bitcoins hit $49 today, also now an article on CNN
bitcoins hit $49 today, also now an article on CNN
Feds intervene in 3...2...
"You run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole; you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole."
This reminds me a lot of the housing boom of the mid-2000s.
Prices skyrocketing, you KNOW they will completely crash at some point, but you're afraid to buy in because that crash could be tomorrow.
I agree that this price spike (and associated news media coverage) is just going to hasten the federal government having to address it soon.
I still not buying into the hype.
The market is not large enough to be be immune to manipulation.
The "positive press" are based around the fact that bitcoins are starting to take off. This will aid bitcoins because there are far more people who have invested businesses around bitcoins.
Most people don't realize bitcoins are a valid micropayment platform. People have been talking about micropayments for near 20 years yet there has been little more than paypal.
Because of all this, VISA, MC, Paypal, etc will all be lined up to lobby against bitcoins so the net effect of lobbying from popularity is questionable. VISA/MC/Paypal are giants.
Bitcoins are international. Most Americans seem to think that the world doesn't exist outside their borders. This is not accurate. US Federal crackdown on bitcoins will really hurt demand, but they would survive on the web elsewhere.
Bitcoins have been over 30 then went back down to 5 to get back up to 50. This idea that they'll implode is silly. Most people pushing bitcoins don't suggest you invest in them. Others seem to continually become confused and think bitcoins are for 2 things. Illegal purchases and investing schemes. It is silly, but to be expected. Nothing is accepted overnight, lots of "smart" people like to be contrarian to think they're sharp.
http://gambling911.com/poker/bitcoin...er-030613.html
IPoker now accepts the shitcoin but they don't accept Americans.
I think Redstar offers bitcoin cashouts as well (rev skin, dont accept u.s)Originally Posted by BeerAndPoker
bitcoins are blowin up
I really hope Micon had a stash of these fuckers so he can cash in.
This really is a sad state of affairs. Think about this. This currency was invented by a computer programmer in 2009. It's not backed by anything. The USD is backed strictly by the USA: its government, military, land, food, electricity, natural resources, intellectual property, technology, infrastructure, etc... Trying to compare the two is just hilarious.
You know what this 2009 computer program is based on? Hope and Dreams. It can never survive because its based on nothing, except trust among a bunch of douche bags trying to make a buck. It just another penny stock scheme.
At the end of the day Bitcoins are effective for bartering, but I wouldnt be holding on to too many of these things.
Actually it is not based on trust. Fiat currency is based on trust:
- you trust Ben Bernanke not to devalue your money thru inflation
- you trust your government not to freeze your bank account, especially your bank accounts outside USA
- you trust your government to allow you to spend your money however you want to
- you trust your bank actually has your money
Bitcoin:
- can't be artificially inflated
- accounts cannot be frozen
- you can send money to anyone anywhere in the world (with lower fees, instantly)
- YOU hold your money, not a bank
Almost miraculously, you can do all this without trusting anyone. The code is open source. Bitcoin makes paying taxes more consensual. Bitcoin is immune to government corruption.
On an average day, how many lines of coke to you do? 15? 20?Actually it is not based on trust. Fiat currency is based on trust:
- you trust Ben Bernanke not to devalue your money thru inflation
- you trust your government not to freeze your bank account, especially your bank accounts outside USA
- you trust your government to allow you to spend your money however you want to
- you trust your bank actually has your money
Bitcoin:
- can't be artificially inflated
- accounts cannot be frozen
- you can send money to anyone anywhere in the world (with lower fees, instantly)
- YOU hold your money, not a bank
Almost miraculously, you can do all this without trusting anyone. The code is open source. Bitcoin makes paying taxes more consensual. Bitcoin is immune to government corruption.
can't be artificially inflatedActually it is not based on trust. Fiat currency is based on trust:
- you trust Ben Bernanke not to devalue your money thru inflation
- you trust your government not to freeze your bank account, especially your bank accounts outside USA
- you trust your government to allow you to spend your money however you want to
- you trust your bank actually has your money
Bitcoin:
- can't be artificially inflated
- accounts cannot be frozen
- you can send money to anyone anywhere in the world (with lower fees, instantly)
- YOU hold your money, not a bank
Almost miraculously, you can do all this without trusting anyone. The code is open source. Bitcoin makes paying taxes more consensual. Bitcoin is immune to government corruption.
