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Thread: Cereus (AP/UB) makes agreement with DOJ -- but players likely won't get paid

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    Cereus (AP/UB) makes agreement with DOJ -- but players likely won't get paid

    The licencing body that operated both Absolute Poker and Ultimate Bet, under the parent organisation of Blanca Games, has released an advisory note confirming that they have reached an agreement with the Department of Justice.

    Following the events of Black Friday in April 2011, many online gambling organisations saw civil proceedings brought against them by the Department of Justice. Under the plans, the US Government will claim ownership to the companies’ assets including deposited funds, receivables, hardware and intellectual property. In return the civil charges against Absolute Poker, Ultimate Bet, Absolute Entertainment, S.A., Blanca Games Inc., Hoop & Javelin Holding Limited, Hoop Payment Solution Services Limited and Morning Bliss Overseas Limited will all be dropped. The settlement between The Kahnawake Gaming Commission and the DoJ must wait upon official court approval.

    The note states that all of Blanca Games assets are to go into liquidation after being handed over to the DoJ. The statement reads:

    “The proposed settlement requires all of Blanca’s assets to be forfeited to the United States. The US Marshall’s office will be mandated to liquidate Blanca’s assets. However, there will be no distribution of the net proceeds from the liquidation pending the resolution of claims filed by other parties who have asserted an ownership interest in Blanca’s assets.”

    This means that several companies will obtain funds following the sale of Blanca’s assets in priority to players who are awaiting repayment from money lost to the Absolute Poker or Ultimate Bet sites. The report does state however that should there be any funds left after these companies have received payment then players will be given the chance to claim their money back. The statement says:

    “If the court approves the settlement, and if there are Blanca assets remaining after the resolution of claims by other parties, it is anticipated that the court will provide a process for players to make claims against those assets.”

    However, it appears that players are being left in the dark regarding when and how they can claim their money back, as the statement goes on to say:

    “At present the commission has no information as to how players should make such a claim.”

    The Kahnawake Gaming Commission has dissociated themselves with the Blanca Games company, claiming that their gaming license expired on 2nd June and closing the statement by noting:

    “The commission no longer regulates Blanca.”

    Unfortunately, Blanca Games have not been as lucky as their rival Full Tilt Poker, who was accused of fraudulent activity by the DoJ before being acquired by their previous rival Poker Stars. It was the Poker Stars organisation who repaid all customers following negotiations with the DoJ. The Full Tilt Poker website is now expecting to be relaunched in November. It appears such actions will not be taken to ensure full repayment of Absolute Poker and Ultimate Bet players.
    http://www.thisisnorthdevon.co.uk/Ab...ail/story.html


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    Actually I don't feel bad for most of the players, because they shouldn't have continued playing there after the cheating scandals.

    The only ones I feel bad for are the UB/AP players who actually didn't know its history.

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    So shareholders (owners) are prioritised over deposit holders (players).

    Total bullshit. Supposed to be Department of Justice. No Justice here.

    Also link is broken. Not often North Devon gets the scoop on anything other than a purse theft at Bideford Tescos.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    BTW JACKDANIELS is the first one banned from the thread. He is accusing me of being "duped by a middle aged man who dresses like John Cena"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belly Buster View Post
    So shareholders (owners) are prioritised over deposit holders (players).

    Total bullshit. Supposed to be Department of Justice. No Justice here.

    Also link is broken. Not often North Devon gets the scoop on anything other than a purse theft at Bideford Tescos.
    They removed it.

    I wonder if AP threatened them with a lawsuit or something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Actually I don't feel bad for most of the players, because they shouldn't have continued playing there after the cheating scandals.

    The only ones I feel bad for are the UB/AP players who actually didn't know its history.
    You consistently put this belief forward. Why ? Why do you care that people were grinding the site ? You are more money driven than most from anything I can tell. YET you have consistently said people deserved to not be paid. What exactly is the grounds that you derive this belief from ?

    You come across as a woman who bitches about a skank because she is jealous that the skank is getting more action. Does the skank deserve something bad? Her jealous acquaintances might think so, but I fail to see it. Same thing with UB/AP. I had 4 figures on there (not impressive), but I also realize that a lot of it was fraudalent fake $$ which exists in a lot of poker games outside of B&M poker rooms.

