Mistakes NL players make at limit, and vice-versa

[Dan Druff]

Can you kill NL games but suck at limit? Or do you have the opposite problem? Perhaps consider the fact that you might not be adjusting right. Take a look at these mistakes NL and Limit players make when playing the "other" game...


Mistakes NL players make playing limit:


1) Bluff-raising an opponent who appears to be holding top pair or better.

2) Not giving up on a bluff attempt when an opponent re-raises, but instead re-bluffing by raising again.

3) Failure to value bet. Constant fear about overcards, straight draws, and flush draws beating you, even when it's checked to you in a heads-up pot.

4) Obsession with trapping. Always slowplaying big hands until the turn or river, even multiway.

5) Folding decent/good hands too easily when raised on the flop or turn.

6) Being afraid to reraise without the nuts.



Mistakes Limit players make playing NL:

1) Overvaluing AK and other big cards.

2) Overvaluing suited connectors.

3) Refusing to fold top pair for large bets.

4) Love for hands like J9, QJ, AT, and KJ, which can play well at limit but often lead to expensive trap situations in NL.

5) Obsession with value-betting, often finding them costing more money than they make.

6) Over-defense of the blinds to pre-flop raises, especially from early position.

7) Giving too many free cards/showdowns by expecting opponent to value-bet scare card on turn or river.

8) Playing too many hands pre-flop, especially in a full ring game.

[BCR]

Can you kill NL games but suck at limit? Or do you have the opposite problem? Perhaps consider the fact that you might not be adjusting right. Take a look at these mistakes NL and Limit players make when playing the "other" game...


Mistakes NL players make playing limit:


1) Bluff-raising an opponent who appears to be holding top pair or better.

2) Not giving up on a bluff attempt when an opponent re-raises, but instead re-bluffing by raising again.

3) Failure to value bet. Constant fear about overcards, straight draws, and flush draws beating you, even when it's checked to you in a heads-up pot.

4) Obsession with trapping. Always slowplaying big hands until the turn or river, even multiway.

5) Folding decent/good hands too easily when raised on the flop or turn.

6) Being afraid to reraise without the nuts.



Mistakes Limit players make playing NL:

1) Overvaluing AK and other big cards.

2) Overvaluing suited connectors.

3) Refusing to fold top pair for large bets.

4) Love for hands like J9, QJ, AT, and KJ, which can play well at limit but often lead to expensive trap situations in NL.

5) Obsession with value-betting, often finding them costing more money than they make.

6) Over-defense of the blinds to pre-flop raises, especially from early position.

7) Giving too many free cards/showdowns by expecting opponent to value-bet scare card on turn or river.

8) Playing too many hands pre-flop, especially in a full ring game.

I don't disagree with number 5, but that was more common back in '05-'07 online when limit players were making the transition, and even then, it was that they didn't value-bet wisely, and you could quickly glean their range of holdings based upon the size of their bet often. At that time, you could raise them just enough that they'd almost always call, as limit poker is a rote game, and they are used to calling that last bet in a big pot, when it is rarely good in a NL game. So you're right about being obsessed with it, because they weren't thinking what they were opening up with that value-bet, and leaving themselves with tough decisions, but in general, it was the execution, and that limit players weren't good enough hand readers at that time.

I was busy as hell down in Florida the past 5 months, but I played a lot of live poker whenever I had a chance, and the most missed value, even at mid-stakes, was the failure to value-bet thinly. This applies to all players, not just limit players, as I didn't know who, if any, were converted limit players being unfamiliar with the player pool and little limit action spread.

The biggest failure among all NL players is the inability to bet fold when faced with a raise. If you have a good table image, you should occasionally be bet-folding, yet I didn't see a lot of even good players doing it. If you're a good hand-reader, you should be thinly value-betting a lot of hands, but I didn't see even the better players doing that nearly enough, and for those guys playing a lot of hours, that is going to add up huge in the hourly. Down there, or anywhere, it's of course read-dependent, and you don't want to thinly value-bet old solid players, or really good players, who will value-own you by simply calling down with their 2 pair, but you definitely want to thinly value-bet the old men and marginal players with polarized ranges who see you splashing around a lot and will call down a lot of value-bets when you make a hand. You will have to bet-fold on occasion, because scared money is rarely making a move, but it's more profitable in the long run to put those thin bets out, yet I wanted to smack a bunch of otherwise smart kids who I saw continually fail to do it in live games. They were so worried about getting a move made on them after playing on the internet for so long against good competition, that they weren't recognizing how weak the competition they were playing often was.

[Corrigan]

Mistakes Limit players make playing NL:

#1 biggest against good/perceptive opponents imo is continuation betting way too much regardless of board/opponent's range

[Dan Druff]

Mistakes Limit players make playing NL:

#1 biggest against good/perceptive opponents imo is continuation betting way too much regardless of board/opponent's range

Yeah I forgot that one. I was guilty of this for awhile, until some good NL players made fun of me for it, and I changed.

True story.

[pokerclann1]

ive seen nl players over play medium pocket pairs in limit with bad outcomes alot of the time, overated hand imo cos alot of the time you setmining cos it plays relatively bad against drawey hands esp the high 1 gappers and suited connectors.

[SpewArtist]

Limit hold'em? Never heard of it.

[limitles]

Limit hold'em? Never heard of it.

Fuck, totally forgot about bluffing

[ShawnFanningsLimpDick]

Limit players check-raise for the wrong reasons in NL It's a tremendously strong move in NL that reps a big hand. They also don't realize the importance of bluffing as no-one folds in Limit

[Dan Druff]

Limit players check-raise for the wrong reasons in NL It's a tremendously strong move in NL that reps a big hand. They also don't realize the importance of bluffing as no-one folds in Limit

These are good points, and I will admit that I sometimes make the mistake of check-raising in NL and running people off too easily.

[ErickAA]

Good thread and good observations IMO.

I play limit and I agree the situation (bad) no limit players cost themselves a lot of $$ is checking their top pair/overpair hands on the turn/river when the straight or flush card comes. Time and time again I will see a no limit player play their overpair hand too passively when a straight or flush card hits the board, and lose a ton of value against guys with 2-9 outs who would call their bet.

[Jayjami]

As someone who has played both, the biggest mistake NL players make in limit is playing too many hands in early position. You have to be very tight UTG and UTG+1. You just don't have the implied odds to constantly play speculative hands out of position. It just gets you into trouble and puts you to the task of making tough decisions throughout the hand and you don't have that extra weapon of coming over the top of someone when you are out of position in limit.

[Daly]

Good thread and good observations IMO.

I play limit and I agree the situation (bad) no limit players cost themselves a lot of $$ is checking their top pair/overpair hands on the turn/river when the straight or flush card comes. Time and time again I will see a no limit player play their overpair hand too passively when a straight or flush card hits the board, and lose a ton of value against guys with 2-9 outs who would call their bet.

You say that until he jams it back in your gook face.

[Dan Druff]

Good thread and good observations IMO.

I play limit and I agree the situation (bad) no limit players cost themselves a lot of $$ is checking their top pair/overpair hands on the turn/river when the straight or flush card comes. Time and time again I will see a no limit player play their overpair hand too passively when a straight or flush card hits the board, and lose a ton of value against guys with 2-9 outs who would call their bet.

Yes, or they get too afraid to re-raise when non-nut hands on the turn or river. Same general mistake.

[delaware]

playing 7 hours of no limit is like playing 14 hours of limit.stress leval doubles.