The God Delusion and Religion

[Muhammad bin Abd Al Aziz]

Salaam my friends!

I am disapoint but not surprise your disbelief, worship of false mesiah, eg. Jesus (Isa) ect. Fear not my freinds, it is of dutey of evry Muslim to educate INFIDEL and especialey dirty JEW in techings of merciful Allah (swt), and his mesenger the Prophet (pbuh), Islam, beutiful RELIGION of peace and mercy.

For exampels: without RELIGION, we wuld lack guidings on grate religios significants of passing of WIND (farting).

Considder the folowing pasages from Hadith (life of Prophet (pbuh)):

• Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet (pbuh) said, "Allah does not accept prayer of anyone of you if he passes wind (Hadath) till he performs the ablution (anew)."
• Narrated 'Abbas bin Tamim: My uncle asked Allah's Apostle about a person who imagined to have passed wind during the prayer. Allah' Apostle replied: "He should not leave his prayers unless he hears sound or smells something."

Noteing my friends: wise Prophet tel us not only to avoid pasing WIND (hadath) during prayer, but defineth such pasing (hearing or smeling of FART) to asist those who no knot whether they have farted. Praise be to Allah (swt) for this grate achieveing of Islamic jurisprudence!

And the gifts of Allah (swt) do not end here, my freinds. Truely, we are blesd with manny teacheings of this subject of grate religous importants. Considder:

• Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "When the call to prayer (Adhan) is pronounced Satan takes to his heels and passes wind with noise during his flight in order not to hear the Adhan.”
• Narrated 'Abdullah bin Zam'a: The Prophet forbade laughing at a person who passes wind.
• Abu Sa'id: the Prophet (pbuh) tells that the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said: On the Day of Judgment there will be a flag fixed behind the buttocks of every person guilty of the breach of faith

Argueing no further my freinds, now ye no the truth!! Yea verily!! Ye who dout of RELIGION embrace Islam!

• Without Islam your ears wil be filled with the mighty TRUMPETTING of the anus of Satan!!
• And on the last Day, there wil be a mighty parting of the BUTOCKS of the infidels, and the sinful wind of hadath will cause them many lamentations and much flaping of the flags, and verily, he who SNIGER at such farting, lamentating and flaping will be bannished to HELL fire!!

Allahu Akhbar!

[Sloppy Joe]

Salaam my friends!

I am disapoint but not surprise your disbelief, worship of false mesiah, eg. Jesus (Isa) ect. Fear not my freinds, it is of dutey of evry Muslim to educate INFIDEL and especialey dirty JEW in techings of merciful Allah (swt), and his mesenger the Prophet (pbuh), Islam, beutiful RELIGION of peace and mercy.

For exampels: without RELIGION, we wuld lack guidings on grate religios significants of passing of WIND (farting).

Considder the folowing pasages from Hadith (life of Prophet (pbuh)):

• Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet (pbuh) said, "Allah does not accept prayer of anyone of you if he passes wind (Hadath) till he performs the ablution (anew)."
• Narrated 'Abbas bin Tamim: My uncle asked Allah's Apostle about a person who imagined to have passed wind during the prayer. Allah' Apostle replied: "He should not leave his prayers unless he hears sound or smells something."

Noteing my friends: wise Prophet tel us not only to avoid pasing WIND (hadath) during prayer, but defineth such pasing (hearing or smeling of FART) to asist those who no knot whether they have farted. Praise be to Allah (swt) for this grate achieveing of Islamic jurisprudence!

And the gifts of Allah (swt) do not end here, my freinds. Truely, we are blesd with manny teacheings of this subject of grate religous importants. Considder:

• Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "When the call to prayer (Adhan) is pronounced Satan takes to his heels and passes wind with noise during his flight in order not to hear the Adhan.”
• Narrated 'Abdullah bin Zam'a: The Prophet forbade laughing at a person who passes wind.
• Abu Sa'id: the Prophet (pbuh) tells that the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said: On the Day of Judgment there will be a flag fixed behind the buttocks of every person guilty of the breach of faith

Argueing no further my freinds, now ye no the truth!! Yea verily!! Ye who dout of RELIGION embrace Islam!

• Without Islam your ears wil be filled with the mighty TRUMPETTING of the anus of Satan!!
• And on the last Day, there wil be a mighty parting of the BUTOCKS of the infidels, and the sinful wind of hadath will cause them many lamentations and much flaping of the flags, and verily, he who SNIGER at such farting, lamentating and flaping will be bannished to HELL fire!!