    The fact that you openly wish honest players are fucked over speaks volumes of your own ethics. (Don't deny it either, I've heard it before and it has pissed me off)

    It is very possible that by bumhunting midstakes, I cost AP/UB more than they made off rake due to all the $100 a pop fraudsters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    This means that several companies will obtain funds following the sale of Blanca’s assets in priority to players who are awaiting repayment from money lost to the Absolute Poker or Ultimate Bet sites. The report does state however that should there be any funds left after these companies have received payment then players will be given the chance to claim their money back.
    We own the company. It was never your money - that's clear.

    Funny how art mirrors real life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    BTW JACKDANIELS is the first one banned from the thread. He is accusing me of being "duped by a middle aged man who dresses like John Cena"
    #FREEJACK #NEVERFORGET

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    siiiiiiigh, cant say im surprised

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    Quote Originally Posted by donkdowndonedied View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Actually I don't feel bad for most of the players, because they shouldn't have continued playing there after the cheating scandals.

    The only ones I feel bad for are the UB/AP players who actually didn't know its history.
    You consistently put this belief forward. Why ? Why do you care that people were grinding the site ? You are more money driven than most from anything I can tell. YET you have consistently said people deserved to not be paid. What exactly is the grounds that you derive this belief from ?

    You come across as a woman who bitches about a skank because she is jealous that the skank is getting more action. Does the skank deserve something bad? Her jealous acquaintances might think so, but I fail to see it. Same thing with UB/AP. I had 4 figures on there (not impressive), but I also realize that a lot of it was fraudalent fake $$ which exists in a lot of poker games outside of B&M poker rooms.

    The fact that you openly wish honest players are fucked over speaks volumes of your own ethics. (Don't deny it either, I've heard it before and it has pissed me off)

    It is very possible that by bumhunting midstakes, I cost AP/UB more than they made off rake due to all the $100 a pop fraudsters.
    No, you didn't cost them more, because you helped keep the site active.

    Here is a blog I wrote on April 22, 2011 about the death of AP/UB, and how everyone who supported them post-scandal deserves to lose out. Obviously ignore the part about Full Tilt committing a "victimless crime", because this was just a week after Black Friday, and nobody knew yet what had really happened there.


    It looks like things over at AP/UB are pretty much finished. They're grappling with the Department of Justice, apparently can't afford to let people cash out, and will probably go under rather soon. In addition, it came out that the original AP cheaters are still with the organization (big shocker!)

    A little known fact about me is that I like country music. Given that I'm Jewish, not from the South, have never lived in a rural area, and don't hunt or fish, I clearly don't fit the stereotype. However, I enjoy country music because it celebrates appreciating the simple things in life, treating people fairly, and valuing the importance of family and morality.

    In the '90s, country star Aaron Tippen sang the line, "Whatever you do today, you have to sleep with tonight." Not exactly deep or complex, but like many country lyrics, it's real and to the point.

    Sadly, many otherwise moral people left their scruples at the door when it came to UB. The poker community revolves around money. If you have it, you exist. If you don't have it, you disappear. This is true both on and off the felt. Unfortunately, most modern poker pros and poker media professionals were dependent upon the online poker sites to make a living. The sites provided the games, and they also had the deep pockets to shell out advertising dollars to the media and generous commissions to affiliates. With very few US-facing online poker sites of any consequence, could anyone really afford to turn their backs on one of the most lucrative sites?

    That question came up in 2007 and 2008, when the Absolute Poker and UB cheating scandals broke. Once it became clear that the culpability literally went all the way to the top, everyone involved with poker had an important decision to make. Do you disassociate yourself with AP/UB for what they've done, or do you quietly keep doing business with them if it will continue to make you money? It was the classic choice of morality versus greed. Unfortunately, with many in the poker community, greed won out.

    With the money in the poker economy getting increasingly scarce in a bad economy, I can understand how the choice became difficult. If you own a poker magazine, do you keep accepting expensive UB ads and softshoe around the scandals, or do you take the moral stance and risk your magazine's financial health? If you run a poker affiliate program, do you stop offering AP/UB signups, knowing that you could be leaving tens of thousands of dollars per month on the table? If you're a poker pro, do you stop playing at AP, even knowing that the games are much easier to beat than their equivalent counterparts on Pokerstars and Full Tilt?