Not only can it be be artificially inflated, the inventor(s) built artificial deflation into the Bitcoin system in an effort to encourage people to utilize the currency rather than horde it for speculative value, by allowing people to mine for new coins at a regressive rate until the point where all coins had been mined.
This was a logical approach, as were gold to have begun it's use as a currency when all available gold was already mined, one or more wealthy individuals could corner the market to inflate the value and the fundamental principle of currency is the desire for slight but steady deflation.
The problem is they didn't begin the bitcoin system at a high enough market cap for current mining rates to negate the affect of a substantial bitcoin acquisition, a relatively minor one million dollar 'investment' in bitcoin is more than a weeks worth of current mining, meaning that in order for someone to purchase that many coins they aren't available unless someone agrees to sell, therefore the 'value' of bitcoins is inflated not because of any increase of commerce of bitcoin, but merely for the exchanges to acquire enough bitcoins from sellers to fill the spike in buy rate caused by speculators.
accounts cannot be frozen
Of course they can, whether the account is at a bank, a bitcoin exchange or on your PC or Phone, probable cause is still the same requirement for a forfeiture/seizure warrant.
you can send money to anyone anywhere in the world (with lower fees, instantly)
You can send 'value' to anyone in the world, but unless that person has the means (access to local banking services to obtain an exchange account) to convert that value into money, it's worthless to the majority of world population.
YOU hold your money, not a bank
When did that become a preference and not an issue? If your home burns down, whether you had cash in your mattress or bitcoins on your laptop, your savings will be equally destroyed.
The "market cap" is solely determined by the value/demand of BTC, and nothing to do with the underlying system. 1 BTC or .1 BTC, it is all relative. The type of analysis above is just not valid. It is a pool of resources and there was a system made to distribute them in such a manner to create some level of fairness. If 1 BTC costs too much, then you trade in .1 BTC. There is no way to specify the market cap as it depends on the market demand and very little to do with how many BTC have been created.
As far as holding money.. it is in general preferred to have it in a bank, but a bank has downsides too.
You are also wrong about bitcoins being frozen etc. It is not possible due to the protocol. You own your account in a mathematical sense, not in a 'the government says you do' sense.
Last edited by donkdowndonedied; 03-10-2013 at 12:01 PM.
The "market cap" is solely determined by the value/demand of BTC, and nothing to do with the underlying system. 1 BTC or .1 BTC, it is all relative. The type of analysis above is just not valid. It is a pool of resources and there was a system made to distribute them in such a manner to create some level of fairness. If 1 BTC costs too much, then you trade in .1 BTC. There is no way to specify the market cap as it depends on the market demand and very little to do with how many BTC have been created.
As far as holding money.. it is in general preferred to have it in a bank, but a bank has downsides too.
You are also wrong about bitcoins being frozen etc. It is not possible due to the protocol. You own your account in a mathematical sense, not in a 'the government says you do' sense.
The market cap could and should have begun at a much higher level, rather than the inventor simply mining the first few coins and releasing the software to the public, he could have sold the idea to private investors so the system could have initiated with a baseline value.
E.g., if he/they had mined the first million coins and found investors (crowd funding?) to buy them at $1 each, with a contractual pledge that they could be bought back any time for a small (say $.02 profit) not only would the market cap had begun at $1M rather than $5, there would have been a 'reserve bank' of 1M coins available at a set price to prevent artificial inflation caused by speculative investors, bitcoin could have held a steady value and had a reasonable chance of becoming a legitimate currency.
As it was released, the only opportunity for that to occur now would be for some government or billionaire to buy up $50M or so worth of coins and set up a reserve type exchange, with no profit motive and essentially defeating the purpose of a peer-to-peer encrypted currency, otherwise the price of bitcoin will continue to rise and occasionally fall like a kite in the wind (until the government shuts it down).
