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Thread: state polls must be biased for Romney to win

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    state polls must be biased for Romney to win

    Unlike most media outlets that purposely show the race as closer than it actually is, 538.com, is one of the few websites I trust for accurate and educated opinions. As of Friday they have pretty much written off Romney.


    Check out the website for tons of interesting stats on the election and to see how romney peaked way too early and failed to capitalize on the first debate.

    http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/


    Nov. 2: For Romney to Win, State Polls Must Be Statistically Biased

    By NATE SILVER



    President Obama is now better than a 4-in-5 favorite to win the Electoral College, according to the FiveThirtyEight forecast. His chances of winning it increased to 83.7 percent on Friday, his highest figure since the Denver debate and improved from 80.8 percent on Thursday.

    Friday’s polling should make it easy to discern why Mr. Obama has the Electoral College advantage. There were 22 polls of swing states published Friday. Of these, Mr. Obama led in 19 polls, and two showed a tie. Mitt Romney led in just one of the surveys, a Mason-Dixon poll of Florida

    Although the fact that Mr. Obama held the lead in so many polls is partly coincidental — there weren’t any polls of North Carolina on Friday, for instance, which is Mr. Romney’s strongest battleground state — they nevertheless represent powerful evidence against the idea that the race is a “tossup.” A tossup race isn’t likely to produce 19 leads for one candidate and one for the other — any more than a fair coin is likely to come up heads 19 times and tails just once in 20 tosses. (The probability of a fair coin doing so is about 1 chance in 50,000.)

    Instead, Mr. Romney will have to hope that the coin isn’t fair, and instead has been weighted to Mr. Obama’s advantage. In other words, he’ll have to hope that the polls have been biased in Mr. Obama’s favor. (I recognize that ‘bias’ is a loaded term in political contexts. I’ll explain what I mean by it in a moment.)

    There are essentially three reasons that a poll might provide an inaccurate forecast of an upcoming election.

    The first is statistical sampling error: statistical error that comes from interviewing only a random sample of the population, rather than everyone. This is the type of error that is represented by the margin of error reported alongside a poll and it is reasonably easy to measure.

    If you have just one poll of a state, the statistical sampling error will be fairly high. For instance, a poll of 800 voters has a margin of error in estimating one candidate’s vote share of about plus or minus 3.5 percentage points. In a two-candidate race, however, the margin of error in estimating the difference between the candidates (as in: “Obama leads Romney by five points”) is roughly twice that, plus or minus seven percentage points, since a vote for one candidate is necessarily a vote against the other one.

    The margin of error is much reduced, however, when you aggregate different polls together, since that creates a much larger sample size. In Ohio, for example, there have been 17,615 interviews of likely voters in polls conducted there within the past 10 days. That yields a margin of error, in measuring the difference between the candidates, of about 1.5 percentage point — smaller than Mr. Obama’s current lead in the polling average there.

    In other words, Mr. Obama’s current lead in Ohio almost certainly does not reflect random sampling error alone. The same is true in states like Iowa, Nevada, Wisconsin and others that would suffice for him to win 270 electoral votes. (Mr. Obama’s more tenuous leads in Colorado and Virginia, and Mr. Romney’s thin lead in Florida, potentially could be a product of sampling error.)

    So why, then, do we have Mr. Obama as “only” an 83.7 percent favorite to win the Electoral College, and not close to 100 percent?

    This is because of the other potential sources of error in polling. One is that a poll is a snapshot in time — even if you’re sampling the voters accurately, their opinions could change again before Election Day.

    This is a huge concern if, for instance, you’re conducting a poll in June of an election year. Michael Dukakis led the polls for much of the spring in 1988; John Kerry did so for some of the summer in 2004; even John McCain, in 2008, had a few moments when he may have been ahead in the polling average.

    But it’s now the weekend before the election. The vast majority of voters are locked into their choices. In some states, in fact, a fair number of them have already voted. (Perhaps about 20 percent of the vote nationwide has been cast, and the tally may be as high as two-thirds of the vote in some states like Nevada.)