    Still, if there's anything I've learned from my 18 years of listening to country music, it's that money isn't everything. Moral behavior should always trump the desire and greed for money -- or at least it should if you consider yourself a good person.

    UB is a criminal organization. A lot of language has been thrown around by the Department of Justice recently, making criminals of Pokerstars and Full Tilt, but those sites engaged in victimless crimes. The owners of UB are true criminals. They stole tens of millions of dollars from our community, attempted to cover it up, underpaid people when returning the stolen funds, and arranged a phony "sale" to cover up that the same cheaters still owned the company. They should have been blackballed from the community and left with empty tables, forcing them to dry up and die. Instead, the greed of many in the poker world kept them not just afloat, but established them as the third largest online poker site in the world.

    UB managed to keep its pre-scandal activity level due to all of the money-hungry enablers in the poker community.

    Cardplayer and Bluff Magazines could have refused their ads and aggressively reported on poker's biggest story ever. Instead they ran expensive, glossy, multi-page ads for these scummy sites, despite knowing they were walking their innocent readers into a site that unapologetically cheated everyone. Instead of being informed of the sites to watch out for, casual poker players saw those ads and signed up for the site that looked the coolest. Why did Cardplayer and Bluff betray their readers' trust like that? Greed.

    Large online poker affiliate sites could have removed AP and UB from their offerings, as a show of solidarity with their customer base that was cheated so offensively. Instead, they continued running large advertisements trumpeting 30% rakeback on those sites. New players chose AP and UB for the great rakeback deals, often unaware of the horrors that occurred there. Why did these affiliates continue to promote AP and UB? Greed.

    Professional poker grinders recognized that the games on AP and UB were still soft, and showed a high potential for profit. These players were stolen from directly and repeatedly lied to, but they forgave everything in order to put more money in their pockets. Without these dedicated grinders, few people would have waited around to start games, and the casual players wouldn't have bothered to deposit and play. Instead, these grinders basically turned themselves into unpaid prop players, keeping games running and always making sure that a casual fish could find someone to play. They showed AP/UB that no matter how much money was stolen, no matter how many lies were told, and no matter how much people were undercompensated, there would always be a number of short-sighted dopes coming back for the good games. These players essentially told AP/UB that it was okay to cheat. Why did they do it? Greed.

    Certain known players like Joe Sebok, Prahlad Friedman, and Maria Ho joined UB after the scandal, displaying a shocking lack of curiosity regarding the site's abhorrently dishonest and non-transparent handling of the post-scandal fallout. None were particularly curious as to who owned "new UB". All ignored reports that they were working for the same cheaters that stole from the community the first time. None seemed to care that hand histories were "missing", and none expressed any concern that the refunds weren't correct for that reason. They appeared in large print ads, enticing their fans to sign up to their incredibly shady network. Sebok threw away years of popularity and embarrassed his highly-trusted, very visible stepfather, Barry Greenstein. Prahlad contradicted his years of populist, anti-corporate activism and turned into the ultimate hypocrite, urging the average Joe to trust one of the sleaziest corporations of all time. Why would Sebok disgrace his family and reputation? Why would Prahlad betray his formerly strong anti-corporate, pro-little-guy values? Yup, once again it's greed.

    These people, these organizations, and everyone who continued working with or playing at UB betrayed the poker community. They chose personal gain over making an important statement. They chose to cover up the misdeeds of criminals over exposing them. They chose to lead unsuspecting casual players into the mouth of the beast, instead of warning them away from that path. They did it for the almighty dollar, and insultingly tried to convince us that we were the ones holding needless grudges and being paranoid.

    You see, that's the one thing worse than greed -- greed combined with the smug belief that you're also morally in the right with what you're doing. At least Bernie Madoff really knew he was cheating people. I believe that Sebok and Prahlad still believe that they did their due diligence to check out "new UB" before signing. I believe that Cardplayer and Bluff think they covered the scandals well, and shouldn't be blamed for simply accepting advertisements. I believe that the affiliates rationalize that people wanting to play on AP/UB will just use other affiliates to get rakeback, so they weren't actually bringing players to those sites. I believe that the professional grinders think that they were actually hurting UB by beating the site's fish and taking money out of the site's economy, not realizing that their very presence was what made people want to play in the first place.

    So for all of you who turned your back on the poker community when it came to giving AP and UB what they deserved, now you are getting what you deserve.