Allahu Akhbar!

Do your best to try and convert 408. Allah AKBAR!

[408Mike]

Natural selection and evolution are sufficient to explain everything about the world around us. A logical person would not conclude that they are the tools used by an inexplicable higher power to create a viable ecosystem; that would be illogical. Rather, it offers rational reasoning as to how ecosystems are sustainable and how some species prevailed over others. The hypothetical presence of a knob-twiddling deity is laughable when thrown in the face of natural selection. I concede that I find the anthropic principle unsatisfying in concern to the 'first first' thing or whatever, but I accept that science does not have an answer for everything. I hope someday it will.

I was referring in my post to the origin of living things, not the manner in which evolution changes them. I'm on board with science and evolution and understand natural selection quite well; the fact that species evolve in no way negates the possibility of a first first, or even of an actively involved, sentient God. In fact, it is illogical that some Christians (and some atheists as well) consider belief in a Creator and science to be at odds. They can both be true.

Why is it we both say the same message yet people understand you and not me? I need to brush up on my people skills...Anyway this is what I have been trying to say the whole time. Science and Faith are NOT mutually exclusive, one does not disprove the other. It is ignorant in my opinion to wholly discredit the other side of the argument particularly when discussing something as important and galvanizing as we are.

It is also not only ignorant but childish and disrespectful to incessantly lob snide remarks such "knob-twiddling deity" and as such this thread is dead to me. Not for one single post not ONE did op give me or my side an inch of respect. Your piss poor attitude is a very solid testament to what i see from atheistic liberals every single day. I love discourse as much as the next person and truth be told this thread is exactly what I hope NOT to see on this forum. The disrespect, ignorance and downright contempt op showed me is just appalling.

Shame on me for wasting my time trying to help you back on venom. What a complete waste of time and emotion.

Science and faith are mutually exclusive by definition, no? Science is based on empirical data, faith by definition is belief that is not based on proof. I don't really see any grey area between the two or how religious people can attempt to find some middle ground. If you believe, fine. But trying to rationalize it through a scientific paradigm is a cop out.

I'm sorry that I've offended you 408, I just think your beliefs are baseless. This thread has led to some interesting discourse and the only trolling I recall was you calling me an arrogant prick. I showed as much respect as possible as you make claims with your bible quotes and defend everything with YOU BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART, YOUR HEART TELLS YOU THE TRUTH. It seems like a common move for people with faith to demonize atheists when they feel threatened. Ad hominem attacks instantly discredit anything.

Also, LOL at lumping together all atheists as liberals. I would hope for the sake of competitive balance that not all conservatives are believers.

Well first off I assume our pissing contest is over. I apologize for the name calling, my reasoning was because it really annoyed me that after waiting a damn year to hear your trip report instead I am greeted by a bunch of crap about why you aren't religious. Hey enjoy your life, it's not my job or desire to convert anyone only God can soften the heart. I felt jipped and lets be honest here, you could have delivered sick pictures, recipes, people that you met etc. You went to fucking NEPAL and the first thing you bring up is the ignorance of religious folk? Come on now...

I never demonized you or your beliefs, in fact I referenced a known statement by pascal, that there is enough light for those who want to see and darkness for those who don't. It's your life your choice your soul and your own free will to do as you please. You will find support and acceptance no matter which route you choose. Keep in mind though, it IS a choice that you are making.

I will say, science and faith need each other. Let's keep in mind it's illogical to tell someone God created everything but not explain how He did it. Conversely some things are beyond explanation scientifically. The big bang is a theory and not a hypothesis, same with gravity, for a key reason which I am sure you understand. You can see evidence that gravity exists but you can not measure it nor can you test a working hypothesis thus it's just a theory. Same with the big bang, instinct in animals etc, and for a large number of people, the existence of God. His existence is as real to me as gravity to you, hope that clears things up. It is ultimately illogical that we fight over things so trivial. Have we learned nothing since the bloody massacres dotting mankind's history?

Now, about the TR from Nepal...

[408Mike]

Salaam my friends!

I am disapoint but not surprise your disbelief, worship of false mesiah, eg. Jesus (Isa) ect. Fear not my freinds, it is of dutey of evry Muslim to educate INFIDEL and especialey dirty JEW in techings of merciful Allah (swt), and his mesenger the Prophet (pbuh), Islam, beutiful RELIGION of peace and mercy.

