Jason Koon vs Dan Smith on asking people to be quiet during hands

[Dan Druff]

Embedded Tweet

https://twitter.com/RobKuhn_/status/1660635720267051008


This was at the high roller Triton series. Jason Koon was giving a hard time to Dan Smith, another pro player, for asking to "get a moment" and other players be quiet while he was thinking what to do in the hand.

Jason's point was that Smith did this far too frequently, especially in relatively easy spots preflop, and that it was turning off the "VIPs" (rich fish) they play with, as Koon claimed these VIPs were complaining Smith was making the events far less fun for them.

Most people agreed with Koon here, though some felt that Koon should have taken Smith aside and asked him quietly off the table to stop this behavior, rather than call it out as it occurred.

If Smith really was the fun kiljoy at these events, where it's important to keep the high roller rec players happy, I don't have much of a problem with Koon calling him out for repeated behavior like this.

Opinions?

[Dan Druff]

Here's the YouTube of the tournament in question:




The beginning of this incident was at 2:06:35, and then at 2:08:42, after the hand completed, that's when the full argument broke out.

[dwai]

Here's the YouTube of the tournament in question:




The beginning of this incident was at 2:06:35, and then at 2:08:42, after the hand completed, that's when the full argument broke out.

groundbreaking poker analysis by the commentator

"a lot going thru his mind right now, what kinds of hands is he shoving with, how do my hands play against those hands, if I call and lose"

[Dan Druff]

Embedded Tweet

https://twitter.com/JustinBonomo/status/1661178127681290240


Justin Bonomo is on Smith's side, so that makes me want to immediately back Koon in this argument.

[Dan Druff]

Koon decided to diffuse things.

Embedded Tweet

https://twitter.com/JasonKoon/status/1661304622491869184

[SlowRoll]

Smith seems like a reasonable guy on too much Adderall

[country978]

Koon decided to diffuse things.

Embedded Tweet

https://twitter.com/JasonKoon/status/1661304622491869184

I didn't think Dan did anything to deserve a harsh response from anyone. Jason was rude to speak up the way he did. Dan was polite in every way and considering the stakes it would seem perfectly reasonable to ask for a moment. Sure its annoying in the moment but why not just respond to kindness with kindness and stfu for half a minute?

[sah_24]

Koon decided to diffuse things.

Embedded Tweet

https://twitter.com/JasonKoon/status/1661304622491869184

I didn't think Dan did anything to deserve a harsh response from anyone. Jason was rude to speak up the way he did. Dan was polite in every way and considering the stakes it would seem perfectly reasonable to ask for a moment. Sure its annoying in the moment but why not just respond to kindness with kindness and stfu for half a minute?

Bc this dude does this all the time ... that is why lol.

[NickyPipes]

I’ll tell you one thing pal, all the juiciest poker games I’ve played in have been the loudest. Understand?

[Sloppy Joe]

The autistic clowns should be primed to talk if there's cameras recording.

The only watchable poker in history was when colorful characters like Hellmuth and Farha carried the torch and the show was heavily produced to pretend anynof these people has social skills.

[Dan Druff]

I’ll tell you one thing pal, all the juiciest poker games I’ve played in have been the loudest. Understand?

Correct.

As a pro player, you need to adapt yourself to the environment. You don't dictate the environment.

About 2 years ago, I was playing a full ring 40-80 at Bellagio and getting absolutely stomped on. Was down 4k which is a lot for that game, and it was about to break. Some youngish white guy (looked around early 30s) asked me, "You want to play heads up?"

I didn't know him, and he had just showed up. Didn't have an idea of how he played, but I will take on most live limit holdem players heads up, unless I know them to be very good. So I said yes. He asked if I minded if he ordered drinks. Obviously I told him to go ahead, picturing him quickly getting smashed and chunking off all his money to me.

Well, to my dismay, despite pounding drink after drink, the guy played fairly well, and remained both softspoken and sober-like. This went on for hours. I figured he must have the tolerance of an elephant. His play was the opposite of wild and reckless. If anything, he was a bit too tight for heads up, so this made the game play much smaller than normal 40-80 heads up.

We were around even most of the way. I was about to give up on this boring game, when an Asian guy, probably mid-30s sat down. By coincidence, minutes later, it was like someone turned on a switch on the first guy. He went from quiet, polite, and tight to a loud, raucous maniac. He was never rude or confrontational, but it was amazing how after hours of totally holding his liquor, he just flipped and became the loud drunk maniac.

And guess what? It turned out the new Asian player, who was NOT drunk and turned down offers for drinks, was just a natural maniac/gambler. So literally every hand was getting 5-bet preflop, and then there was tons of raising postflop, building huge pots won by mediocre hands. These guys didn't know each other and were NOT colluding. It was just a maniac drunk guy and a maniac gambler, and me.