    The grinders will probably never get to cash out their funds. If they do, it will be aggravatingly tiny piece by piece, followed by the eventual abrupt shutdown of the site.

    The sponsored pros will now live with the scarlet UB on their forehead. Prahlad Friedman is no longer the cool, laid-back, rapping hippie NL stud. He's now the worst kind of limousine liberal, hypocritical sellout. Joe Sebok is no longer the friendly, likable son of the respected Barry Greenstein. He's now a liar, an apologist, and an embarrassment to his stepfather.

    The affiliates are about to become fractions of their former selves, with the three biggest sites shut off from American players. Many will probably cease to exist, and the biggest ones will see their multi-million-dollar businesses devalue faster than Las Vegas housing prices.

    The poker media, which overextended themselves based upon lucrative advertising contracts with online poker rooms, will have to greatly scale back operations. Many will remember them as greedy and afraid to tackle the most important story in poker history.

    A lot of good people will be losing their jobs and livelihoods due to the Department of Justice's recent actions. Feel sorry for those people. For those struggling who once acted as enablers for UB, I say good riddance.

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    Everytime Druff steps into a casino he knowingly supports the mob... hypocrite

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    Quote Originally Posted by donkdowndonedied View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Actually I don't feel bad for most of the players, because they shouldn't have continued playing there after the cheating scandals.

    The only ones I feel bad for are the UB/AP players who actually didn't know its history.
    You consistently put this belief forward. Why ? Why do you care that people were grinding the site ? You are more money driven than most from anything I can tell. YET you have consistently said people deserved to not be paid. What exactly is the grounds that you derive this belief from ?

    You come across as a woman who bitches about a skank because she is jealous that the skank is getting more action. Does the skank deserve something bad? Her jealous acquaintances might think so, but I fail to see it. Same thing with UB/AP. I had 4 figures on there (not impressive), but I also realize that a lot of it was fraudalent fake $$ which exists in a lot of poker games outside of B&M poker rooms.

    The fact that you openly wish honest players are fucked over speaks volumes of your own ethics. (Don't deny it either, I've heard it before and it has pissed me off)

    It is very possible that by bumhunting midstakes, I cost AP/UB more than they made off rake due to all the $100 a pop fraudsters.
    ^^This x1000

    You constantly go out of your way to share your worthless opinion that frankly nobody gives a fuck about. This is a completely different situation and just because you got fucked over by a site five years ago and you're too butthurt still to get over it is your own problem. YOU hoping that honest players with $$ on AP/UB don't get paid back and rubbing it in that they probably won't is pathetic and it obviously makes you feel better about yourself. Doing this isn't going to get you back whatever the fuck it is that you think you are still owed. If you were never personally affected by any of the cheating five years ago you know damn well you would have been playing on Cereus because of the softness of the games.

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuSTMeANuT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by donkdowndonedied View Post

    You consistently put this belief forward. Why ? Why do you care that people were grinding the site ? You are more money driven than most from anything I can tell. YET you have consistently said people deserved to not be paid. What exactly is the grounds that you derive this belief from ?

    You come across as a woman who bitches about a skank because she is jealous that the skank is getting more action. Does the skank deserve something bad? Her jealous acquaintances might think so, but I fail to see it. Same thing with UB/AP. I had 4 figures on there (not impressive), but I also realize that a lot of it was fraudalent fake $$ which exists in a lot of poker games outside of B&M poker rooms.

    The fact that you openly wish honest players are fucked over speaks volumes of your own ethics. (Don't deny it either, I've heard it before and it has pissed me off)

    It is very possible that by bumhunting midstakes, I cost AP/UB more than they made off rake due to all the $100 a pop fraudsters.
    ^^This x1000

    You constantly go out of your way to share your worthless opinion that frankly nobody gives a fuck about. This is a completely different situation and just because you got fucked over by a site five years ago and you're too butthurt still to get over it is your own problem. YOU hoping that honest players with $$ on AP/UB don't get paid back and rubbing it in that they probably won't is pathetic and it obviously makes you feel better about yourself. Doing this isn't going to get you back whatever the fuck it is that you think you are still owed. If you were never personally affected by any of the cheating five years ago you know damn well you would have been playing on Cereus because of the softness of the games.
    FALSE

    I would not have played there. It is insulting that you insist such a thing when I have no history of such hypocritical or greedy behavior.

