poker..lol
    Last edited by mulva; 04-15-2012 at 07:56 PM.

  10. #10
    NoFraud Poker Room Manager Belly Buster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bootsy Collins View Post
    A question that has always been on my mind is are/ were sites like Pokerstars, Full Tilt and even UB have had their random number generators audited and verified by a reputable independent outside company?
    I believe (from memory) Pokerstars had their RNG verified by PwC.

    In my opinion this is welcome but falls a long way short of ideal. I think RNG testing has to come from two sides:

    1) a diehard-type test conducted by a company specializing in RNG testing
    2) a visual inspection of the software code by a developer experienced in the development of cryptographic software. This would ensure that there is no backdoor code to slew the randomness towards different outcomes in different circumstances.

  11. #11
    Gold Steve-O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bootsy Collins View Post
    A question that has always been on my mind is are/ were sites like Pokerstars, Full Tilt and even UB have had their random number generators audited and verified by a reputable independent outside company?
    Even if they did submit to this, I know some have, it would pretty simple to have a second code of software; the method I detailed could be turned off or on at will. I mean the fucking AGCC couldn't even figure out who owned Full Tilt Poker, or what their books looked like with all the false info they were feeding them, and they were supposed to be a top-notch regulatory body!

    When it comes to an independent check the problem I see is who is paying for the independent company? Under the new Las Vegas laws the online poker sites would haved to set aside a fund to cover these costs, but it would be by a group chosen by the NGCB to conduct the tests and audits. Right now and in the past it would seem the sites themselves were paying for and hiring "independent" auditors --hell if Full Tilt offered someone limited access to their RNG and $50,000 to audit their RNG, and say "software's on the up and up" how many people are refusing or delving deeper into the possibility of a second string of code?
    I write things about poker at my Poker Blog and elsewhere on the Internets

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    Gold Shizzmoney's Avatar
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    I agree. I also think any RNG rigging would be towards juicing up pots to drive an optimal amount of rake.

    Especially in the lower stakes games, which are cluttered with multi-tabling short stackers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belly Buster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bootsy Collins View Post
    A question that has always been on my mind is are/ were sites like Pokerstars, Full Tilt and even UB have had their random number generators audited and verified by a reputable independent outside company?
    I believe (from memory) Pokerstars had their RNG verified by PwC.

    In my opinion this is welcome but falls a long way short of ideal. I think RNG testing has to come from two sides:

    1) a diehard-type test conducted by a company specializing in RNG testing
    2) a visual inspection of the software code by a developer experienced in the development of cryptographic software. This would ensure that there is no backdoor code to slew the randomness towards different outcomes in different circumstances.

  13. #13
    Bronze
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    two words:

    MERGE NETWORK.

  14. #14
    Cubic Zirconia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    No deck-rigging has ever been proven in the analysis of poker site hands.
    I do believe you are right, but inadequate shuffle algorithms have been exploited many years ago (back in 1999) which yield a very similar situation. These inadequate shuffles essentially made the deck order predictable as there was a limited range of possible shuffle combinations.

    Of course, the shuffle algorithms have improved since then, but it's good to keep in mind that any algorithm is subject to being flawed.

  15. #15
    Cubic Zirconia
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    What are your thoughts on duplicate poker where you play with the same cards? I got a mailer from Skillbet that claims to be 100% legal. I checked out the site and it looks nice but only a few players (maybe bots?). Have only played the free money version so far.

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