So what did I do? Did I quietly sit there like a Robotron Limit Holdem Player (copyright 2008 Tyde) and wait for monster hands to crush these guys, and otherwise stay out of their way?

Fuck no. I was a maniac along with them, 5-betting some flops with bottom pair, being almost as talkative and obnoxious as the drunk guy. And the Asian dude was loving it, and despite being sober, he was also very talkative and laughing along with both of us as these crazy hands went down. I took some horrible beats on some hands for huge pots, but I kept smiling and laughing about the whole thing, as if it didn't bother me in the slightest.

At one point, the drunk dude ordered a meal from room service, had the salad from the meal in front of him, and put his 100 dollar bills in the salad like lettuce.



Eventually a few other players showed up, and were shocked at the state of this game. These people were quiet and getting annoyed that they were getting run off of bottom and middle pairs by our crazy raising. They wanted their ABC 40-80 limit game, and this wasn't it. Many of these people were regulars in the game who didn't know how to adjust.

Not only did I have a great time with this whole thing, but I also won $5k by the time the game filled and I stood up and left, so I got out of the $4k hole plus another 1000. By this point the drunk guy sobered up and the Asian dude left, so the game was back to normal -- plus it was full ring, so it became much tougher to fuck around with mediocre hands anyway.

My point is that I adjusted both my play and personality to the game around me. You need to do that when you play with guys who are there to have fun, and are making the game good. You want to encourage an environment where the losing players are enjoying themselves. If that means being loud and crazy along with them, you do it.

I can't speak to the "VIP" nosebleed scene that Dan Smith and Jason Koon play in, but I imagine it's basically the same concept. I can picture these rich fish being loud and having a good time, and Dan asking them "to have a moment" while he decides upon some kind of marginal spot. If Dan can't deal with that type of environment, then he shouldn't play at these stakes. Sure, it would be ideal for him if the fish showed up and quietly gave their money away, but often that's not reality. These guys are aware they're not as good as players like Koon and Smith, but they enjoy being part of the high roller scene, so they put up with the obvious fact that they're big underdogs. In return, the pros need to make sure that these players really do enjoy themselves as much as possible -- and at the very least, not interfere with such enjoyment.

People who say, "You have no idea what it's like to have that type of money on the line" are missing the point. The money doesn't matter. You need to be comfortable at whatever stakes you're playing, and willing to become part of that environment. If you aren't, you can drop down in stakes.

I would not be comfortable at those stakes, so I would never play them. Most people wouldn't. Dan Smith needs to either accept these games for what they are, or he can go play in an environment with worse games where everyone is polite and quiet.

[NickyPipes]

Brother that was a very interesting story. I would suggest you tell stories like that in your radio broadcast. It’s very good content for the users.

Brother do you find many wild, drunk types at limit hold ‘em live games often? It’s interesting to me that somebody pounding drinks would play limit rather than no limit.

Nobody puts a limit on Nicky Pipes pal I’ll tell you that much

[Dan Druff]

Brother that was a very interesting story. I would suggest you tell stories like that in your radio broadcast. It’s very good content for the users.

Brother do you find many wild, drunk types at limit hold ‘em live games often? It’s interesting to me that somebody pounding drinks would play limit rather than no limit.

Nobody puts a limit on Nicky Pipes pal I’ll tell you that much

This story came from my June 2021 trip, shortly after the COVID reopenings -- a visit I chose because Resorts World was finally opening that weekend, and I wanted to see it.

Several funny stories came from that trip -- some of which I can't post publicly. I'll tell the one later on about Brandon and I being in a restaurant, hearing we got "comped dessert for your birthday", and we were brought a giant tray of desserts for about 10 people. It was several months away from both of our birthdays, and neither of us claimed it was our birthday. So bizarre. Various other weird stuff happened during this meal leading up to it, which I'll tell another time.


To answer your question, I don't find that many wild limit holdem games. Usually good games revolve around loose-passive fish, or guys who don't understand when you can and can't effectively bluff in limit holdem. There will be true maniacs on occasion, though. I found that phenomenon more common online, which probably occurs when some of these guys pound drinks alone at home and foolishly open the online poker site. One time (online) I won $11k on a single table $30/$60 limit holdem game on New Years, shortly after midnight. Everyone but me was playing like they were drunk, even the players who were normally good.

Overall, however, live players tend to be weaker than online players. However, online you get in way more hands, so that can compensate for it if you're a favorite in the game.

I don't understand the reasoning behind drunk/bad players sitting at live limit games instead of no limit. I would understand if they normally play limit, but I can tell a lot of these guys don't, as sometimes they barely understand the rules. I think maybe the big-sounding game (40-80 limit) sounds more appealing to a drunk than 5-10 NL. I obviously can't ask them why they chose the limit game, because I don't want them to think better of it and leave.