For exampels: without RELIGION, we wuld lack guidings on grate religios significants of passing of WIND (farting).

Considder the folowing pasages from Hadith (life of Prophet (pbuh)):

• Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet (pbuh) said, "Allah does not accept prayer of anyone of you if he passes wind (Hadath) till he performs the ablution (anew)."
• Narrated 'Abbas bin Tamim: My uncle asked Allah's Apostle about a person who imagined to have passed wind during the prayer. Allah' Apostle replied: "He should not leave his prayers unless he hears sound or smells something."

Noteing my friends: wise Prophet tel us not only to avoid pasing WIND (hadath) during prayer, but defineth such pasing (hearing or smeling of FART) to asist those who no knot whether they have farted. Praise be to Allah (swt) for this grate achieveing of Islamic jurisprudence!

And the gifts of Allah (swt) do not end here, my freinds. Truely, we are blesd with manny teacheings of this subject of grate religous importants. Considder:

• Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "When the call to prayer (Adhan) is pronounced Satan takes to his heels and passes wind with noise during his flight in order not to hear the Adhan.”
• Narrated 'Abdullah bin Zam'a: The Prophet forbade laughing at a person who passes wind.
• Abu Sa'id: the Prophet (pbuh) tells that the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said: On the Day of Judgment there will be a flag fixed behind the buttocks of every person guilty of the breach of faith

Argueing no further my freinds, now ye no the truth!! Yea verily!! Ye who dout of RELIGION embrace Islam!

• Without Islam your ears wil be filled with the mighty TRUMPETTING of the anus of Satan!!
• And on the last Day, there wil be a mighty parting of the BUTOCKS of the infidels, and the sinful wind of hadath will cause them many lamentations and much flaping of the flags, and verily, he who SNIGER at such farting, lamentating and flaping will be bannished to HELL fire!!

Allahu Akhbar!

10/10 for the attention to detail, misspellings in the right places, correct Biblical references made into funny etc etc. THIS how you do it people.

[hutmaster]

Mike,

Don't get so offended. My comments weren't meant to be a personal attack, they apply equally to all Jesus freaks. You say my comments are slanderous but then you go and repeat the same illogical bullshit about Jesus being the only way and damned be the Jew or the moral Atheist. Let's also make something very clear, Jews and Atheists spend their time celebrating life.....it is Christianity that sits around waiting to die in the hope of an afterlife. The moral atheist does right because it is simply the correct thing to do, the Jesus freak does it because of fear or hope for some reward upon death.....two very different concepts.

Hut, if I didnt take things so personal I could never write with the passion and intensity that i do. It cannot be faked, as many have tried and failed. Consider my sensitivity and my openness to share emotions as my gift to these forums for the sake of your entertainment.

It pains me to read what you just said, much more than you know. I know you are an honest and moral man, you wouldn't say how you feel if you did not have a legit reason to do so. To hear you say, in short, that atheists and Jews love life while Christians look forward to death- who was it that was such a piss poor example for you that you would believe such rubbish??? That is what it is, rubbish.

Christianity is centered around a couple key fundamentals- Our primary calling is getting to know God, plain and simple. He wants us to seek Him out and develop a close personal relationship with Him. The second is to love thy neighbor as one loveth thyself.

Matthew 22:37-40, "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

it's not vey complicated and it's very sad to me when I meet or talk to people with such an inaccurate and convoluted view of what being a Christian means. I don't think about death because in Him I find eternal life.

As Jesus said in John 17:3,

"And this is eternal life that they may know you, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

Is being a good person enough to get you into heaven?

The Apostle Paul wrote in Romans 10:9-10,

"That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

So no, we Christians do not look forward to death for in Christ we look forward to life eternal. I never said damned be the Jew or the good atheist, ultimately I am no one's judge. I have the Bible and Scripture to go off of but I am not God and not for one second would I ever think I speak for HIm and know what His judgement will be for any person. That would be ludicrous. On top of that I would never damn anyone or say something so spiteful and negative. If you do not exercise your God given FREE WILL in this life then you might as well be a programmed robot. God gave us free will to see what we will do with it and if you choose to come to him willingly, it pleases Him. Don't you want to make the being that created you happy?

I am truly sorry religion has let you down and led you astray. If you can find it in your heart to move past whatever has been holding you back, know that He is waiting to hear from you.

Deuteronomy 7:9
"Know therefore that the LORD your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commands."

