Think the American criminal justice system is bad? Check out Norway...

[Dan Druff]

This is an old story, but one I noticed again because the Sandy Hook shooter is now being said to have admired Norwegian killer Anders Breivik.

Breivik killed 77 people in a murder spree in July, 2011. In August, 2012, he was sentenced to just 21 years in prison, the maximum allowed by Norwegian law.

Defenders of this law note that this is not a hard 21-years-and-out term, but rather a reevaluation period. If, in 21 years, he is judged to be a danger to society, he is imprisoned another 5 years, and that process repeats. Many say that he will never be released from prison because he will always be a "danger".

But this is still a joke.

The fact that anyone could murder 77 people and have a chance to be released (especially if they "find Jesus" and reform, or some other bullshit) is an absolute joke.

Many in Europe criticize the US for having the death penalty, but the above is what happens if we seek to emulate the European model of justice.

[Wiganer]

You're not European, so you shouldn't comment on our ways.

[Sloppy Joe]

Our penal system is still arguably worse.

The death penalty is indefensible and privatized prisons are laughably unjust.

[SrslySirius]

We lead the world in incarceration rate by a wide margin, with about 1% of our population behind bars. It's kind of hard to laugh at Norway for locking up a mass murder for 21 years.

[Dan Druff]

We lead the world in incarceration rate by a wide margin, with about 1% of our population behind bars. It's kind of hard to laugh at Norway for locking up a mass murder for 21 years.

How many of these incarcerations do you think are wrongful (that is, locking up innocent men) or overly harsh?

I would say very few.

If you want to comment that American culture is violent compared to most other first-world countries, I will agree.

However, I don't care what the incarceration rate is. If people are committing the crimes, they need to do the time. Perhaps there should be some reform in our prison systems themselves, but ultimately it is each individual responsible for his own actions, and only has himself to blame when he commits crimes and serves time for them.

[Lord of the Fraud]

Europe is a continent that consists of around 50 "independent" countries that all have their own judiciary system.

So comparing Norway's legal system to any other Euro country is like comparing your system to Bolivia's.


But I do agree their sentencing laws do need fixing. And after this unprecedented massacre I believe they will.


Also Anders Breivik will never see the light of day again, regardless of what he ever says in any parole hearing.

[Dan Druff]

Our penal system is still arguably worse.

The death penalty is indefensible and privatized prisons are laughably unjust.

I agree that the privatized prison system needs to either be abolished or greatly reformed.

However, the death penalty is not "indefensible". It is the purest form of justice for the worst possible crime (murder). If you intentionally and unjustifiably take the life of a human being, you do not deserve to go on existing. Period.

I agree that the death penalty does need some reform, such as abolishing it for all circumstantial cases, as well as raising the "certainty" of guilt that the jury must find for conviction. However, thanks to advanced DNA techniques and other forensic evidence, the incidence of wrongful conviction in capital cases is the lowest ever, and with the reforms I mentioned, could approach or reach zero.

[Dan Druff]

Europe is a continent that consists of around 50 "independent" countries that all have their own judiciary system.

So comparing Norway's legal system to any other Euro country is like comparing your system to Bolivia's.


But I do agree their sentencing laws do need fixing. And after this unprecedented massacre I believe they will.


Also Anders Breivik will never see the light of day again, regardless of what he ever says in any parole hearing.

I am aware of this, but one thing most Europeans have in common is a disdain for the American justice system, and the belief that we are equivalent to third-world barbarians for putting our citizens to death.

Then an Anders Breivik case comes along, and it's realized how poor and unjust some of Europe's own systems really are.

American history is filled with violence throughout. The overall culture here has always been more violent than of most first-world European countries. This something that has been ingrained for hundreds of years, and can't just be fixed by social programs or other governmental preventative measures. When you see reports of this violence day after day, your attitude can be become different than in a place where it's just an occasional thing.

There has actually been a marked improvement in the violent crime rate in America (after peaking in 1990), but it's very long time away (if ever) before violence stops being commonplace in America.

Removing legalized gun ownership is not the answer, either.

[SetofKs]

I'm almost positive their system is better than ours. Saw a documentary about some country over there that has much lighter sentences, the prisons are what we would call country clubs, and they let prisoners leave for the weekend occasionally to visit family and what not (they nearly never run). Anyway that country almost never had repeat offenders. Almost every offender in Merica reoffends. Not sure what country that was or what the stats were, but if you look at Norway's stats (which I'm too lazy to do) I would assume their justice system works better than our at correcting offenders.