    Here is a good example from modern times: Lock Poker.

    Lock never cheated me. They slow-payed me once for $300, but that's it. Yet I have been one of the loudest voices against them. Why do you think that is? They didn't cheat me. They didn't cheat any of my friends. And yet I continuously call them out when they fuck up, and never play there.

    People who continued playing on AP/UB after the scandal were supporting a company that cheated everyone several times, and ultimately ended up cheating everyone again.

    Regulars there were acting as unpaid props.

    Do you think donks would sit around all day alone at a table, waiting for others to sit?

    Of course not. They would log on, see that there was nobody playing, and log back off -- probably never depositing in the first place.

    All of the grinders who continued to play on AP/UB were creating games and keeping the action going there. Had everyone gotten together and stayed away from that awful company after the scandal, it would have withered and died, and had just a fraction of its former traffic.

    Instead, the greedy continued to play there, and kept AP/UB as the undisputed #3 largest site in the world.

    I have no sympathy for these people. It is fitting that AP/UB stole from them a final time before it was all over.

    Read my blog above and try to counter any of the points I made, aside from nonsense speculation that I only care because I personally got cheated.

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    BTW, while I obviously had no money on AP/UB, I had like 1.6 million FPPs (or whatever they were called), which I believe had a value of over $10,000.

    Every so often their system would fuck up and let me convert it $250 per month (which I then cashed out), but usually it wouldn't without continuing to play and raise my VIP level (which I would never do).

    I could have just bought a shitload of stuff from their store, which in hindsight was a mistake not doing.

    Anyway, when I heard UB went down, my reaction wasn't, "Oh crap, there goes $10k+ worth of points!"

    My reaction was, "Good. I've been waiting for this moment for years."

    Why?

    Because seeing UB go down in flames was more important to me than personal gain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    The licencing body that operated both Absolute Poker and Ultimate Bet, under the parent organisation of Blanca Games, has released an advisory note confirming that they have reached an agreement with the Department of Justice.

    Following the events of Black Friday in April 2011, many online gambling organisations saw civil proceedings brought against them by the Department of Justice. Under the plans, the US Government will claim ownership to the companies’ assets including deposited funds, receivables, hardware and intellectual property. In return the civil charges against Absolute Poker, Ultimate Bet, Absolute Entertainment, S.A., Blanca Games Inc., Hoop & Javelin Holding Limited, Hoop Payment Solution Services Limited and Morning Bliss Overseas Limited will all be dropped. The settlement between The Kahnawake Gaming Commission and the DoJ must wait upon official court approval.

    The note states that all of Blanca Games assets are to go into liquidation after being handed over to the DoJ. The statement reads:

    “The proposed settlement requires all of Blanca’s assets to be forfeited to the United States. The US Marshall’s office will be mandated to liquidate Blanca’s assets. However, there will be no distribution of the net proceeds from the liquidation pending the resolution of claims filed by other parties who have asserted an ownership interest in Blanca’s assets.”

    This means that several companies will obtain funds following the sale of Blanca’s assets in priority to players who are awaiting repayment from money lost to the Absolute Poker or Ultimate Bet sites. The report does state however that should there be any funds left after these companies have received payment then players will be given the chance to claim their money back. The statement says:

    “If the court approves the settlement, and if there are Blanca assets remaining after the resolution of claims by other parties, it is anticipated that the court will provide a process for players to make claims against those assets.”

    However, it appears that players are being left in the dark regarding when and how they can claim their money back, as the statement goes on to say:

    “At present the commission has no information as to how players should make such a claim.”

    The Kahnawake Gaming Commission has dissociated themselves with the Blanca Games company, claiming that their gaming license expired on 2nd June and closing the statement by noting:

    “The commission no longer regulates Blanca.”

    Unfortunately, Blanca Games have not been as lucky as their rival Full Tilt Poker, who was accused of fraudulent activity by the DoJ before being acquired by their previous rival Poker Stars. It was the Poker Stars organisation who repaid all customers following negotiations with the DoJ. The Full Tilt Poker website is now expecting to be relaunched in November. It appears such actions will not be taken to ensure full repayment of Absolute Poker and Ultimate Bet players.
    http://www.thisisnorthdevon.co.uk/Ab...ail/story.html

    The DOJ failed the US poker players who were defrauded in many ways.