    Nor are there any more guaranteed opportunities for news or campaign events to intervene to alter the dynamics of the campaign, at least not at the national level. The debates have been held; the conventions occurred long ago; the vice-presidential nominees have been picked. The last major economic news of the campaign came on Friday, with the release of the October jobs numbers. A negative print on the payrolls report, or a sharp rise in the unemployment rate, could have altered the campaign, but instead the jobs report was a pretty good one. (I don’t expect the jobs report to produce much of a boost for Mr. Obama, but there’s little in the report that would aid Mr. Romney.) The recovery from Hurricane Sandy is still a developing story, but not one that seems to be playing to Mr. Romney’s benefit.

    There is the remote possibility of a true “black swan” event, like a national-security crisis or a major scandal unfolding at the last minute, but the chance for news events to affect the campaign is now greatly diminished. And most of the polls that we’ve seen over the past several days are the last ones that polling firms will be releasing into the field.

    That leaves only the final source of polling error, which is the potential that the polls might simply have been wrong all along because of statistical bias.

    Polling is a difficult enterprise nowadays. Some estimate that only about 10 percent of voters respond even to the best surveys, and the polls that take shortcuts pay for it with lower-still response rates, perhaps no better than 2 to 5 percent. The pollsters are making a leap of faith that the 10 percent of voters they can get on the phone and get to agree to participate are representative of the entire population. The polling was largely quite accurate in 2004, 2008 and 2010, but there is no guarantee that this streak will continue. Most of the “house effects” that you see introduced in the polls — the tendency of certain polling firms to show results that are consistently more favorable for either the Democrat or the Republican — reflect the different assumptions that pollsters make about how to get a truly representative sample and how to separate out the people who will really vote from ones who say they will, but won’t.

    But many of the pollsters are likely to make similar assumptions about how to measure the voter universe accurately. This introduces the possibility that most of the pollsters could err on one or another side — whether in Mr. Obama’s direction, or Mr. Romney’s. In a statistical sense, we would call this bias: that the polls are not taking an accurate sample of the voter population. If there is such a bias, furthermore, it is likely to be correlated across different states, especially if they are demographically similar. If either of the candidates beats his polls in Wisconsin, he is also likely to do so in Minnesota.

    The FiveThirtyEight forecast accounts for this possibility. Its estimates of the uncertainty in the race are based on how accurate the polls have been under real-world conditions since 1968, and not the idealized assumption that random sampling error alone accounts for entire reason for doubt.

    To be exceptionally clear: I do not mean to imply that the polls are biased in Mr. Obama’s favor. But there is the chance that they could be biased in either direction. If they are biased in Mr. Obama’s favor, then Mr. Romney could still win; the race is close enough. If they are biased in Mr. Romney’s favor, then Mr. Obama will win by a wider-than-expected margin, but since Mr. Obama is the favorite anyway, this will not change who sleeps in the White House on Jan. 20.
    My argument, rather, is this: we’ve about reached the point where if Mr. Romney wins, it can only be because the polls have been biased against him. Almost all of the chance that Mr. Romney has in the FiveThirtyEight forecast, about 16 percent to win the Electoral College, reflects this possibility.

    Yes, of course: most of the arguments that the polls are necessarily biased against Mr. Romney reflect little more than wishful thinking.

    Nevertheless, these arguments are potentially more intellectually coherent than the ones that propose that the leader in the race is “too close to call.” It isn’t. If the state polls are right, then Mr. Obama will win the Electoral College. If you can’t acknowledge that after a day when Mr. Obama leads 19 out of 20 swing-state polls, then you should abandon the pretense that your goal is to inform rather than entertain the public.

    But the state polls may not be right. They could be biased. Based on the historical reliability of polls, we put the chance that they will be biased enough to elect Mr. Romney at 16 percent.
    Last edited by BetCheckBet; 11-03-2012 at 07:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BetCheckBet View Post
    Unlike most media outlets that purposely show the race as closer than it actually is, 538.com, is one of the few websites I trust for accurate and educated opinions. As of Friday they have pretty much written off Romney.
    .
    Dirty B is that you??

    LOLOLOL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalBornHustler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by BetCheckBet View Post
    Unlike most media outlets that purposely show the race as closer than it actually is, 538.com, is one of the few websites I trust for accurate and educated opinions. As of Friday they have pretty much written off Romney.
    .
    Dirty B is that you??