Mike,

A few issues with your post. First, you wear your heart on your sleeve and for this I commend you. If your beliefs work for you then fantastic, but the real problem with ALL religion is it tends to breed fanaticism. Fanaticism is why more people have died in the name of religion than for any other reason.

It is indisputable that Christians can't wait to die. Let's not play semantics...you say eternal life meaning the afterlife and thus proving my point. The reason for a Christian to do good is because of an ultimate reward or punishment. The reason for a Jew or an Atheist to do good is because doing so has intrinsic value...it makes the here and now a better place, no need to worry about what comes next.

You say you would never damn a non-believer but by stating that the only way to be saved is by accepting Jesus, you do exactly what you profess not to do. Go ask any "born-again" where the moral Jew or Atheist goes after death and if they say anything other then hell, they are lying about their beliefs. When my father was on his deathbed (note he was a proud Jew) a friend of my sister asked if she could come to his room with her father and ask if he wanted to accept Christ. I wanted to punch her in the fucking face. So out of line and offensive and she was too stupid to realize it. That is the arrogance of Christianity that I hate.

You will say you aren't arrogant, but yet you will find reason to try and make me accept your beliefs as my own in-order to "save me." Jews have no such arrogance. When was the last time you saw a Jewish Missionary? As the Talmud teaches all major religions strive for the same mountaintop.

[Vwls]

Wow Muhammad bin Abd Al Aziz is a truly dedicated dupe - kudos.

[Crowe Diddly]

If there is no God, then there is no good and evil, and all morality then is simply subjective.

This is a logical fallacy, patently untrue, and insulting to the millions and millions of atheists around the world who live their lives with great integrity and morality.

[Ricky]

[Sitting Out]

If there is no God, then there is no good and evil, and all morality then is simply subjective.

This is a logical fallacy, patently untrue, and insulting to the millions and millions of atheists around the world who live their lives with great integrity and morality.

Religion's primary obligation is to provide guidance on what it believes to be good and what it considers evil; it's the laws by which its followers live and abide to. When different religious beliefs are in conflict with each other (including infidels), we have classic disputes. I don't think 408 meant anything insulting, just a poor choice of words that are open to different interpretations.

[Baron Von Strucker]

Here is my church





and here is how we pray




to each there own

[Bootsy Collins]

My path in life is led by this man.

[mulva]

First off, props to Druff for making a user-friendly forum that seems to be on the right track. I have been a reader/small time poster since NWP and am glad that the right person is back making the decisions.

I have been agnostic for as long as I can remember and have always found organized religion to be cultish and brainwashing but never was comfortable labeling myself an atheist until reading The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. Probably a moonlanding, but this book does a great job fleshing out the issues that had always hung me up from full blown atheism. After reading this book and some subsequent stuff on cosmology etc., I really don't see how any intelligent human being could partake in organized religion. I have lived in Nepal for the last year immersed in a culture of Hinduism/Buddhism and find the whole thing laughable. Are people just reluctant to admit that life has an expiration date? What the fuck is wrong with humanity waging wars over some shit some dudes threw together in books? How has the advancement of Darwinism and the EVIDENCE around the world not been sufficient to dissuade people from wasting their lives believing in fairy tale? How much more efficient and logical would the world be if the majority of humanity rejected religion?

/endrant

ban

[tony bagadonuts]

Mike,

A few issues with your post. First, you wear your heart on your sleeve and for this I commend you. If your beliefs work for you then fantastic, but the real problem with ALL religion is it tends to breed fanaticism. Fanaticism is why more people have died in the name of religion than for any other reason.

It is indisputable that Christians can't wait to die. Let's not play semantics...you say eternal life meaning the afterlife and thus proving my point. The reason for a Christian to do good is because of an ultimate reward or punishment. The reason for a Jew or an Atheist to do good is because doing so has intrinsic value...it makes the here and now a better place, no need to worry about what comes next.

You say you would never damn a non-believer but by stating that the only way to be saved is by accepting Jesus, you do exactly what you profess not to do. Go ask any "born-again" where the moral Jew or Atheist goes after death and if they say anything other then hell, they are lying about their beliefs. When my father was on his deathbed (note he was a proud Jew) a friend of my sister asked if she could come to his room with her father and ask if he wanted to accept Christ. I wanted to punch her in the fucking face. So out of line and offensive and she was too stupid to realize it. That is the arrogance of Christianity that I hate.

You will say you aren't arrogant, but yet you will find reason to try and make me accept your beliefs as my own in-order to "save me." Jews have no such arrogance. When was the last time you saw a Jewish Missionary? As the Talmud teaches all major religions strive for the same mountaintop.