    For starters they stopped US players from collecting allowing the Canadians and Euros to run on the bank. Its hard for me to believe that we cannot find poker site owners. Should the many pros who were paid be forced to be treated as insiders and return funds paid to them as dictated under bankruptcy regulations? Kahnawake Gaming Commission should also have to return money to the estate. I believe that the software design company was also made whole disadvantaging player funds. I would guess that other managers of the firms absconded with funds.

    The reality is that this is an undeclared bankruptcy forced by the DOJ and the DOJ failed to protect its citizen creditors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Belly Buster View Post
    So shareholders (owners) are prioritised over deposit holders (players).

    Total bullshit. Supposed to be Department of Justice. No Justice here.

    Also link is broken. Not often North Devon gets the scoop on anything other than a purse theft at Bideford Tescos.
    They removed it.

    I wonder if AP threatened them with a lawsuit or something.
    This was actually an "advertorial" placed by a third-party marketing firm on behalf of PokerStars. It was pulled once we found the marketing firm responsible and asked PokerSars for comment.

    The whole contents of the 'article' is pulled from a press release that's ~four months old.

    http://pokerfuse.com/news/media-and-...d-story-04-11/

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    Quote Originally Posted by nick-pokerfuse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post

    They removed it.

    I wonder if AP threatened them with a lawsuit or something.
    This was actually an "advertorial" placed by a third-party marketing firm on behalf of PokerStars. It was pulled once we found the marketing firm responsible and asked PokerSars for comment.

    The whole contents of the 'article' is pulled from a press release that's ~four months old.

    http://pokerfuse.com/news/media-and-...d-story-04-11/
    Thanks, Nick.

    Wow, how weird!

    But everything in that "advertorial" was true, right? I don't believe any of that information has changed in the past 4 months.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by nick-pokerfuse View Post

    This was actually an "advertorial" placed by a third-party marketing firm on behalf of PokerStars. It was pulled once we found the marketing firm responsible and asked PokerSars for comment.

    The whole contents of the 'article' is pulled from a press release that's ~four months old.

    http://pokerfuse.com/news/media-and-...d-story-04-11/
    Thanks, Nick.

    Wow, how weird!

    But everything in that "advertorial" was true, right?
    I didn't read the ad thoroughly but yeah, i think it was accurate and to the best of my knowledge nothing has changed since,

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    I have to pose the following additional question: why did the DOJ take action when they acted?

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    Quote Originally Posted by apub View Post
    I have to pose the following additional question: why did the DOJ take action when they acted?
    What do you mean? I don't understand your question.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by apub View Post
    I have to pose the following additional question: why did the DOJ take action when they acted?
    What do you mean? I don't understand your question.
    Why did the DOJ take action when they did?
    Was this a random act? Why did they not take action a month earlier or a year earlier.
    If this act was not random; why did they act when they did? What forces and parties prompted their actions?

    I hope this is more clear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Regulars there were acting as unpaid props.

    Do you think donks would sit around all day alone at a table, waiting for others to sit?

    Of course not. They would log on, see that there was nobody playing, and log back off -- probably never depositing in the first place.

    All of the grinders who continued to play on AP/UB were creating games and keeping the action going there. Had everyone gotten together and stayed away from that awful company after the scandal, it would have withered and died, and had just a fraction of its former traffic.

    Instead, the greedy continued to play there, and kept AP/UB as the undisputed #3 largest site in the world.

    I have no sympathy for these people. It is fitting that AP/UB stole from them a final time before it was all over.

    Read my blog above and try to counter any of the points I made, aside from nonsense speculation that I only care because I personally got cheated.
    I missed this originally.

    Lol @ calling people "the greedy". The fact is people bumhunting on a site do almost nothing to help the site. All bumhunters really impact is the existence of other bumhunters. You have some twisted view where... meh. AP/UB had yebsite et al going through making multiple $100 deposits which he donks off to midlimit regulars. So the site takes a $100 loss... You think they get that back when we're paying either .20-.50 a hand in rake ?

    I didn't read your "blog" or whatever.. but I'm sure I could guess what it says. I'll add this. This is an issue with entitlement and Dan Druff HATING to see others getting money where he refuses to play.

    Rofl.. your spin.. Because you don't like up/ap, now regulars are "unpaid props". WTFever.

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