As to seizures, the fact that it's encrypted on your computer doesn't prevent the government from seizing your computer, sure if you make all your illicit transactions on an anonymous TOR network that is unlikely, but if they do find probably cause to search your computer (setting up a sting silkroad seller account themselves, e.g.), the process for getting a seizure order would be no different than seizing your bank account.
TAMILLER,
Thanks for coming over from 2+2 and bringing some solid posts.
You don't grasp the incentive system that has made the whole thing grow. If someone just like made bitcoins in a vacuum I don't think there would be any reason for anyone to buy them. The way they were released lets the market cap be determined by the actual market and not some artificial means. Originally you said something different, now you are saying bitcoin's approach is wrong. An individual bitcoin's value is not meant to be pegged by anything. That is why your original argument didn't make sense, as the 'market cap' will be whatever the market demands. If you think 1 bitcoin costs too much, then you can use a small fraction of one in a transaction. I don't understand why having a a million dollar cap at the very start would make any difference down the road....
The market cap could and should have begun at a much higher level, rather than the inventor simply mining the first few coins and releasing the software to the public, he could have sold the idea to private investors so the system could have initiated with a baseline value.
E.g., if he/they had mined the first million coins and found investors (crowd funding?) to buy them at $1 each, with a contractual pledge that they could be bought back any time for a small (say $.02 profit) not only would the market cap had begun at $1M rather than $5, there would have been a 'reserve bank' of 1M coins available at a set price to prevent artificial inflation caused by speculative investors, bitcoin could have held a steady value and had a reasonable chance of becoming a legitimate currency.
As it was released, the only opportunity for that to occur now would be for some government or billionaire to buy up $50M or so worth of coins and set up a reserve type exchange, with no profit motive and essentially defeating the purpose of a peer-to-peer encrypted currency, otherwise the price of bitcoin will continue to rise and occasionally fall like a kite in the wind (until the government shuts it down).
As to seizures, the fact that it's encrypted on your computer doesn't prevent the government from seizing your computer, sure if you make all your illicit transactions on an anonymous TOR network that is unlikely, but if they do find probably cause to search your computer (setting up a sting silkroad seller account themselves, e.g.), the process for getting a seizure order would be no different than seizing your bank account.
You talk of 'selling the system' but that is not what bitcoins are about, as they are decentralized. I'm not sure what you are proposing, but it seems to be something radically different from what BTCs are. This system let the btc's be seeded to those who were interested, and those people made a market for them which has continued to grow.
It doesn't have to be encrypted on your computer. It can be on a piece of paper. Anything can be seized by the government, but some things are obviously more difficult than others. A piece of paper can be in my hand, like a handgun. That is not easily seized. If someone steals my computer with my bitcoin wallet, they do not have access to my bitcoins. Infact, I can go to another computer and access them. Contrast this to a bank account which is never in my hands. The account is always in the bank's hands at a known location. The procedures wouldn't be similar at all except they would likely have the word 'seizure' in the title. No offense, but you're quite clueless about this whole concept.
what is stopping the government from setting up "Stores" and selling items, and when someone pays with bitcoins, they dont ship the product?
seems like if people start getting "ripped off", word spreads, value goes down, and there is NO ONE to police the situation.
This is such a fail question on so many levels I don't know where to start.
I'd ask a similar question of a million other things....... 'What is stopping the government from ........' What branch would do this? Why? What would they sell ? Why would people not be wised up? Why do you think the price wouldn't just keep going up on the ones in circulation ? Why would people getting ripped off on a site stop people from using bitcoins? Would it stop people from using some other currency ? What would be the political fallout from this when discovered? Why does "the government" even care so much? (Contrary to popular opinion, government is not a single thinking entity, but is just an organization at the whim of whomever controls whatever branch.) Yer a nut.
Bitcoins are still going to be covered by civilian court system, just like any other contract/agreement. If I said I owe you 3 bitcoins and you gave me something in trade, you can sue me for the value of those 3 bitcoin. Unless you know otherwise.. and that seems doubtful.
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