Hut, I believe you have related the story of your father and the idiot bible thumper, and it truly is outrageous and I understand why you feel the way you do. But your comment on it being indisputable that Christians can't wait to die is just flat out wrong. Not just wrong, but not even close.

Nobody want's to die, it's part of the human condition to demand to live. It's also part of that same condition that causes us to question, speculate, and try to understand what comes after.

I will say that born-again converts to any religion are the absolute worst. Many born-agains get there because of tremendous trauma they have suffered, and for that I empathize, but for fuck sake leave me out of it.

[tony bagadonuts]

[Corrigan]

408 must have joined OVERCOME

[BCR]

Hut, if I didnt take things so personal I could never write with the passion and intensity that i do. It cannot be faked, as many have tried and failed. Consider my sensitivity and my openness to share emotions as my gift to these forums for the sake of your entertainment.

It pains me to read what you just said, much more than you know. I know you are an honest and moral man, you wouldn't say how you feel if you did not have a legit reason to do so. To hear you say, in short, that atheists and Jews love life while Christians look forward to death- who was it that was such a piss poor example for you that you would believe such rubbish??? That is what it is, rubbish.

Christianity is centered around a couple key fundamentals- Our primary calling is getting to know God, plain and simple. He wants us to seek Him out and develop a close personal relationship with Him. The second is to love thy neighbor as one loveth thyself.

Matthew 22:37-40, "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

it's not vey complicated and it's very sad to me when I meet or talk to people with such an inaccurate and convoluted view of what being a Christian means. I don't think about death because in Him I find eternal life.

As Jesus said in John 17:3,

"And this is eternal life that they may know you, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

Is being a good person enough to get you into heaven?

The Apostle Paul wrote in Romans 10:9-10,

"That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

So no, we Christians do not look forward to death for in Christ we look forward to life eternal. I never said damned be the Jew or the good atheist, ultimately I am no one's judge. I have the Bible and Scripture to go off of but I am not God and not for one second would I ever think I speak for HIm and know what His judgement will be for any person. That would be ludicrous. On top of that I would never damn anyone or say something so spiteful and negative. If you do not exercise your God given FREE WILL in this life then you might as well be a programmed robot. God gave us free will to see what we will do with it and if you choose to come to him willingly, it pleases Him. Don't you want to make the being that created you happy?

I am truly sorry religion has let you down and led you astray. If you can find it in your heart to move past whatever has been holding you back, know that He is waiting to hear from you.

Deuteronomy 7:9
"Know therefore that the LORD your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commands."

Mike,

A few issues with your post. First, you wear your heart on your sleeve and for this I commend you. If your beliefs work for you then fantastic, but the real problem with ALL religion is it tends to breed fanaticism. Fanaticism is why more people have died in the name of religion than for any other reason.

It is indisputable that Christians can't wait to die. Let's not play semantics...you say eternal life meaning the afterlife and thus proving my point. The reason for a Christian to do good is because of an ultimate reward or punishment. The reason for a Jew or an Atheist to do good is because doing so has intrinsic value...it makes the here and now a better place, no need to worry about what comes next.

You say you would never damn a non-believer but by stating that the only way to be saved is by accepting Jesus, you do exactly what you profess not to do. Go ask any "born-again" where the moral Jew or Atheist goes after death and if they say anything other then hell, they are lying about their beliefs. When my father was on his deathbed (note he was a proud Jew) a friend of my sister asked if she could come to his room with her father and ask if he wanted to accept Christ. I wanted to punch her in the fucking face. So out of line and offensive and she was too stupid to realize it. That is the arrogance of Christianity that I hate.

You will say you aren't arrogant, but yet you will find reason to try and make me accept your beliefs as my own in-order to "save me." Jews have no such arrogance. When was the last time you saw a Jewish Missionary? As the Talmud teaches all major religions strive for the same mountaintop.

That is an absurd statement, and factually couldn't be any more incorrect. I'm not taking sides on the theological debate between agnostics and Christians, but my vast experiences with Christians is that they view life as both all important, and love of the world as unimportant. There is a distinct difference there. In other words, there is work to be done on this side of the fence that simply can't be achieved on the other. Tools built in life, can't be built in the afterlife, for the simple reason that once confronted with an all knowing, all-loving God, who would choose ever to disobey? Work done when in a state of free will because of faith is an experience that can't be replicated after death. In reality, most Christians as they near death are more concerned with whether they have gotten where they need to be, are ready, did enough, and generally wish for more time to grow closer to God and learn more in the fraction of time that a human lifespan is.