    LOLOLOL.

    Interested why not a fan? The amount of research these guys put in is amazing.

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    Gold Anal_Hershiser's Avatar
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    Lol. I read a story earlier today that basically said Romney had it wrapped up. Not saying either story is accurate. But it's funny how both sides have been crowned the winner depending on who's writing the article. Nobody knows who's gonna win. It's close, and both have a shot. This isn't 2008 when the outcome was a foregone conclusion.
    Quote Originally Posted by 408Mike View Post
    Vegas is there any chance I can buy you some steaks and mail them to you or something?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of the Fraud View Post
    I do believe Iraq was a huge mistake
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of the Fraud View Post
    Why the fuck is the world (cough US) allowing these backward fuckers have nukes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anal_Hershiser View Post
    Lol. I read a story earlier today that basically said Romney had it wrapped up. Not saying either story is accurate. But it's funny how both sides have been crowned the winner depending on who's writing the article. Nobody knows who's gonna win. It's close, and both have a shot. This isn't 2008 when the outcome was a foregone conclusion.
    FYI this site had romney at 40% chance a few weeks ago and was looking very strong. I've found them to be pretty much as unbiased as you can get if terms of actual editorials. Any baseball fans should be aware that the guy who runs it is a strong sabermetrics supporter. Their predictions are pretty much 100% based on formulas and little actual opinion (and they have a very good track record).

    Pay special attention to the last comment of the article...


    Nevertheless, these arguments are potentially more intellectually coherent than the ones that propose that the leader in the race is “too close to call.” It isn’t. If the state polls are right, then Mr. Obama will win the Electoral College. If you can’t acknowledge that after a day when Mr. Obama leads 19 out of 20 swing-state polls, then you should abandon the pretense that your goal is to inform rather than entertain the public.

    But the state polls may not be right. They could be biased. Based on the historical reliability of polls, we put the chance that they will be biased enough to elect Mr. Romney at 16 percent.

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    Nate Silver is a former Daily Kos far left wing blogger here is a
    non-partisan prediction from a respected political analyist

    "Michael Barone: Going out on a limb: Romney beats Obama, handily

    November 2, 2012 | 4:58 pm

    Fundamentals usually prevail in American elections. That's bad news for Barack Obama. True, Americans want to think well of their presidents and many think it would be bad if Americans were perceived as rejecting the first black president.

    But it's also true that most voters oppose Obama's major policies and consider unsatisfactory the very sluggish economic recovery -- Friday's jobs report showed an unemployment uptick.

    Also, both national and target state polls show that independents, voters who don't identify themselves as Democrats or Republicans, break for Romney.

    That might not matter if Democrats outnumbered Republicans by 39 to 32 percent, as they did in the 2008 exit poll. But just about every indicator suggests that Republicans are more enthusiastic about voting -- and about their candidate -- than they were in 2008, and Democrats are less so.

    That's been apparent in early or absentee voting, in which Democrats trail their 2008 numbers in target states Virginia, Ohio, Iowa and Nevada.

    The Obama campaign strategy, from the beginning, has recognized these handicaps, running barrages of early anti-Romney ads in states that Obama carried narrowly. But other states, not so heavily barraged, have come into contention.

    Which candidate will get the electoral votes of the target states? I'll go out on a limb and predict them, in ascending order of 2008 Obama percentages -- fully aware that I'm likely to get some wrong.

    Indiana (11 electoral votes). Uncontested. Romney.

    North Carolina (15 electoral votes). Obama has abandoned this target. Romney.

    Florida (29). The biggest target state has trended Romney since the Denver debate. I don't see any segment of the electorate favoring Obama more than in 2008, and I see some (South Florida Jews) favoring him less. Romney.

    Ohio (18). The anti-Romney auto bailout ads have Obama running well enough among blue-collar voters for him to lead most polls. But many polls anticipate a more Democratic electorate than in 2008. Early voting tells another story, and so does the registration decline in Cleveland's Cuyahoga County. In 2004, intensity among rural, small -town and evangelical voters, undetected by political reporters who don't mix in such circles, produced a narrow Bush victory. I see that happening again. Romney.