And who cares if this guy is up for parole in 21 years? He'll never be free. Gives him something to shoot for at least, and a reason not to act a fool in prison.

[tony bagadonuts]

Gives him something to shoot for at least

I see what you did there

[SrslySirius]

We lead the world in incarceration rate by a wide margin, with about 1% of our population behind bars. It's kind of hard to laugh at Norway for locking up a mass murder for 21 years.

How many of these incarcerations do you think are wrongful (that is, locking up innocent men) or overly harsh?

I would say very few.

If you want to comment that American culture is violent compared to most other first-world countries, I will agree.

However, I don't care what the incarceration rate is. If people are committing the crimes, they need to do the time. Perhaps there should be some reform in our prison systems themselves, but ultimately it is each individual responsible for his own actions, and only has himself to blame when he commits crimes and serves time for them.

Actually, an enormous percentage of our prison population is made up of nonviolent offenders. This is probably why 25% of all the prisoners in the world reside in the land of the free.

[BCR]

imo, some of the countries in Europe are too soft on violent crime, but far better than the US on non-violent crime. What makes our system absurd is the number of people in jail on drug-related offenses that aren't major drug dealers, simply the addicted and small timers. Throwing 7-10 years on an 18 year old kid for $500 worth of drugs is far more barbaric than putting to death a murderer imo. Murder ,rape, crimes against children, I prefer the US. On most other things, I prefer the European justice system. Half the prison populace in the US in is jail for drug-related offenses. Probably 75% are drug-related when you account for those incarcerated for other crimes meant to obtain money to acquire drugs. I am no fan of the troubles and pain that drugs bring, but our system will continue to be a joke until we reform the way we approach our "drug war."

[adamantium]

This is an old story, but one I noticed again because the Sandy Hook shooter is now being said to have admired Norwegian killer Anders Breivik.

Breivik killed 77 people in a murder spree in July, 2011. In August, 2012, he was sentenced to just 21 years in prison, the maximum allowed by Norwegian law.

Defenders of this law note that this is not a hard 21-years-and-out term, but rather a reevaluation period. If, in 21 years, he is judged to be a danger to society, he is imprisoned another 5 years, and that process repeats. Many say that he will never be released from prison because he will always be a "danger".

But this is still a joke.

The fact that anyone could murder 77 people and have a chance to be released (especially if they "find Jesus" and reform, or some other bullshit) is an absolute joke.

Many in Europe criticize the US for having the death penalty, but the above is what happens if we seek to emulate the European model of justice.

No one that kills 77 people here will never get out of prision no matter how many jesuses found, do you really not get this, I just wonder what is the joke is that we dont kill him? or that you actually think there is some possible way he will ever see the light of day.

Everything about this country is better than yours.

[SrslySirius]

imo, some of the countries in Europe are too soft on violent crime, but far better than the US on non-violent crime. What makes our system absurd is the number of people in jail on drug-related offenses that aren't major drug dealers, simply the addicted and small timers. Throwing 7-10 years on an 18 year old kid for $500 worth of drugs is far more barbaric than putting to death a murderer imo. Murder ,rape, crimes against children, I prefer the US. On most other things, I prefer the European justice system. Half the prison populace in the US in is jail for drug-related offenses. Probably 75% are drug-related when you account for those incarcerated for other crimes meant to obtain money to acquire drugs. I am no fan of the troubles and pain that drugs bring, but our system will continue to be a joke until we reform the way we approach our "drug war."

Well said. I'm basically neutral on the death penalty. I don't really care either way, and I don't mind stiff penalties for very violent offences.

But you can't deny that it's pretty sick to send millions of nonviolent offenders to for-profit prisons for insane lengths of time. It's also very expensive.

[Deal]

No one that kills 77 people here will never get out of prision no matter how many jesuses found, do you really not get this, I just wonder what is the joke is that we dont kill him? or that you actually think there is some possible way he will ever see the light of day.

Everything about this country is better than yours.

I agree, mostly. Tell us about the porn industry in Norway. I might have found a hole in your case.

[adamantium]

No one that kills 77 people here will never get out of prision no matter how many jesuses found, do you really not get this, I just wonder what is the joke is that we dont kill him? or that you actually think there is some possible way he will ever see the light of day.

Everything about this country is better than yours.