When you hear Christians say, "I'm just so happy to go home to the Lord" when they are sick is really just the Kubler-Ross acceptance stage which we all go through when confronted with death articulated in accordance with their personal view of death. It certainly isn't a death wish, or anything remotely close. It's acceptance, and a faith that though they would sure like to have a few more years, that God ultimately is in control, and knows best when someone's progression has came to an end.

Once again, this isn't an argument for Christianity, just more a glimpse into how they think, and how far off your assessment is.

[408Mike]

Mike,

A few issues with your post. First, you wear your heart on your sleeve and for this I commend you. If your beliefs work for you then fantastic, but the real problem with ALL religion is it tends to breed fanaticism. Fanaticism is why more people have died in the name of religion than for any other reason.

It is indisputable that Christians can't wait to die. Let's not play semantics...you say eternal life meaning the afterlife and thus proving my point. The reason for a Christian to do good is because of an ultimate reward or punishment. The reason for a Jew or an Atheist to do good is because doing so has intrinsic value...it makes the here and now a better place, no need to worry about what comes next.

You say you would never damn a non-believer but by stating that the only way to be saved is by accepting Jesus, you do exactly what you profess not to do. Go ask any "born-again" where the moral Jew or Atheist goes after death and if they say anything other then hell, they are lying about their beliefs. When my father was on his deathbed (note he was a proud Jew) a friend of my sister asked if she could come to his room with her father and ask if he wanted to accept Christ. I wanted to punch her in the fucking face. So out of line and offensive and she was too stupid to realize it. That is the arrogance of Christianity that I hate.

You will say you aren't arrogant, but yet you will find reason to try and make me accept your beliefs as my own in-order to "save me." Jews have no such arrogance. When was the last time you saw a Jewish Missionary? As the Talmud teaches all major religions strive for the same mountaintop.

That is an absurd statement, and factually couldn't be any more incorrect. I'm not taking sides on the theological debate between agnostics and Christians, but my vast experiences with Christians is that they view life as both all important, and love of the world as unimportant. There is a distinct difference there. In other words, there is work to be done on this side of the fence that simply can't be achieved on the other. Tools built in life, can't be built in the afterlife, for the simple reason that once confronted with an all knowing, all-loving God, who would choose ever to disobey? Work done when in a state of free will because of faith is an experience that can't be replicated after death. In reality, most Christians as they near death are more concerned with whether they have gotten where they need to be, are ready, did enough, and generally wish for more time to grow closer to God and learn more in the fraction of time that a human lifespan is.

When you hear Christians say, "I'm just so happy to go home to the Lord" when they are sick is really just the Kubler-Ross acceptance stage which we all go through when confronted with death articulated in accordance with their personal view of death. It certainly isn't a death wish, or anything remotely close. It's acceptance, and a faith that though they would sure like to have a few more years, that God ultimately is in control, and knows best when someone's progression has came to an end.

Once again, this isn't an argument for Christianity, just more a glimpse into how they think, and how far off your assessment is.

You literally put my thoughts feelings and intentions into words and I have been failing to do so effectively recently. Thank you.

Hut, again I am very sorry that you have experienced such poor examples of Christians. Looking forward to death implies taking the gift of life for granted and this would be a direct slap in the face to God. Period. End of statement. I find it hard to believe you would ever even think it.

Look-the Bible tells me certain things and much about heaven and an afterlife is reiterated over and over again, but thats not what motivates me and never has. In truth, I can never see myself as ever being good enough to go to heaven and that will likely never change. My calling was perhaps unique- I have wondered about God's presence in my life as far back as I can remember. I investigated a number of times and I just could NOT make religion work for me. I would walk into church feeling foolish and walk out wondering why I still felt compelled to seek Him but going to church changed nothing, talking to Christians or Catholics did nothing for me etc. Looking back, I always believed in my heart- I knew really- that He existed but like any student I looked to my teacher and was let down time and time again.

About three years ago I befriended one of the owners of the nutrition store I managed and he was a cool dude, force RECON USMC, having been raised by a hardline marine I bonded with the guy right away. Here and there, over time, I noticed if I said anything religious or had any questions, with remarkable speed accuracy and close attention to detail he always could answer any questions I had about God, the Bible, the devil etc. I believe I was hung on the idea at the time that the Book of Revelations describes the end of the world and I was seeing evidence of this and it bothered me. Surprisingly my friend always had the right thing to say and knew the Bible well so I started talking to him more seriously and- I can't put this into words right now (I am exhausted) but---it was like, the answers I had been looking for, I knew when I would hear them, and finally I was.