    Virginia (13). Post-debate polling mildly favors Romney, and early voting is way down in heavily Democratic Arlington, Alexandria, Richmond and Norfolk. Northern Virginia Asians may trend Romney. Romney.

    Colorado (9). Unlike 2008, registered Republicans outnumber registered Democrats, and more Republicans than Democrats have voted early. The Republican trend in 2010 was squandered by weak candidates for governor and senator. Not this time. Romney.

    Iowa (6). The unexpected Romney endorsements by the Des Moines Register and three other newspapers gave voice to buyer's remorse in a state Obama carried by 10 points. Democrats' traditional margin in early voting has declined. Romney.

    Minnesota (10). A surprise last-minute media buy for the Romney campaign. But probably a bridge too far. Obama.

    New Hampshire (4). Polls are very tight here. I think superior Republican intensity will prevail. Romney.

    Pennsylvania (20). Everyone would have picked Obama two weeks ago. I think higher turnout in pro-coal Western Pennsylvania and higher Republican percentages in the Philadelphia suburbs could produce a surprise. The Romney team evidently thinks so too. Their investment in TV time is too expensive to be a mere feint, and, as this is written, Romney is planning a Sunday event in Bucks County outside Philly. Wobbling on my limb, Romney.

    Nevada (6). Democratic early-voting turnout is down from 2008 in Las Vegas' Clark County, 70 percent of the state. But the casino unions' turnout machine on Election Day re-elected an unpopular Harry Reid in 2010, and I think they'll get enough Latinos and Filipinos out this time. Obama.

    Wisconsin (10). Recent polling is discouraging for Republicans. But Gov. Scott Walker handily survived the recall effort in June with a great organizational push. Democrats depend heavily on margins in inner-city Milwaukee (population down) and the Madison university community. But early voting is down in university towns in other states. The Obama campaign is prepared to turn out a big student vote, but you don't see many Obama signs on campuses. Romney.

    Oregon (7), New Mexico (5), New Jersey (14). Uncontested. Obama.

    Michigan (16). Romney chose Pennsylvania, where there's no auto bailout issue. Obama.

    Bottom line: Romney 315, Obama 223. That sounds high for Romney. But he could drop Pennsylvania and Wisconsin and still win the election. Fundamentals."

    Michael Barone,The Examiner's senior political analyst, can be contacted at mbarone@washingtonexaminer.com. His column appears Wednesday and Sunday, and his stories and blog posts appear on washingtonexaminer.com.

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    [QUOTE=Rollo Tomasi;104339]Nate Silver is a former Daily Kos far left wing blogger here is a
    non-partisan prediction from a respected political analyist

    "QUOTE]
    Call him biased but based on his track record I'd bet serious money on his electoral college predictions over nearly any politcal analyst. Even rasmussen sought him out....

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    Conservatives don't like Realclearpolitics anymore?

    Good run though, Mitt. Just not quite good enough.

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    [QUOTE=BetCheckBet;104340]
    Quote Originally Posted by Rollo Tomasi View Post
    Nate Silver is a former Daily Kos far left wing blogger here is a
    non-partisan prediction from a respected political analyist

    "QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Rollo Tomasi View Post
    Call him biased but based on his track record I'd bet serious money on his electoral college predictions over nearly any politcal analyst. Even rasmussen sought him out....
    so if Romney has a 16% chance you have no problem giving me 5-1 correct

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    [QUOTE=Rollo Tomasi;104343]
    Quote Originally Posted by BetCheckBet View Post
    [B]

    so if Romney has a 16% chance you have no problem giving me 5-1 correct
    yes most likely. although I would prefer a bet ratio like 4-1 where I am actually making money. I feel I'm giving away too much at 5-1 when I'm sure lots of people out there would take 4-1 or even 3-1.

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    Platinum DirtyB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sloppy Joe View Post
    Conservatives don't like Realclearpolitics anymore?

    Good run though, Mitt. Just not quite good enough.
    Conservatives only want to hear information that reinforces their existing beliefs. If they had any grasp of statistics or math, they wouldn't be supporting Romney in the first place.