I agree, mostly. Tell us about the porn industry in Norway. I might have found a hole in your case.

who needs porn when sweden is an hour away

[Rollo Tomasi]

This is an old story, but one I noticed again because the Sandy Hook shooter is now being said to have admired Norwegian killer Anders Breivik.

Breivik killed 77 people in a murder spree in July, 2011. In August, 2012, he was sentenced to just 21 years in prison, the maximum allowed by Norwegian law.

Defenders of this law note that this is not a hard 21-years-and-out term, but rather a reevaluation period. If, in 21 years, he is judged to be a danger to society, he is imprisoned another 5 years, and that process repeats. Many say that he will never be released from prison because he will always be a "danger".

But this is still a joke.

The fact that anyone could murder 77 people and have a chance to be released (especially if they "find Jesus" and reform, or some other bullshit) is an absolute joke.

Many in Europe criticize the US for having the death penalty, but the above is what happens if we seek to emulate the European model of justice.

No one that kills 77 people here will never get out of prision no matter how many jesuses found, do you really not get this, I just wonder what is the joke is that we dont kill him? or that you actually think there is some possible way he will ever see the light of day.

Everything about this country is better than yours.

your Country would be speaking German right now and living under the Third Reich or actually more likely a Provence of Russia if it wasn't for the United States

[Baron Von Strucker]

No one that kills 77 people here will never get out of prision no matter how many jesuses found, do you really not get this, I just wonder what is the joke is that we dont kill him? or that you actually think there is some possible way he will ever see the light of day.

Everything about this country is better than yours.

your Country would be speaking German right now and living under the Third Reich or actually more likely a Provence of Russia if it wasn't for the United States

O Please not this shit again. German is a good language to know in Europe regardless very easy to learn and extremely similar to English. If it wasent for Europe you wold be hunkerd down in your native country speaking gibberish and selling pencels. And northamerica would still have buffalo and clean air.

Speaking Russian is a good asset because of the large population. But I still refuse to speak this language ecause it was forsed on us as children.

[Lord of the Fraud]

Europe is a continent that consists of around 50 "independent" countries that all have their own judiciary system.

So comparing Norway's legal system to any other Euro country is like comparing your system to Bolivia's.


But I do agree their sentencing laws do need fixing. And after this unprecedented massacre I believe they will.


Also Anders Breivik will never see the light of day again, regardless of what he ever says in any parole hearing.

I am aware of this, but one thing most Europeans have in common is a disdain for the American justice system, and the belief that we are equivalent to third-world barbarians for putting our citizens to death.

Then an Anders Breivik case comes along, and it's realized how poor and unjust some of Europe's own systems really are.

American history is filled with violence throughout. The overall culture here has always been more violent than of most first-world European countries. This something that has been ingrained for hundreds of years, and can't just be fixed by social programs or other governmental preventative measures. When you see reports of this violence day after day, your attitude can be become different than in a place where it's just an occasional thing.

There has actually been a marked improvement in the violent crime rate in America (after peaking in 1990), but it's very long time away (if ever) before violence stops being commonplace in America.

Removing legalized gun ownership is not the answer, either.

Anders Breivik is NEVER getting out. But yes it does seem ridiculous that in 21 years he technically COULD get released. He got the maximum sentence that their system would allow but I'd be amazed if they didn't fix that to "life means life". Shit like that takes times though.


I'm a total hypocrite when it comes to the death penalty. Sometimes it doesn't sit right with me at all. Like for instance, a man can be put to death over a split second of rage that could result in a random stranger losing their life. Now it goes without saying that the victims family deserve some retribution and justice. But to then see another man's family have to suffer watching THEIR loved one on death row for years on end, and then have to watch him be killed strapped to a bed is totally fucking barbaric imo.

But then I'll see a crime in my own country were even the death penalty would seem lenient. And I'm thinking, why the fuck can't we put this animal to death?

It's a really messed up subject to which there is no clear answer to at all. and we can't have it both ways.


I think a few in this thread have pointed out why parts of your justice system is beyond ridiculous in lots of instances. Putting young people behind bars for decades for non violent crimes is a crime in itself imo.

[adamantium]

No one that kills 77 people here will never get out of prision no matter how many jesuses found, do you really not get this, I just wonder what is the joke is that we dont kill him? or that you actually think there is some possible way he will ever see the light of day.

Everything about this country is better than yours.

your Country would be speaking German right now and living under the Third Reich or actually more likely a Provence of Russia if it wasn't for the United States

LOL you are talking like that would have been a bad thing