Let me explain- if you go buy a chevy you might not know exactly what chevy you want but you KNOW when you sit in one and start her up if the engine sounds like you want it to. You don't know exactly what the engine will sound like before you hear it, you just head out knowing you want a chevy and when you hear the right one, your heart will know it. So it was for me, I asked questions and he gave the correct answers, every time, if that means anything. Weird I know, I had been to at least 10 churches with a variety of pastors and kept asking myself "WHY AM I MAKING THIS REAL? YOU DON'T FEEL IT, THESE PEOPLE HAVE FAITH AND SEE GOD BUT YOU DON'T. EITHER THEY ARE STUPID OR YOU ARE, OR NO ONE REALLY BELIEVES AND THEY ARE JUST BULLSHITTING HOPING TO GET TO HEAVEN BECAUSE THEY FUCKED UP IN LIFE". That's how it went for me from the time I was maybe 15 up till 28. Religious people were either crazy, stupid or just blessed that God liked them and yet I could not stop seeking Him out. I knew God existed, I felt His presence, I was compelled time and time again to seek Him out.

Finally one night everything changed for me. You know how often times people say things like "well if God is in fact real then He will give me a sign. Say or do something so I can know for sure. Why wouldn't He?" Well I got my sign let's put it that way. If at least 3 people say they want to hear the story I will tell it, otherwise let's just leave it at that.

Hut, I have never damned anyone and although the Bible does say numerous things about ascension into Heaven and how it might happen not for a second do I presume anything. I certainly do not think I know what's in store for anyone else when they die as I am not their judge. Plain and simple. I choose to be Christian because it makes sense to me and to my heart, because the best people I ever looked up to growing up were and are Christians, and because I have seen a positive change both in my life and in the lives of others as direct result of faith and a healthy Christian lifestyle.

Let's be real here- My church showed a movie a month ago, Courageous I think it was- and not only did the church offer- for free- a nice spaghetti dinner to ANYONE that came but you could grab fruit oatmeal to go, sodas water chips etc. This was for anyone, not just regular church goers, no mandated tithing. In fact regularly at night food is made and anyone is welcome to come and eat for free. No questions asked, nothing demanded.

Unsure what Christians you have come to know, but the ones I stick with and pattern myself after are very loving, caring, compassionate and selfless people. I think BCR said it best- that we are selfless about the world and that is very true. I have always hated money, at times I had as much as 10k in my pocket and it didn't make me feel a damned thing. I spent years hating myself and drinking and doing drugs to medicate the pain I felt every time I looked in the mirror. Ultimately I learned I hated because I hate the world as it is now, I hated money and the way it corrupts people, I hated how much it hurt to watch my parents grow old, how much injustice there was in the world etc etc. So am I looking forward to dying you might ask- no, I am not, and it feels great to say that.

If I am dead I can't be here to help a homeless person with mental problems cross the a busy street, I cannot be a positive role model for a fatherless child, can't scratch my cat and watch her face light up when i hit that spot that itches, the point is I found my reason for living and boils down to being alive to help others. My pastor once said "You want to hear the cure for depression? I have it right here, and it involves ten things. Try and stay with me here, it's a lot to remember. Step ONE- DO SOMETHING FOR SOMEONE ELSE. Step Two- REPEAT STEP ONE NINE MORE TIMES." Straight up truth right there.

I believe so many people are unhappy and depressed and medicated because they have spent their lives being told living a selfish life not only ok, it's to be admired. You need to worry about being cute or handsome, having 6 pack abs, rich, funny, whatever- all self worth can be derived through either material or superficial means. So people become used to thinking about themselves 24.7, always thinking about their money or shopping or flirting-you get the idea. If doing for others cures depression it stands to reason being selfish will lead to depression. Plain and simple.