    In related news, the Republican Secretary of State in Ohio just ordered uncertified software patches to be put on voting machines in Democratic leaning districts.

    http://www.freepress.org/departments...y/19/2012/4768

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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyB View Post
    Conservatives only want to hear information that reinforces their existing beliefs.
    Gee, nobody has ever accused you of doing the exact same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Faduniak View Post
    Barry,

    I like you as a person, but it has come to the point that I have to ignore any of your posts until 2013. You have officially become the crazy religious guy that stands on his box with his bible in hand on college campuses telling everyone why they are going to die and go to hell.
    Go babble some more about how the Republicans are comparable to The Taliban. Please let there be one political thread without you jumping in to give Obama a rimjob.
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    Vegas is there any chance I can buy you some steaks and mail them to you or something?
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    I do believe Iraq was a huge mistake
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of the Fraud View Post
    Why the fuck is the world (cough US) allowing these backward fuckers have nukes.

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    Gold Corrigan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollo Tomasi View Post
    so if Romney has a 16% chance you have no problem giving me 5-1 correct

    The way you've been talking you think it's something like a dead heat/Romney is favored, yet you need 5-1?

    Pinnacle Sports (ie the site with the most accurate lines, being high-volume and low juice) has Obama at ~76%, which is all you really need to know

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    Gold Corrigan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anal_Hershiser View Post
    Lol. I read a story earlier today that basically said Romney had it wrapped up. Not saying either story is accurate. But it's funny how both sides have been crowned the winner depending on who's writing the article. Nobody knows who's gonna win. It's close, and both have a shot. This isn't 2008 when the outcome was a foregone conclusion.

    This is not true at all. As shown above you can make a ton of money right now if you think it is close to dead even. All of the betting sites have Obama being a substantial favorite.

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    Gold Anal_Hershiser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corrigan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Anal_Hershiser View Post
    Lol. I read a story earlier today that basically said Romney had it wrapped up. Not saying either story is accurate. But it's funny how both sides have been crowned the winner depending on who's writing the article. Nobody knows who's gonna win. It's close, and both have a shot. This isn't 2008 when the outcome was a foregone conclusion.

    This is not true at all. As shown above you can make a ton of money right now if you think it is close to dead even. All of the betting sites have Obama being a substantial favorite.
    Even if Obama is favored 75/25 at this point, a 25% chance is far more than McCain ever had. Obama has a realistic shot at losing. It may not be the probable outcome, but it is far from impossible. This crowning a winner a week before the election is so fucking old. Regardless of whatever new and fancy way that they say their poll is different than any other one. If you think that either candidate at this point has assumed victory or conceded defeat, I don't know what to tell you.
    Quote Originally Posted by 408Mike View Post
    Vegas is there any chance I can buy you some steaks and mail them to you or something?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of the Fraud View Post
    I do believe Iraq was a huge mistake
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of the Fraud View Post
    Why the fuck is the world (cough US) allowing these backward fuckers have nukes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anal_Hershiser View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Corrigan View Post


    This is not true at all. As shown above you can make a ton of money right now if you think it is close to dead even. All of the betting sites have Obama being a substantial favorite.
    Even if Obama is favored 75/25 at this point, a 25% chance is far more than McCain ever had. Obama has a realistic shot at losing. It may not be the probable outcome, but it is far from impossible. This crowning a winner a week before the election is so fucking old. Regardless of whatever new and fancy way that they say their poll is different than any other one. If you think that either candidate at this point has assumed victory or conceded defeat, I don't know what to tell you.

    If Obama loses he will auto-ship it to the Supreme Court to overturn it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4Dragons View Post
    If Obama loses he will auto-ship it to the Supreme Court to overturn it.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Corrigan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 4Dragons View Post
    If Obama loses he will auto-ship it to the Supreme Court to overturn it.


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    Gold Corrigan's Avatar
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    I must say dragons - been nice having you back on the forum as a counterbalance to the slew of room-temperature IQ jackasses

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    Quote Originally Posted by Corrigan View Post
    I must say dragons - been nice having you back on the forum as a counterbalance to the slew of room-temperature IQ jackasses
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