One last thing- motivation for me comes from within, not from without. I do not fear death nor am I looking forward to it, I just want to make the world a better place one step at a time and to show respect love and admiration to my Heavenly Father as I am blown away by His creation each and every day. Heck in Bio today myself and two girls were working on a project and while rehashing the electron transport chain (part of cellular respiration-no i am not explaining it right now) I remarked at how incredible it was to see the detail and perfection that makes up the human body- so many things I mean take ATP Synthase for example it requires hydrogen to fuel it's turbine like action which then produces ATP from ADP and an inorganic phosphate molecule. WHere do these hydrogens come from? Well it gets long and trick but let me put it this way- I do not believe we evolved. I just don't. Natural selection having bred different traits into people of differing climate, ok, but no way can you explain away the complexity of a human or any other eukaryote as just some random events of chance over time with some specialization and adaptation to meet the needs of a changing environment. Sorry, no way. So out of admiration and respect I gladly give thanks to He who created us all because His work is good and it is amazing.

God is great!

[hutmaster]

Mike,

A few issues with your post. First, you wear your heart on your sleeve and for this I commend you. If your beliefs work for you then fantastic, but the real problem with ALL religion is it tends to breed fanaticism. Fanaticism is why more people have died in the name of religion than for any other reason.

It is indisputable that Christians can't wait to die. Let's not play semantics...you say eternal life meaning the afterlife and thus proving my point. The reason for a Christian to do good is because of an ultimate reward or punishment. The reason for a Jew or an Atheist to do good is because doing so has intrinsic value...it makes the here and now a better place, no need to worry about what comes next.

You say you would never damn a non-believer but by stating that the only way to be saved is by accepting Jesus, you do exactly what you profess not to do. Go ask any "born-again" where the moral Jew or Atheist goes after death and if they say anything other then hell, they are lying about their beliefs. When my father was on his deathbed (note he was a proud Jew) a friend of my sister asked if she could come to his room with her father and ask if he wanted to accept Christ. I wanted to punch her in the fucking face. So out of line and offensive and she was too stupid to realize it. That is the arrogance of Christianity that I hate.

You will say you aren't arrogant, but yet you will find reason to try and make me accept your beliefs as my own in-order to "save me." Jews have no such arrogance. When was the last time you saw a Jewish Missionary? As the Talmud teaches all major religions strive for the same mountaintop.

That is an absurd statement, and factually couldn't be any more incorrect. I'm not taking sides on the theological debate between agnostics and Christians, but my vast experiences with Christians is that they view life as both all important, and love of the world as unimportant. There is a distinct difference there. In other words, there is work to be done on this side of the fence that simply can't be achieved on the other. Tools built in life, can't be built in the afterlife, for the simple reason that once confronted with an all knowing, all-loving God, who would choose ever to disobey? Work done when in a state of free will because of faith is an experience that can't be replicated after death. In reality, most Christians as they near death are more concerned with whether they have gotten where they need to be, are ready, did enough, and generally wish for more time to grow closer to God and learn more in the fraction of time that a human lifespan is.

When you hear Christians say, "I'm just so happy to go home to the Lord" when they are sick is really just the Kubler-Ross acceptance stage which we all go through when confronted with death articulated in accordance with their personal view of death. It certainly isn't a death wish, or anything remotely close. It's acceptance, and a faith that though they would sure like to have a few more years, that God ultimately is in control, and knows best when someone's progression has came to an end.

Once again, this isn't an argument for Christianity, just more a glimpse into how they think, and how far off your assessment is.

Let me clear up something. When I said that Christians can't wait to die....I did not mean that literally they sit around hoping and waiting for the day. My point was that as a theology Christianity focuses on reward (heaven) or punishment (hell) as the rationale for being moral. The idea is be good now so you get something later. As far as God being all-loving is laughable. The Christian way of describing God and the path to the afterlife makes God out to be mean, unforgiving, and arrogant. Mainstream Christianity says one CAN'T go to heaven UNLESS one accepts Jesus as their savior! Mormonism goes a step further and requires you to be a Mormon in life in order to get to for lack of a better word the VIP section of heaven. Of course you can get there in steerage if you accept a Mormon baptism after death. When I think of the idea of a kind and loving God I see one who would say...."OK so you worshiped fake idols and denied my existence all your life but you lived a moral life, welcome to heaven." That is much more loving than the Christian model.

Anyways, I'm gonna end the argument / discussion here as I will never convince Mike to my views nor me to his. I lead my life as the best person I can and I don't feel I need religion to be an active part of my life to do so.

[tommyt]

I personally wear a gold rope chain with a crucifix on it. i wear it because i want to believe there is something out there. i cant say im not skeptic, but who isnt. its not like alot of people are like "man death was awsome, and also this is what the afterlife was like for 10 minutes" (if they did its most likely a delusion).